198 réponses à ce sujet

[Fullmetall21]

I don't remember that particular piece of Banter (probably because it was so insignificant it is not something worth remembering) and have no idea what it is supposed to infer but is there seriously no other way that information could be conveyed and is that particular piece of banter that vital to the experience? Could it not be conveyed through codex entries, audio logs, an advisor over headset or by any other means other than a tag along in your party? Also did you really need that piece of banter to complete the game, what did Tali commenting of the spikes called Dragon's Teeth really add that no other piece of Banter from any other character in the game could have?

 

 

 

Is there no room for growth and change? Should Mass Effect just become an annual series like Call of Duty or Madden and just release the same game every year with a few slight tweeks? I am not saying Bioware should just copy other games either but that does not mean there are not things that they could learn from them, game design does not happen in a vacuum and it is always good to have a look at what other games do well and learn from them while incorporating your own improvements.

 

Everything we do is built on the shoulders of giants and without the lessons learnt from games in the past we would not have the games we have today, incorporate the lessons learnt from your predecessors while adding your own improvements and unique touches.

 

I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong that would be stupid, you asked me to give you an example of unique banter that only happens when you are out on the field with your squad and I did. Party banter might be "insignificant" as you say it, but the examples you gave me about banter were not only insignificant but also irrelevant. The bachelor's party on illium? some refund guy on citadel? Completely irrelevant to the plot whatsoever. Also as I understand it you consider Mass Effect 2 to be the best of the trilogy, but guess what Mass Effect 2 is all about the companions.

 

I would also appreciate is you stopped twisting my words. I never said I want Bioware to take a page from anyone and I never said that they should release games every year. The current model they use is great and that is my opinion, which to be honest, you asked for. Finally don't you think that it's weird that most of the other companies decide to move to companion model but you out of nowhere want Bioware to move to a solo model?

Modifié par Fullmetall21, 15 janvier 2016 - 01:16 .

[sjsharp2011]

I actually wouldn't mind if Bioware made games so that it is insurmountably difficult to complete without companions. That would tell the story of Bioware making really good AI for companions, or at least being able to control each party member to a very detailed level. While I'm at it I wouldn't mind an option to make companions either controlled mostly by AI as one option or full control as another, and a third that gives a bit of both.

To an extent you can in DA though as on occasions when I've had trouble I've switched control from my quizzie or from my warden to the mage in my group and controlled the situation through them . F|or example I was doing the Hunger pangs mission yesterday where you have to chase the rams down for their meat and I was having trouble getting close to them without them running off so just switched control to Solas and just froze them like I normally do when I'm  playing a mage. I agree that sometimes the companion AI could be better for example Solas could have done that for me instead of having me seize control of him  and do it. Generally though I don't have too many problems with the AI as it mostly does what I need it to do when I need it.

[Fade9wayz]

Mhe, I just ignore them and leave them be. They survive, good, they die, well, there's my solo mission. It was especially easy to ignore them in ME3. Of the three games, it was the easiest to 'solo', especially as a vanguard.

[UniformGreyColor]

To an extent you can in DA though as on occasions when I've had trouble I've switched control from my quizzie or from my warden to the mage in my group and controlled the situation through them . F|or example I was doing the Hunger pangs mission yesterday where you have to chase the rams down for their meat and I was having trouble getting close to them without them running off so just switched control to Solas and just froze them like I normally do when I'm  playing a mage. I agree that sometimes the companion AI could be better for example Solas could have done that for me instead of having me seize control of him  and do it. Generally though I don't have too many problems with the AI as it mostly does what I need it to do when I need it.

 

Yes I get that, but for practicality sake, it would be nice to have an easy on/off/partial switch for AI that I could change at any time. I think the AI isn't bad in DA:I, but it could def be improved. This might sound nitpicky a bit but say I am using tactical camera. When I assign my commands and I don't want them to do a particular action on a particular enemy I can't just let the game play. Things like companion X use Y ability on enemy z and then  attack my target (in other words a string of actions) needs to be controlled by me. If the AI was programmed to always make the most optimal play, that would be one thing (and almost impossible to be done well so the player can predict what is going to happen unless ofc there was an indicator for what the progression of actions would be for a character), but then having the control to NOT attack or use a specific ability on a specific enemy has never really been an option for DA. I guess I wouldn't mind an AND, OR, NOT system happen with the AI where those dichotomies are clearly laid out. I did feel I really liked the use of tactics in DA:O, but I think they did make a step toward progress with DA:I. Some kind of hybrid between the tactics system in DA:O and the AI tactics in DA:I would be a nice touch.

