56 réponses à ce sujet

[Karlone123]

ME3 is my least favourite in the series, but it does certainly have its qualities. I will only be discussing my like for that Shepard can lose battles in ME3. While Shepard is forced to lose in terms of storyline, I liked it...a lot. I like that losing can show that Shepard does have vulnerabilities and can make the enemy seem like an actual threat. I do hope Bioware takes note of that and continues to use that sort of element, that our protagonists are capable of having flaws and are not able to always win every battle.

 

[Eleonora]

The protagonist shouldn't always win every battle, but losing a battle does have to make some kind of sense. The execution of the scene on Thessia (massive plot armor for an enemy that's actually a huge joke, incompetent squad mates) left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Commandr_Shepard]

Wrong. I should always win.

[Gileadan]

You should win if you play well enough to do so, and lose if not. I don't mind a forced loss (because drama...) if it's executed well, but Thessia was so ham-fisted and awkward that it made me angry while Shepard was wailing about the "failure". Thessia didn't make Kai Leng feel like a threat, more like a rubber roach that somehow no amount of beatdown could kill.

[Lucca_de_Neon]

I would rather have to face impossible odds and flee because it's my decision more than losing because it's part of the script

[Gileadan]

I would rather have to face impossible odds and flee because it's my decision more than losing because it's part of the script

Me too... except that I might feel challenged to take down the seemingly impossible odds anyway. And should that succeed but get ignored by the game, I'd be cheesed off again. It's very hard to get right.

 

I recall this mission in the original StarCraft campaign where Sarah Kerrigan gets overwhelmed by the zerg at the end. After my first go, I promptly restarted the mission and built a gigantic fleet of battlecruisers that nuked every hive in sight and then hovered over the center of the map, waiting for the swarm to come running. As expected, the zerg got completely obliterated... but the story proceeded as before, of course. I wasn't amused. (I kept building the cruiser fleet on later replays anyway, because I could.)

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

If a character in the story is fighting a losing war, there should be defeats along the way. They should not build up false hopes in the player by making them appear invincible and expect an ending with a unicorn farting rainbows and candy.

 

I also think that in this day of voiced protagonists, in the interest of a high quality performance, that the protagonist be given a personality. The days of the silent protagonist are gone. And hopefully the days of the schizoid brick with bad monotone voice acting are gone as well. I don't mind playing a pre-defined character. 

 

In reality, they're predefined anyway since in a CRPG the choices are far more limited than they are in a pen and paper RPG where the GM can react to your every choice. Your choices are limited usually to three so as to keep a story from branching too much. With a CRPG we have to give up quite a bit of control. 

[KaiserShep]

Thessia wasn't handled all that well, and the biggest reason it sort of failed wasn't even because of the fact that we got that ridiculous blinding spotlight and Kai Leng's immunity boosts, but rather that Shepard HAD the data within her grasp and the scene turned into an inopportune exposition dump when the best and obvious thing to do would be to snag the data and attempt to access its information in a safer environment. 

[aoibhealfae]

There's still going to be a plot armor character. Like fighting Arcann several times and when you're finally want to kill him, deus ex scenes. I like it, add drama but it have to be in the middle of the game rather than late in the game. I agree, you can't keep winning all the time.

[countofhell]

ME3 is my least favourite in the series, but it does certainly have its qualities. I will only be discussing my like for that Shepard can lose battles in ME3. While Shepard is forced to lose in terms of storyline, I liked it...a lot. I like that losing can show that Shepard does have vulnerabilities and can make the enemy seem like an actual threat. I do hope Bioware takes note of that and continues to use that sort of element, that our protagonists are capable of having flaws and are not able to always win every battle.

Imao ME3 is a completely different game than ME1, ME2 in term of conflicts. Everywhere is a conflict and every civilization facing their own extinction, that is why Shepard can't manage to save every planet instead he is focusing on Big pictures.

And since we don't know yet what conflicts are waiting us in MEA we don't know if we can control every conflict in the game.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Thessia wasn't handled all that well, and the biggest reason it sort of failed wasn't even because of the fact that we got that ridiculous blinding spotlight and Kai Leng's immunity boosts, but rather that Shepard HAD the data within her grasp and the scene turned into an inopportune exposition dump when the best and obvious thing to do would be to snag the data and attempt to access its information in a safer environment. 

 

This was a classic moment of Shepard carrying the plot idiot ball. You were fighting against Cerberus, and the Geth, not the Reapers. But the real enemy was the Reapers, but we didn't know that. We thought we were winning. Humans, Turians, and now the Asari were getting harvested. The Batarians had been conquered and were being harvested. But Shepard was winning every single encounter. Your multi-player map showed that we were winning if you played multi-player. And now suddenly we find out that we're going to lose the war because the scene had us snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by being stupid. Bad writing is bad writing.

 

One could have written a line from one of your sidekicks "don't you think we should look at this on board the ship?" And have Shepard be a bit arrogant about it and pay the price. But I seriously doubt that there would be anything more than "download this, and let's get the hell out of here." EDI could crack the security protocol. 

