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[Gervaise]

I've been looking at the different reaction to necromancy from Cole and Solas over on You Tube and it is striking how different their reaction is when talking to the Inquisitor.   Cole seems totally honest and tells it how it is, destroying the potential of a wisp to be something more.   Solas seems far more pragmatic and diplomatic, so is he hiding his true feelings about it?     He says there is nothing wrong with it provided you aren't harming intelligent spirits, which would imply he doesn't think Wisps have intelligence.   However, in Asunder Rhys calls a wisp out of the Fade to assist him, communicates with it and receives a response that would suggest a degree of intelligence, just not very sophisticated, like a small child.   This would tie in with Cole suggesting that by breaking apart the wisp in necromancy you are preventing it from growing into a mature spirit that has greater complexity.   So is Solas being insincere when he seems to raise no objection to the Inquisitor's use of necromancy or does the spirit have to have a certain level of intelligence before he thinks it qualifies as a "person"?   

 

Then again, according to Flemeth, Mythal survived her death as a wisp and had enough of her identity retained to communicate and merge with Flemeth, so are there different categories of wisp?

[Xilizhra]

I think necromancers use sub-wisps, actually. Necromancy basically entails the spirit equivalent of abortions, put crudely.

[Gervaise]

Early or late term?    

[Catilina]

Solas do not like necromancy.

[Xilizhra]

Early or late term?    

Pretty sure early.

[Incantrix]

I think for a mage like Solas who was around when magic was a way of life, all forms of magic are fine. He is even okay with blood magic.

[myahele]

I always thought Neverran Necromancy uses spirits differently from Tevinter (Dorian) school. It seems as if it's a mutual relationship between spirit and necromancer: The spirit is able to briefly "enjoy" the real world while helping out the necromancer.

 

Dorian pretty much pulls spirits forcefully. Cole even makes the distinction between Inquisitor necromancy vs Dorian.

[nightscrawl]

I always thought Neverran Necromancy uses spirits differently from Tevinter (Dorian) school. It seems as if it's a mutual relationship between spirit and necromancer: The spirit is able to briefly "enjoy" the real world while helping out the necromancer.

 

Dorian pretty much pulls spirits forcefully. Cole even makes the distinction between Inquisitor necromancy vs Dorian.

 

Well no, Cole only wishes you to be nicer about it, the Inquisitor can still do whatever according to their RP. This is one disconnect between game aspects and story aspects that I dislike. Dorian and the Inquisitor have access to the same skills in Necromancy and there is no difference in play style between the two. But then you have these lines from Cole that suggest there should, but it's not reflected in the actual game other than by how you respond to Cole in that conversation.

 

And as I've said several times on these forums, it is a great shame we can't talk to Dorian about it (or any follower who has the actual spec.) Although I suppose there would be issue with Cassandra's spec since she isn't actually a templar, which is a separate game issue entirely. Although I must say I'm fond of Iron Bull's conversation regarding Champion spec, as it allows for some nice RP.

[nightscrawl]

He says there is nothing wrong with it provided you aren't harming intelligent spirits, which would imply he doesn't think Wisps have intelligence.   However, in Asunder Rhys calls a wisp out of the Fade to assist him, communicates with it and receives a response that would suggest a degree of intelligence, just not very sophisticated, like a small child.   This would tie in with Cole suggesting that by breaking apart the wisp in necromancy you are preventing it from growing into a mature spirit that has greater complexity.   So is Solas being insincere when he seems to raise no objection to the Inquisitor's use of necromancy or does the spirit have to have a certain level of intelligence before he thinks it qualifies as a "person"?

I think it's the difference in how one values potential versus a current state of being. Anything else I can think of to add to the topic seems like it would lead down an unfortunate path, already raised by both Xilizhra and yourself, which is not a place this thread needs to go.

 

I really don't "get" Solas in general though. Is he just being fake the entire time? Like when he approves of my helping certain people? Does he really think it's OK to want to destroy everything as long as he feels bad about it?

[vertigomez]

I really don't "get" Solas in general though. Is he just being fake the entire time? Like when he approves of my helping certain people? Does he really think it's OK to want to destroy everything as long as he feels bad about it?