 

TL;DR: I would like to have a list of actions performed by a character from the AI and then be able to change one or all of those actions. Something like a system similar to Divinity Original Sin would be nice with the ability to tell the characters what not to do and still have the option to play in real time.

[Silvery]

I would be open to a few more solo parts of the game but not a whole game like that. For me the companions are a big part of what makes a Bioware game a Bioware game and this includes spending your time traveling with them in the open world. 

[Queen Skadi]

I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong that would be stupid, you asked me to give you an example of unique banter that only happens when you are out on the field with your squad and I did.

 

And now I am asking what exactly that particular piece of banter actually added to the game and if there are no other ways that such vital information could be conveyed? Of course there are plenty of examples of banter that only happens in the field in Bioware games but that is because the conversations are only triggered out in the field, that does not mean that there are not other ways the information could be presented or other opportunities for the conversation to happen when the companions are not in your party.

 

 

I would also appreciate is you stopped twisting my words. I never said I want Bioware to take a page from anyone and I never said that they should release games every year. The current model they use is great and that is my opinion, which to be honest, you asked for. Finally don't you think that it's weird that most of the other companies decide to move to companion model but you out of nowhere want Bioware to move to a solo model?

 

What other companies? Bethesda? Bethesda has always had companions in a sense, characters that you could enlist to follow you around and carry your gear since Morrowind, that said the characters were always more of a hindrance without being much help or adding anything to the game which is why most people play the Elder Scrolls games solo, the only thing that has changed in Fallout 4 is they have become invulnerable and have a little more effort put into their writing.

[Fullmetall21]

And now I am asking what exactly that particular piece of banter actually added to the game and if there are no other ways that such vital information could be conveyed? Of course there are plenty of examples of banter that only happens in the field in Bioware games but that is because the conversations are only triggered out in the field, that does not mean that there are not other ways the information could be presented or other opportunities for the conversation to happen when the companions are not in your party.

 

 

 

What other companies? Bethesda? Bethesda has always had companions in a sense, characters that you could enlist to follow you around and carry your gear since Morrowind, that said the characters were always more of a hindrance without being much help or adding anything to the game which is why most people play the Elder Scrolls games solo, the only thing that has changed in Fallout 4 is they have become invulnerable and have a little more effort put into their writing.

 

It adds flavor. It adds something, other games don't have, a signature if you will. There are no such thing as vital information on party banter but just how many games have you seen that do that? having companions around telling jokes and making cool references. Let me tell you, I have seen NONE. That's all for Mass Effect however, in Dragon Age banter you actually get character development, and you can even get your companions to have a relationship with each other. But now you will say "sure, but that could have happened while they are not in your group". Yeah, hello out of nowhere I decided to date that guy, good for me yeah? Party banter is so useless right? better drop it for "vertical object scaling" that noone actually likes (as proved by the shards in Inquisition).

 

As for companies moving to companion model, it is my understanding that Halo is adding companions, MGS Phantom Pain added a companion as well. I honestly have no clue what Bethesda does since I always disliked their games. I could be wrong, in which case I trust you will correct me. But it is obvious we will never agree so I will just drop it. 

[KaiserShep]

It adds flavor. It adds something, other games don't have, a signature if you will. There are no such thing as vital information on party banter but just how many games have you seen that do that? having companions around telling jokes and making cool references. Let me tell you, I have seen NONE. That's all for Mass Effect however, in Dragon Age banter you actually get character development, and you can even get your companions to have a relationship with each other. But now you will say "sure, but that could have happened while they are not in your group". Yeah, hello out of nowhere I decided to date that guy, good for me yeah? Party banter is so useless right? better drop it for "vertical object scaling" that noone actually likes (as proved by the shards in Inquisition).

 

As for companies moving to companion model, it is my understanding that Halo is adding companions, MGS Phantom Pain added a companion as well. I honestly have no clue what Bethesda does since I always disliked their games. I could be wrong, in which case I trust you will correct me. But it is obvious we will never agree so I will just drop it. 

 

I love having companions in the game. Having them chatter and express their opinions and make jokes and make fun of or berate each other is fun. Having the protagonist have company on their journey, to me, is immensely more satisfying. If BioWare were to get rid of such a thing for their games, they'd lose a huge chunk of what makes them special. 