 

There should have been some mission failures before this. A couple more missions like Jacob's except where you were evacuating key people and weren't able to get to them before the reapers, or having to extract before your positions were overrun. 

[wright1978]

Forced losses aren't satisfying imo. Personally i vastly prefer protagonist can't always win cleanly scenarios. Losing one of Kaidan/Ash on Virmire was painful and hard but didn't have cheap cheated air of Kai Leng fight. So for me there's many other ways of delaying the protagonists victory(and showing they aren't superhuman) rather than infuriating the player by adding poorly conceived forced defeats.

[10K]

Wrong. I should always win.

Yes you should Shepard, yes you should!!

[10K]

There's still going to be a plot armor character.

Sure there will be, but not done as badly as Kai lame. Please can you tell me why shepard and his two squad mates stood and did nothing while Thane fought Kai lame? Please can anyone explain that?

[KaiserShep]

Forced losses aren't satisfying imo. Personally i vastly prefer protagonist can't always win cleanly scenarios. Losing one of Kaidan/Ash on Virmire was painful and hard but didn't have cheap cheated air of Kai Leng fight. So for me there's many other ways of delaying the protagonists victory(and showing they aren't superhuman) rather than infuriating the player by adding poorly conceived forced defeats.

 

An example of forced failure that I actually enjoyed is the betrayal at Highever in DA:Origins. The castle was overrun and Bryce was already bleeding out, and the only thing left to do was flee. 

[aoibhealfae]

Sure there will be, but not done as badly as Kai lame. Please can you tell me why shepard and his two squad mates stood and did nothing while Thane fought Kai lame? Please can anyone explain that?

 

I was like.... "Thane, why are you running toward the sword?"

[10K]

I was like.... "Thane, why are you running toward the sword?"

I know right LOL!!

[Larry-3]

I do not believe a win or loss should be scripted. It should be determined by how you play. BioWare should just write each victory or loss into the main story.

This game is about choices, is it not?

[AlanC9]

The protagonist shouldn't always win every battle, but losing a battle does have to make some kind of sense. The execution of the scene on Thessia (massive plot armor for an enemy that's actually a huge joke, incompetent squad mates) left a bad taste in my mouth.

Everyone hates that. However, Bio did the same thing in KotOR with the first Malak fight, but got away with it then. I don't know why one worked but the other didn't.

[AlanC9]

I do not believe a win or loss should be scripted. It should be determined by how you play. BioWare should just write each victory or loss into the main story.
This game is about choices, is it not?

So the PC should be able to succeed at everything he tries?

[themikefest]

The whole Thessia thing with the wannabe assassin was a joke

 

I would've had Shepard and squad fighting the Leng guy, and when he cries about recharging the first time, the gunship unloads a few phantoms. Now Shepard and squad have to deal with more dirtbags. After a few moments the fighting is moved away from the beacon. Leng sees that the Phantom things are keeping Shepard and squad busy, and heads to the beacon to download the vendetta. Shepard sees what the Leng guy is doing and tries to stop him, but has to get to cover when one of the phantoms fires the palm thing. As Leng gets back on the gunship, the last of the Phantoms are killed.

 

Of course an easier way of doing that scene would be to have the ponytail order the gunship to fire at the supports after TIM and Shepard finish talking instead of fighting.

 

I don't mind if the main character loses a fight here and there as long as its nothing like the Thessia mission

[Lucca_de_Neon]

Me too... except that I might feel challenged to take down the seemingly impossible odds anyway. And should that succeed but get ignored by the game, I'd be cheesed off again. It's very hard to get right.

 

I recall this mission in the original StarCraft campaign where Sarah Kerrigan gets overwhelmed by the zerg at the end. After my first go, I promptly restarted the mission and built a gigantic fleet of battlecruisers that nuked every hive in sight and then hovered over the center of the map, waiting for the swarm to come running. As expected, the zerg got completely obliterated... but the story proceeded as before, of course. I wasn't amused. (I kept building the cruiser fleet on later replays anyway, because I could.)

I have no experience as a developer but there must be a way of making it happen. Spamming enemies one after the other is not cool but maybe is the only way...i refuse to believe it but maybe..

[Chardonney]

Thessia didn't make Kai Leng feel like a threat, more like a rubber roach that somehow no amount of beatdown could kill.

 

That's absolutely hilarious and yes, so true.

 

But yeah, Thessia was a joke on a grand scale. Just so, so bad.

[Larry-3]

So the PC should be able to succeed at everything he tries?

Well... hmm...

[Eleonora]

Everyone hates that. However, Bio did the same thing in KotOR with the first Malak fight, but got away with it then. I don't know why one worked but the other didn't.

 

Hm. In Kotor's case, the game makes it seem like the player is the one who's lucky to get away from Malak instead of the other way around. Also, the game's big plot twist was the main focus of that whole scene and the fact the Malak got away felt more like an afterthought to me. That's what made me tolerate that scene, at least.