Putting this behind a spoiler tag because it might be upsetting,

Spoiler

It's a bit like euthanizing your dog. It has to be done because the illness or injury they're facing is so much worse... but you can hold them and scratch their ears and let them feel happy in those last few moments. That's how Solas is looking at the entire world. In his mind, it HAS to be done, but he wants to get it over with as quickly as possible and not have people suffer needlessly.

[Gervaise]

Vertigomez: I think you are probably right about the way he views it.    The thing is, it would have been helpful if he could have answered the question "Why does this world have to die?" rather than being evasive and saying that he doesn't want to give you too much information.   I mean either he wants you to try and stop him or he doesn't but to say, if you opt for the "prove you wrong" response, that he treasures the chance to be proved wrong but not give you the information to do it, is just irritating. 

 

As for everything else he says, knowing what his plans are now, and were before we met him, makes me doubt anything he said to me or anyone else.    I mean how can you say "I believe in the inherent right of all free willed people to exist", when you were planning to contradict that belief and still intend to do so?     Except of course Solas equivocates constantly, so what he is thinking is probably that when everyone dies they will become a basic spirit (wisp) and therefore they will still exist and have the potential to become a person (by his definition) again.   With Solas nothing he says really means what the listener thinks it means; to know what he really means you'd have to be able to see inside Solas' head.

[In Exile]

Putting this behind a spoiler tag because it might be upsetting,

Spoiler

It's a bit like euthanizing your dog. It has to be done because the illness or injury they're facing is so much worse... but you can hold them and scratch their ears and let them feel happy in those last few moments. That's how Solas is looking at the entire world. In his mind, it HAS to be done, but he wants to get it over with as quickly as possible and not have people suffer needlessly.

 

I don't think that analogy works, because it doesn't capture his guilt. 

 

Spoiler

Solas cannot recover from the guilt of what he did to the elves, and how he fundamentally changed them. He wanted to overthrow the Evanuris, but not rip away everything that he thinks defines the elves - their magic, their connection to the Fade, their immortality (well, agelessness). He cannot live with the guilt of what he did - particularly because he sees the world he created as worse. Not just because of what happened to the elves, but because of what he did to the spirits and the Fade itself. 

 

He comes to realize that people are more "people" than he gave them credit for in modern Thedas, but that doesn't address his guilt. He has this conversation with Varric in the banter that really captures his inability to let go. Same with Cole

.

[Lady Artifice]

I don't think Bioware has handled the details of how most specializations work very well.

[vertigomez]

Vertigomez: I think you are probably right about the way he views it. The thing is, it would have been helpful if he could have answered the question "Why does this world have to die?" rather than being evasive and saying that he doesn't want to give you too much information. I mean either he wants you to try and stop him or he doesn't but to say, if you opt for the "prove you wrong" response, that he treasures the chance to be proved wrong but not give you the information to do it, is just irritating.

That's Solas for you, LOL. He plays his cards close to his chest but the man is so prideful that he just can't help monologuing justifying himself.

He doesn't want to give you the information you need to stop him, because he doesn't want to be stopped. He wants to be proven wrong, but since he doesn't feel this is possible (because he's always right?), he knows you'll just try to stop him.

He knows your conclusions will be Wrong so he doesn't want you to ruin his plans with your bumbling morality, but he would like you to be Right so he won't have to go through with it. But you'll never be Right, so back to plan A!

As for everything else he says, knowing what his plans are now, and were before we met him, makes me doubt anything he said to me or anyone else. I mean how can you say "I believe in the inherent right of all free willed people to exist", when you were planning to contradict that belief and still intend to do so? Except of course Solas equivocates constantly, so what he is thinking is probably that when everyone dies they will become a basic spirit (wisp) and therefore they will still exist and have the potential to become a person (by his definition) again. With Solas nothing he says really means what the listener thinks it means; to know what he really means you'd have to be able to see inside Solas' head.

I guess it all depends on one's definition of "free-willed" and "people". In his mind, the people of today are lacking fundamental parts of themselves ("the dwarves are the severed arm of a once-mighty hero..." and all that). Maybe he thinks starting anew is better than being blind, deaf, and Tranquil?

I don't think that analogy works, because it doesn't capture his guilt.

Spoiler

Solas cannot recover from the guilt of what he did to the elves, and how he fundamentally changed them. He wanted to overthrow the Evanuris, but not rip away everything that he thinks defines the elves - their magic, their connection to the Fade, their immortality (well, agelessness). He cannot live with the guilt of what he did - particularly because he sees the world he created as worse. Not just because of what happened to the elves, but because of what he did to the spirits and the Fade itself.