[mickey111]

One of the things that made Basldurs Gate great is that the majority of experience points earned were divided equally among active group members. This meant that one character going alone would have almost as much experience points as a full group of 6 and individually be much stronger than any single one of them. This was a good design choice because it added incentive to replay the game, once with a full group, and a second time all alone to see just how much potential any given build could have without anyone else holding them back. I want more RPGs to be like that, but apart from BG and certain games with it's same engine I can think of divinity: original sin as the only other example.

[Ahglock]

I love having companions in the game. Having them chatter and express their opinions and make jokes and make fun of or berate each other is fun. Having the protagonist have company on their journey, to me, is immensely more satisfying. If BioWare were to get rid of such a thing for their games, they'd lose a huge chunk of what makes them special.

And how would it be different outside the combat gameplay if they did that over comms. If your companions were technical advisors you recruited, who stayed on ship and watched your progress through your armors system. And commented, advised, argued and bantered just like they would if there. Do you need the physical reminder of seeing the companion for it to work?

To me that's pure value add. I get the banter in the field and I can get a more robust game play when they no longer have to worry about the AI companions

[Fullmetall21]

And how would it be different outside the combat gameplay if they did that over comms. If your companions were technical advisors you recruited, who stayed on ship and watched your progress through your armors system. And commented, advised, argued and bantered just like they would if there. Do you need the physical reminder of seeing the companion for it to work?

To me that's pure value add. I get the banter in the field and I can get a more robust game play when they no longer have to worry about the AI companions

 

It would be different because then they can't comment on physical objects you see on the mission, or even if they did it would break the immersion. That might not mean much to you but I like to role play in an RPG game, as such immersion is a vital component to me. Think of it this way, you don't really care about companions being present and/or party banter, me on the other hand I don't care about gameplay. I'll never convince you that companions are important and you will never convince me that they are not. We can argue all we like but in the end it all comes down to personal preference, some people prefer solo gameplay others do not. Trying to convince me or anyone else that the game would be better off as solo is the same thing as trying to convince someone that blondes are prettier than brunettes. 

 

Don't take me wrong, I'm not saying that combat and gameplay should be left alone or discarded all together (which is what you guys are asking for in regards of the companions) I'm saying that it should never be a priority in a story driven RPG game. Focus on the gameplay to much and who's to say that Mass Effect won't be the next Destiny? Again don't take me wrong, you might enjoy Destiny for all I know, in which case good for you but for me if they decide to remove companions I honestly don't think I'm going to buy the game regardless of how good the gameplay might be.

[Ahglock]

So your super hi tech armor from hundreds of years in the future can't stream video? They could comment on everything you see and maybe more as they might be tasked with watching sensor feeds a single human brain can't keep up with and make qualitative judgements a VI can't. It would be immersion breaking if they couldn't see what you see IMO.

[themikefest]

I love having companions in the game. Having them chatter and express their opinions and make jokes and make fun of or berate each other is fun. Having the protagonist have company on their journey, to me, is immensely more satisfying. If BioWare were to get rid of such a thing for their games, they'd lose a huge chunk of what makes them special. 

Having a squadmate also means they have each others back and not just hearing them talk.

[Fullmetall21]

So your super hi tech armor from hundreds of years in the future can't stream video? They could comment on everything you see and maybe more as they might be tasked with watching sensor feeds a single human brain can't keep up with and make qualitative judgements a VI can't. It would be immersion breaking if they couldn't see what you see IMO.

 

You could make arguments about the multiple ways it can be done, you could even say information could be read solely on the codex but that simply doesn't work for me. I enjoy having companions physically there with me, so they can also be part of the cinematics while on the field, like the ending of the suicide mission when one of your teammates is falling off the platform and stuff like that, or the ending of the London mission in ME3. Arguably the whole scene would be way less emotional if that conversation was over the comms. That works for me and honestly if you value gameplay so highly maybe Bioware games are just not for you. 

[Hammerstorm]

And how would it be different outside the combat gameplay if they did that over comms. If your companions were technical advisors you recruited, who stayed on ship and watched your progress through your armors system. And commented, advised, argued and bantered just like they would if there. Do you need the physical reminder of seeing the companion for it to work?

