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[Patient.Zero]

in the pantheon before the events of the Dragon Age?

I know that he is currently the god of rebellion, but he gave himself that title for telling the elves the truth about their vallaslin (that they were slave markings) and the Evanuris (that they were just powerful mages abusing their authority) when he created the veil. So for the hundreds or thousands of years before that happened, what did he represent? I don't think he could have been starting rebellions left and right, because the only people to rebel against were the members of the Pantheon, and I doubt the elves would have been down to "fight the power" if they thought the power they were fighting were gods. Which has me thinking that there is a period of time where Solas was not the god of rebellion, but still a member of the pantheon.

I also know that for people who don't know the truth about the vallaslin or the Evanuris, Fen'Harel is considered the god of betrayal or trickery. However I'm not sure if that's what he would have chosen to represent during the time before the rebellion. So, what do you think?

[thats1evildude]

Truth be told, I don't think it was Solas' choice to be part of the Evanuris. He was named Fen'Harel by his enemies and adopted the moniker as a badge of defiance. Eventually, the People came to think of him as the God of Betrayal. Perhaps the Evanuris even named him as such to explain his considerable power level; the reason he could stand against the gods was because he was a god himself.

[Patient.Zero]

Fen'Harel is only considered the god of betrayal by some because of the his role in the disappearance of the other Evanuris. Which, without the necessary context was a pretty treacherous thing to do (though intent aside the results were cataclysmic either way). I'm talking about before that happened. When the pantheon was originaly formed. Solas talks a lot about how powerful organizations always fall into misuse, and I figure like most things he mentions, that's in reference to his time as an Evanuris.

Secondly, I don't think Solas was the figurative nerdy girl who the cool kids realize are special and gets to sit at the popular table. Or an underdog the pantheon had to include in order to keep hold of their power. I think Solas was an elite from the beginning and then for an undermined amount of time, he wasn't considered a rebel or a backstabber. 

[Dai Grepher]

I think he was Mythal's "pet". Like her guard dog. A mabari before mabari existed. Eventually he grew to become her friend. But I think he always willingly served her. I think he still does unwittingly. According to his unfinished painting, it seems he was present when Mythal was murdered. Maybe he feels he failed to protect her. So he ran off in his grief and plotted to tear down the whole kingdom.

 

He attacks Flemeth because he recognizes that she holds a part of Mythal, and wanted to free that essence from the human witch.

 

I think his plan to tear down the Veil is something Flemeth and Mythal have accounted for, and it is part of Mythal's plan for revenge. But first the evanuris must be freed.

[ModernAcademic]

Probably someone akin to Loki. Or a servant of Mythal. 

[Gervaise]

"I was Solas first."  Solas means pride but who named him thus?    Was it a title he took for himself to remind him how he had lacked wisdom at some point or was it a title given to him because he demonstrated pride in wanting to be more than he was?

 

I thought the story about the servant of Dirthamen who took the form of the gods might be about Solas, although other people have said they think it is about one of the Forgotten Ones.   Yet the other writings from the Well of Sorrows are all about either the actions of the Creator evanuris or the memories of Abelas, a servant of Mythal,  so I thought that it made more sense for it to be about Fen'Harel.     The evanuris warn about the many forms of Fen'Harel and his self portrait shows a wolf with many eyes.   At the end of the text about the servant, it says that Elgar'nan was going to judge him and there follows an image of a shadowy mass, that may be one form or many, with blazing eyes.   If it was Solas, may be Elgar'nan thought a fitting punishment for his pride would be to serve as the guardian of Mythal in the form of a wolf and he was bound to her service.   When Mythal seemed dead that compulsion may have been broken but he continued voluntarily to pursue his purpose or it could be that he was bound for eternity as with the Well of Sorrows and as Abelas says he is bound.  

 

I keep coming back to the Canticle of Shartan, that WoT2 says may actually be based more on an old elven folktale about a trickster warrior who fought against tyrants.  Given that Andraste never actually reached Minrathous, most of the tale is fanciful if it relates to her history.   However, if it is really about Mythal and Solas, it is far more revealing, particularly when Mythal/Andraste gives Solas/Shartan an object and says "Take this, my champion, and free our people forever".   That almost sounds like some sort of geas.    When he has his encounter with Flemeth and they both express sorrow, I wonder if in Mythal's case she is apologising for having placed the geas upon him because he is bound to fulfil his mission for evermore until their people are finally free.