He comes to realize that people are more "people" than he gave them credit for in modern Thedas, but that doesn't address his guilt. He has this conversation with Varric in the banter that really captures his inability to let go. Same with Cole

.

His motivation is guilt, it's why he "has" to do this, but his methods are - I think - in line with what I said. He tells the Inquisitor to run off and be happy while they can. Right now the guilt he feels for what he did to the ancient elves is outweighing any sentimentality he has towards people today.

Silly Pride Solas, thinking he (and only he) knows what's best for everyone and screwing up the world again... and again...

[Mistic]

Dorian pretty much pulls spirits forcefully. Cole even makes the distinction between Inquisitor necromancy vs Dorian.

 

Does he? Cole's words about the Necromancer Inquisitor and Dorian are practically much the same:

 

About the Inquisitor: "You pull at pieces. They push into place, demons but different but wrong".

 

About Dorian: "Dorian pulls at pieces, pushing them to bodies. I like him more when it's just fire".

 

In both cases, the word Cole uses is "pieces" (unless I missed something).

[myahele]

I guess I was wrong. Despite Nevarrans being more respectful, necromancy still pulls at pieces (wisps) 

[nightscrawl]

While I intellectually understand the posted responses, I still have somewhat of a disconnect. It just seems to me that "two wrongs don't make a right." He feels guilty over what he did because he feels that the result is terrible, and is going to try to "fix" it by doing another terrible thing. But I suppose his inability to just live with his original guilt is the crux of the matter, and as long as that outweighs everything else, he will move forward with his plans.

[In Exile]

While I intellectually understand the posted responses, I still have somewhat of a disconnect. It just seems to me that "two wrongs don't make a right." He feels guilty over what he did because he feels that the result is terrible, and is going to try to "fix" it by doing another terrible thing. But I suppose his inability to just live with his original guilt is the crux of the matter, and as long as that outweighs everything else, he will move forward with his plans.

 

To Solas, it's that one wrong will fix an ever greater one, and, in any event, the present world is an illusion. This is why Cole using the language of "real" matters. Just like how we - the audience - don't really quite see the bad future in In Hushed Whispers as "real", Solas doesn't see the current world in Thedas as real. At first. Over time, he appreciates that the world he created by accident has "sort of people" in it, but to him it's a transient phase, a gloss on the world. It'll be awful to remove it, lots of suffering will be caused, but ultimately, it's not real. The real world was the one he messed up by creating the Veil. 

[Mistic]

To Solas, it's that one wrong will fix an ever greater one, and, in any event, the present world is an illusion. This is why Cole using the language of "real" matters. Just like how we - the audience - don't really quite see the bad future in In Hushed Whispers as "real", Solas doesn't see the current world in Thedas as real. At first. Over time, he appreciates that the world he created by accident has "sort of people" in it, but to him it's a transient phase, a gloss on the world. It'll be awful to remove it, lots of suffering will be caused, but ultimately, it's not real. The real world was the one he messed up by creating the Veil. 

 

I think that's the best comparison there is. Future!Leliana points out in that quest that their suffering was real. But Dorian and the PC seem content to treat it as a mistake that can and will be corrected with more time travel.

 

Of course, if Dragon Age follows the rule of paralel universes (which would make sense, with so many player world states and that wink in DA:O about the other origins existing regardless what you chose for your Warden), that future timeline and their characters still exist somewhere. But if not? The Inquisitor and Dorian were willing to erase countless of lives for the greater good. Since Solas sees the current DA world as a horrible dystopia, the situation is not very different.

[Gervaise]

To be fair to Dorian and the Inquisitor it is made quite clear in Hushed Whispers that there is not a lot left in the way of normal people outside of Redcliffe Castle, and the world is fast going to hell with demons running all over the place.   I think if you had said to Leliana and company, we can't go back in time and change this because of the people we are going to kill here, they would think you insane.

 

Now when Solas first woke up you could give him the excuse that he didn't see any of it as real but not any more.   As bad as some parts of Thedas can be viewed, there is no way anywhere is as bad as in Hushed Whispers.   Solas has interacted with individuals in this world, has claimed to respect them, even love them (if you do the Solas romance), he says they deserved better and yet he still plans to go ahead. Plus he is not going back in time, to stop himself from doing it in the first place; he is going to tear down the Veil in the present with all the suffering that will entail.   All because he wants to put things back to the way they were before because he thinks that will be better.  