To me that's pure value add. I get the banter in the field and I can get a more robust game play when they no longer have to worry about the AI companions

 

Why would they have random talk (banters) on a comm? a comm is most for information and to make sure that they receive that information the comm should be to a minimum so when somebody is talking on the comm it vital informations and not "hey, look at that funny looking stone, it looks like a horse".

[KaiserShep]

And how would it be different outside the combat gameplay if they did that over comms. If your companions were technical advisors you recruited, who stayed on ship and watched your progress through your armors system. And commented, advised, argued and bantered just like they would if there. Do you need the physical reminder of seeing the companion for it to work?

To me that's pure value add. I get the banter in the field and I can get a more robust game play when they no longer have to worry about the AI companions

 

But we're not talking about strictly combat gameplay. The missions will be part of the story and have cut scenes, in which case the companions the protagonist takes will also add to that by actually being there and allowing you to actually see their expressions. I don't want the entire thing to be nothing but gorram disembodied voices. That might work on occasion, but it'll be a cold day in hell before I trade followers for nothing but crappy comm chatter. I don't need the physical reminder of seeing the companion; I simply prefer it a great deal more over the alternative. I prefer to see characters react to the moment, which is not something you can really do when it's just a voice over a radio (like who cares about lady screaming "SNAKE!"). Having companions along for the ride also allows for opportunities for them to participate beyond simply speaking, like choosing to have companion X defend a position or a companion deciding to take one for the team so the rest could get away. 

 

But then, getting more robust combat gameplay is not my concern. I'd much rather have more character content than combat. 

[SlottsMachine]

You don't need dedicated followers to have banter though. 

 

 

TW3 did a pretty good job and they didn't come close to the amount of time and resources that BioWare typically puts into it. BioWare creating a solo experience doesn't mean they have to move away from writing characters.  It just means they would have more freedom gameplay wise and also when you think about it more freedom narratively. I mean it kinda limits what you can do when every enemy you create has to be butchered wholesale to fit the needs of gameplay.  

[Fullmetall21]

You don't need dedicated followers to have banter though. 

 

 

TW3 did a pretty good job and they didn't come close to the amount of time and resources that BioWare typically puts into it. BioWare creating a solo experience doesn't mean they have to move away from writing characters.  It just means they would have more freedom gameplay wise and also when you think about it more freedom narratively. I mean it kinda limits what you can do when every enemy you create has to be butchered wholesale to fit the needs of gameplay.  

 

As I said, TW3 and CDPR have little to do with Mass Effect and Bioware. DAI was only compared with TW3 because it was the closest thing to it so it can be compared with something (because apparently people really love comparisons), still it has little in common with TW3 other than both of them sharing some core RPG mechanics. The same goes for every Bioware game when compared with any CDPR game, I have no doubt that CDPR made the Witcher series a great franchise but in the end of the day, the game was developed by a completely different company with a completely different style and the series itself has remained relatively intact in terms of it's style and tone. In the matters of banter, DAI alone has recorded 5.5 hours of party banter and even though I'm not certain to what the exact number is for the Witcher, I'm pretty sure it is nowhere near these levels. 

 

Party based gameplay has been Bioware's style since forever, from the original Baldur's Gate to Dragon Age Inquisition. Suggesting to remove it is kinda of the same thing as suggesting to remove the dodge mechanic from the Witcher (I say that because I lack perspective to what Witcher fans think is really important to the series). The gameplay would improve if such resources were dedicated to actually improve it, but it would no longer be a Bioware game, not without the signature feature that all Bioware games share. At that point, Bioware might as well sell the Mass Effect franchise to an other company so they can make a solo game in the Mass Effect world, because that is what you people are suggesting here. A solo game in Mass Effect is simply no longer Mass Effect. The benefits of better gameplay are nothing compared to the series losing it's identity.  

[sjsharp2011]

Yes I get that, but for practicality sake, it would be nice to have an easy on/off/partial switch for AI that I could change at any time. I think the AI isn't bad in DA:I, but it could def be improved. This might sound nitpicky a bit but say I am using tactical camera. When I assign my commands and I don't want them to do a particular action on a particular enemy I can't just let the game play. Things like companion X use Y ability on enemy z and then  attack my target (in other words a string of actions) needs to be controlled by me. If the AI was programmed to always make the most optimal play, that would be one thing (and almost impossible to be done well so the player can predict what is going to happen unless ofc there was an indicator for what the progression of actions would be for a character), but then having the control to NOT attack or use a specific ability on a specific enemy has never really been an option for DA. I guess I wouldn't mind an AND, OR, NOT system happen with the AI where those dichotomies are clearly laid out. I did feel I really liked the use of tactics in DA:O, but I think they did make a step toward progress with DA:I. Some kind of hybrid between the tactics system in DA:O and the AI tactics in DA:I would be a nice touch.