 

It is clear from the writing by Abelas that he changed his name on entering Mythal's service and changed it again to Abelas (Sorrow) on her death.     So whilst Solas may still be the elf he always was, he could well have changed his name several times as his role did.   He never really had a role in the pantheon of the gods, since he never claimed godhood and the evanuris probably did not regard him as such but merely a rebel upstart and traitor.    The designation as a god of trickery/deception/betrayal would have more to do with how he was perceived after he imprisoned the evanuris.    The later elves, born after the Veil was raised, assumed that only another god would be able to do this, although they do acknowledge that he belonged neither to the Creators, nor the Forgotten Ones.   Bear in mind that Gelduran, one of the Forgotten Ones, shares Solas' view that the evanuris were not really gods and that it is deeds, not nature, that give you the right to rule over others.   He even states "There are no gods, only subject and object, the acted and the acted upon" just as Solas says he believes only in "Cause and effect".   

[myahele]

Since Solas' stratues are everywhere in Mythal (and their close relationship)I am guessing that he was originally one of her trusted companions until he was "risen up"

 

Thing is, the words modern day elves use now have been muddied up and lost in translation. Fen'harel never orignally meant Betrayer

 

 

The Dalish use "harellan" to mean "traitor to one's kin," but the word does not appear in any elven text before the Towers Age. The ancient root-word is related to "harillen," or opposition, and "hellathen," or noble struggle. The Dalish call Fen'Harel a god of deception, but I posit a far more accurate translation would be "god of rebellion."

 

If anything, the Evanuris and co called him "Rebellious Dog" if anything. Pretty fitting considering his "guard dog" statues throughout.

 

He took it as form of pride ... now current elves call him a traitor

[Patient.Zero]

"I was Solas first."  Solas means pride but who named him thus?

 

His parents? 

 

I understand that he was considered a traitor out of context after the veil formed and the rest of the Evanuris disappeared, and I understand that with context he was considered a rebel leader. But What I'm wondering is what he was considered as before these events. It seems to me like most of the information about Fen'harel is in relation to those two distinct views of him. Lore brought forward either supports Solas in one position or the other. But What was he before everything went to heck? 

 

It's an intriguing thought to see him as a servant of Mythal but I'm not sure if I believe that 100%. Why would a servant have a seat on the pantheon? Why would a servant be given an Evanuris name? Why would someone be considered to be a servant in the first place if they have the power of a "god"? Though... He was wearing armour similar to Abelas who as you've mentioned was a known servant of Mythal when you see him again in Trespasser. However having similar armour to Abelas doesn't necessarily mean he too is an a subservient position. It just means the amour is ancient elven. Perhaps Solas just preferred donning gold plated amour after spending so long wearing an assortment of hides.     

[myahele]

Just like Ghilan'nain was just a regular citizen whose abilities made her a candidate to become an Evanuris, the same could be said about Solas. 

 

No matter his original rank, he ascended to become considered worthy enough to become part of the Pantheon. Also, being a (willing) servant of Mythal doesn't mean that he was a slave. And even if he was then it means he was risen up to his current status.

 

Whatever made them a "god" Solas never viewed himself, nor them as such. In fact, the one forgotten ones (whom Fen'harel is also associated with) Geldaurran don't consider them as such. 

 

In trespasser Colas has a dialogue: "He was to give out wisdom, not orders" whether or not this is Solas ... who knows. But my theory is that he was an "advisor" of sorts to the Elvhen. Kinda like how he "advises" us throughout the game, perhaps he did the same? Afterall, Pride (Solas) is a corruption of Wisdom.

 

As for the armor, maybe it's not gold at all? I know there are ancient Elvhen armor that says something like "it's material is unknown"

[Ambient_Riot]

My guess? Solas was likely a general alongside the Evanuris in the war he describes to us. After it ended, he probably remained in some capacity, perhaps in service to Mythal until the Evanuris started propagating the idea that they were gods and practicing slavery. After which he kicked off his little rebellion and got his name.

[Dai Grepher]

It's an intriguing thought to see him as a servant of Mythal but I'm not sure if I believe that 100%. Why would a servant have a seat on the pantheon? Why would a servant be given an Evanuris name? Why would someone considered to be a servant in the first place if they have the power of a "god"? Though... He was wearing armour similar to Abelas who as you've mentioned was a known servant of Mythal when you see him again in Trespasser. However having similar armour to Abelas doesn't necessarily mean he too is an a subservient position. It just means the amour is ancient elven. Perhaps Solas just preferred donning gold plated amour after spending so long wearing an assortment of hides.     

 

I doubt he was considered a member of the pantheon by the evanuris. They seemed to have hated him, and called him a trickster. His title was given to him by the evanuris. He says it was an insult he took as a badge of pride. Solas could have rivaled the evanuris by gaining enough knowledge, power, and allies. But he never saw them as gods.

 

I don't think the armor means anything.