 

Actually his comments about necromancy and spirits are relevant to his plans, because effectively the basic wisps that he doesn't see as intelligent enough to matter if you tear them apart, are the equivalent of the modern races, whilst the spirits that he considers to be real people and thus he is concerned about, equate to the ancient elves.

[nightscrawl]

I think that's the best comparison there is. Future!Leliana points out in that quest that their suffering was real. But Dorian and the PC seem content to treat it as a mistake that can and will be corrected with more time travel.

This is rather a weird digression into IHW... At any rate, I don't think that's really the case as you phrase it. You make it seem like the suffering of the people right in front of them is completely disregarded by those two people. I know that's not the case for Dorian as he is a compassionate man, and is certainly not the case for my Inquisitor. BUT they do understand that they can "fix" it if they make it so the events never happened in the first place.
 
In talking to Leliana, Dorian says, "Alexius sent us into the future. This, his victory, his Elder One -- it was never meant to be."
 
It's rather odd that one of the paraphrases for the Inquisitor is "This isn't real," because that's not what is reflected in the actual words.
[1. I’m sorry for what happened.] I’m sorry for everything you suffered.
[2. This isn’t real.] If we get back to the present and stop Alexius, then you’ll never have to go through this.
[3. I have to get back.] I need to find Alexius and reverse the spell.
 
Nothing in any of those lines indicates that they don't care, or think that none of this was real. In fact, if you ask Dorian at the start, "And what happens if we can’t get back?" his response is, "Then we get comfortable in our new present."
 
When Leliana lashes out at Dorian -- "This is all pretend to you, some future you hope will never exist," -- she is wrong. Her reaction is understandable in the circumstance, but it is not a fair one.

 

To be fair to Dorian and the Inquisitor it is made quite clear in Hushed Whispers that there is not a lot left in the way of normal people outside of Redcliffe Castle, and the world is fast going to hell with demons running all over the place.   I think if you had said to Leliana and company, we can't go back in time and change this because of the people we are going to kill here, they would think you insane.

This is actually reflected in the post-Alexius fight options if you pick:
[1. Isn’t there another way?] I can’t let you kill yourself for me. There must be another way…
[4. I won’t let you die.] No! I won’t let you commit suicide.

 

The Inquisitor and Dorian were willing to erase countless of lives for the greater good. Since Solas sees the current DA world as a horrible dystopia, the situation is not very different.

I suppose this is just you and I looking at it differently.

To me, all of those people are still alive in the Inquisitor/Dorian "present" timeline, so the lives are not being "erased." And in fact all those that were were killed since then will be restored. If you look at the timeline from the perspective of Inquisitor/Dorian, hundreds of thousands (or more?) people died in the space of a few seconds (or however long your loading screen is), and they are actually bringing people back to life (again, from their own perspective).

 

True, there is not a guarantee that it will work, so I suppose there is something to be said for that. But in that case, I'm not sure that there would be a consequence for anyone but the Inquisitor/Dorian, since they might die in the attempt, explode into atoms, or the spell simply may not work at all and they are stuck there and are killed by those Venatori forces that break into the hall.

[In Exile]

To be fair to Dorian and the Inquisitor it is made quite clear in Hushed Whispers that there is not a lot left in the way of normal people outside of Redcliffe Castle, and the world is fast going to hell with demons running all over the place.   I think if you had said to Leliana and company, we can't go back in time and change this because of the people we are going to kill here, they would think you insane.

 

Solas does you one better: there are no "People" left at all in the world he created. The world is going to hell, with everything so viciously separated from the Fade that the beings left are barely recognizable as alive, a weird mimicry of life that leaves out its most important parts. If you told Abelas you wouldn't fix this abomination of a world because you'd wipe out a sad mimicry of life, he'd think you insane.

 

Now when Solas first woke up you could give him the excuse that he didn't see any of it as real but not any more.   As bad as some parts of Thedas can be viewed, there is no way anywhere is as bad as in Hushed Whispers.   Solas has interacted with individuals in this world, has claimed to respect them, even love them (if you do the Solas romance), he says they deserved better and yet he still plans to go ahead. Plus he is not going back in time, to stop himself from doing it in the first place; he is going to tear down the Veil in the present with all the suffering that will entail.   All because he wants to put things back to the way they were before because he thinks that will be better. 