 

TL;DR: I would like to have a list of actions performed by a character from the AI and then be able to change one or all of those actions. Something like a system similar to Divinity Original Sin would be nice with the ability to tell the characters what not to do and still have the option to play in real time.

Yeah but these things always can be improved the point Iwas trying to make is the fact that the options are there for those that want them. There's always going to be room for improvemenrt but that's always what we can hope for as games get bigger and better. I think the fact though that Bioware have dolne a pretty good job with the tech at their disposal is a step in the right directoin. As for ordering companions to not use certain abilties you can I believe switch the abilities to disabled I believe in the tactics screen. I think they will eventually get there though.

[SlottsMachine]

Oh, so we are not allowed to use examples of things eh?

 

 

DAI alone has recorded 5.5 hours of party banter and even though I'm not certain to what the exact number is for the Witcher, I'm pretty sure it is nowhere near these levels. 

 

 

Thanks. That was exactly my point. 

[Killroy]

BioWare creating a solo experience doesn't mean they have to move away from writing characters.  It just means they would have more freedom gameplay wise and also when you think about it more freedom narratively. I mean it kinda limits what you can do when every enemy you create has to be butchered wholesale to fit the needs of gameplay.

...you're just writing gibberish. How does removing companions give more gameplay or narrative freedom? How does removing companions change how enemies are killed? What are you talking about?

[Fullmetall21]

Oh, so we are not allowed to use examples of things eh?

 

 

 

Thanks. That was exactly my point. 

 

You misunderstand, examples are good when you comparing similar things, comparing DAI with TW3 is like comparing apples with oranges. Both are fruits but are fundamentally different, that being said ME has even less in common with TW3 than DAI, granted we are talking about ME Andromeda since it appears Bioware decided to take the Inquisition route here in terms of the main character's background and development (from what we can tell this early).  By definition, Gerald is meant to be solo because that's how the Witchers work in the universe, which is the fundamental difference I'm talking about. With that being said, bringing up the Wticher in a topic about whether or not should ME move to a solo gameplay model is wrong because of how the lore and the universe of each series work.

 

Also I missed your point, it is common knowledge that Bioware is very good at character writing but I still fail to understand how a transition to a solo game would theoretically improve that. 

Modifié par Fullmetall21, 16 janvier 2016 - 08:30 .

[Hiemoth]

And how would it be different outside the combat gameplay if they did that over comms. If your companions were technical advisors you recruited, who stayed on ship and watched your progress through your armors system. And commented, advised, argued and bantered just like they would if there. Do you need the physical reminder of seeing the companion for it to work?

To me that's pure value add. I get the banter in the field and I can get a more robust game play when they no longer have to worry about the AI companions

 

You don't need dedicated followers to have banter though. 

 

 

TW3 did a pretty good job and they didn't come close to the amount of time and resources that BioWare typically puts into it. BioWare creating a solo experience doesn't mean they have to move away from writing characters.  It just means they would have more freedom gameplay wise and also when you think about it more freedom narratively. I mean it kinda limits what you can do when every enemy you create has to be butchered wholesale to fit the needs of gameplay.  

 

I see this concept of gameplay freedom thrown arond like a buzzword and I still don't quite understand what it means. What is this mythical gameplay mechanic that would be gotten by removing the companions, as they already have to implement a NPC AI in the game to begin with. You know, the antagonists shooting at the player. Gears of War have NPC companions, yet I don't think there's ever discussion how removing them would allow somehow magically the game to do more.

 

The only example of what could be done that I can come up with is stealth and if that is the argument, I think it is very misguided. The reason for the lack of stealth in ME games in not because of companions, but because implementing a stealth mechanic requires massive changes from level and encounter design and requires the whole gameplay to be drastically altered.

[Fullmetall21]

Apparently there were some suggestion on zero gravity environment combat (how would that even work?) and vertical object scaling. The latter is already being addressed in Andromeda though with the addition of jet packs, a change that by the way, did not require the removal of AI companions.

[HSomCokeSniper]

I'm open to the idea but it's not really Bioware's thing.

That said, I slightly prefer going solo.