 

You're not looking at it from his perspective. The world he sees - which looks like our own IRL world - isn't what the world is supposed to be like. It is a twisted monstrosity. 

[In Exile]

To me, all of those people are still alive in the Inquisitor/Dorian "present" timeline, so the lives are not being "erased." And in fact all those that were were killed since then will be restored. If you look at the timeline from the perspective of Inquisitor/Dorian, hundreds of thousands (or more?) people died in the space of a few seconds (or however long your loading screen is), and they are actually bringing people back to life (again, from their own perspective).

 

If I erase the last decade of your life, I've killed "you". The very fear of death - the very fear of our mortality - is to have our "self" erased. That we do without a doubt in In Hushed Whispers. The very point is to erase from existence the last year of experience. Awful year, to be sure. Death is probably better. But it's absolutely a death. Possibly worse, if we think those people would have gotten an afterlife and now won't. 

 

From "their" perspective, they cease to exist (boo!) or through some weird multiverse idea, are totally stuck in that awful hell anyway. What gets to live is a past version of them that never experienced the future. 

[nightscrawl]

When I said "their perspective" I was referring to Inquisitor/Dorian. They go and return, so everything is one continuous event for those two people. But that's not the case with everyone else, who never experienced their deaths in the past/present.

 

At any rate, I don't feel that it is a good comparison with what Solas wants to do.

[Mistic]

In talking to Leliana, Dorian says, "Alexius sent us into the future. This, his victory, his Elder One -- it was never meant to be."
 
It's rather odd that one of the paraphrases for the Inquisitor is "This isn't real," because that's not what is reflected in the actual words.
[1. I’m sorry for what happened.] I’m sorry for everything you suffered.
[2. This isn’t real.] If we get back to the present and stop Alexius, then you’ll never have to go through this.
[3. I have to get back.] I need to find Alexius and reverse the spell.
 
Nothing in any of those lines indicates that they don't care, or think that none of this was real. In fact, if you ask Dorian at the start, "And what happens if we can’t get back?" his response is, "Then we get comfortable in our new present."
 
When Leliana lashes out at Dorian -- "This is all pretend to you, some future you hope will never exist," -- she is wrong. Her reaction is understandable in the circumstance, but it is not a fair one.

 

Interestingly, I read the same lines and I come to the opposite conclusion, except in the case of the Inquisitor's choice 1.

-"You'll never have to go through this". Sorry, but what? I've already gone through this! That 'you' is Past Timeline Leliana. I'm not that Leliana." In fact, that's her answer: "I suffered. The whole world suffered. It was real".

-"I need to find Alexius and reverse the spell". "So everything can be solved with undoing a spell? Great! What about all the suffering we went through? Can that be undone so easily?". The answer is "no", of course.

 

And then, of course, it's Dorian's words. "It was never meant to be". It happened, and who says destiny should be otherwise? Aren't we angry at Solas for not accepting this reality that has brought pain and devastation to his people? He could say "it was never meant to be" too, and indeed, we know now that the natural state of reality should be a world without the Veil.

 

So, yeah, with the same information, I come to the same conclusion as her. And she is being fairer than you give her credit for, because despite it all, she's still willing to fight and sacrifice herself so the Inquisitor and Dorian have a chance.

 

I suppose this is just you and I looking at it differently.

To me, all of those people are still alive in the Inquisitor/Dorian "present" timeline, so the lives are not being "erased." And in fact all those that were were killed since then will be restored. If you look at the timeline from the perspective of Inquisitor/Dorian, hundreds of thousands (or more?) people died in the space of a few seconds (or however long your loading screen is), and they are actually bringing people back to life (again, from their own perspective).

 

Their perspective is not the only perspective, and that's the point of Leliana being angry at them.

 

At any rate, I don't feel that it is a good comparison with what Solas wants to do.

 

The comparison is faulty, but for different reasons.

-First, the Inquisitor is innocent about Alexius playing with time, while Solas brought it on himself.

-The Inquisitor has friends they want to save and reasonable expectations about the future they want to build, even if it means damning a timeline, while Solas would damn the world to bring back the remnants of a civilization (not its people) and the only people who will be saved is a group of tyrants who are his worst enemies. Given his track record, I don't trust his contingency plans.