[VorexRyder]

The Elvhen once had Wolf Companions the same way Fereldans have Mabari Companions, maybe he was the God of that? Or if the Old Gods were the "Chosen" High Priests/Lieutenants of the Evanuris, he was Mythal's? Maybe both?

[Reznore57]

My theory is first he was Mythal's champion.

And him rising to power was a political move from Mythal.

Ghilan'nain was made a Goddess by Andruil , she was one of her favorite.

So it would have happened before.

 

Now it seems  there was huge trouble among the Evanuris before Mythal was murdered, Andruil getting crazy and causing chaos , Falon'din feeling bloodthirsty.Mythal was also the one to step forward and she attacked them.

The fact that Gods could attack each others , and each had their own followers , well it's a recipe for a civil war waiting to happen.

I think Mythal took a gamble and she wanted to make Solas sort of a God of the People.

I think Mythal thought her main protection was the love and devotion of her people , and should the other Gods tried to hurt her, they would be in huge trouble.Think angry mob.

 

There's the whole tale about GHilan'nain tricking a follower of Dirthamen to take on the Divine form , imho it was all a plot against Mythal.Mythal was supposed to punish the sinner in public , but with this very act the guy sort of proved the Gods were fraud , and he was tricked by a God.Anyway the sinner plead Mythal for mercy , and she turned away.

Compared to the other tales when she always sided with her People against the Gods going loose , this time she couldn't.And she send Elgar'nan (the God of Grrr Smah Grrr) to deal with things.

 

So yeah it makes sense to me Mythal raised a powerful " puppet " to stand with her as an Evanuris , and one who like her could gain the favors of the Elves.

Now where Mythal was untouchable (at least in public) , Solas wasn't .So I guess the other Evanuris went on a campaign and spread the word the People shouldn't trust him.

[ModernAcademic]

If he were a servant, the fact that he removed the vallaslin means he rebelled against one of the Evanuris. He couldn't be a servant of Mythal. Otherwise, he would still wear it (the tree symbol). 

 

Maybe he won Mythal's favor when rebelling against one of the Evanuris' folly. And Mythal, seeing how the People were being enslaved and sacrificed, helped his rebellion in some fashion.

[Patchwork]

A protector in dreams perhaps?

 

Most of the stories connect him to the Fade in some way and the Dalish use his statue to ward off nasty spirits.

 

In the story of the Slow Arrow elves do pray to him but maybe like Ghilan'nain he was a later addition to the pantheon and he didn't really have his own physical territory like the others.

[Patient.Zero]

I think most stories connect him to the fade because he created it, or rather, created the veil that separates it from reality. It's kinda funny the veil. The people of Thedas have spend so much time and fighting over how "unnatural" magic and the fade its, but it turns out it's just as natural as the steel in Templar swords and fire of Chantry pyres. I wonder if people will start to play mages less now that they are technically no longer the underdog.

 

Anyway, Do you know if Ghilan'nain has the same level of power as the rest of the pantheon? Though Andruil "rose her up" I'm unsure if that means she was just an un-pantheoned Evanuris or if she was taught or given the power of an Evanuris. A question I suppose I should ask of Solas as well. 

[myahele]

 

Ghilan'nain kept herself apart from the People. She used her power to create animals none had ever seen. The skies teemed with her monsters, the land with her beasts. Andruil hunted them all, and after a year of killing, approached Ghilan'nain with an offer: the gods would share their power with Ghilan'nain, but only if she destroyed her creations, for they were too untamed to remain among the People. Ghilan'nain agreed and asked for three days to undo what she had made.

 

 

The bolded parts I interpret that as the rest of the Evanuris wanted her to join (they sent Andruil to speak in their stead) so that their citizens/ territory wont be plagued by Ghilan'nain's creations.

 

It seems as if Ghilan'nain was just naturally "artistic" and used her power to create vast amounts of creatures.

 

Ghilan'nain is also stated to the the youngest/ newest of the Pantheon

[Sah291]

Well, I know there is there the theory out there about the ancient elves being originally descended from spirits, and that Solas is/was a Wisdom Spirit or Pride Demon originally. I guess it depends if he was ever really worshiped as a god prior to being known as a god of rebellion. I'm guessing he wasn't, because the way he compares being given the title of "Fen'Harel" to "Inquisitor" seems to suggest it was his act of rebellion that caused him to become known and feared over time... not that he already was. He also says it was a war that caused the rest of the Evanuris to eventually be remembered as gods. So neither were they considered gods prior to this event. 

 

So what was this war exactly? Was this the war with the Forgotten Ones (where Fen'Harel is said to have betrayed both sides), and who were the Forgotten Ones? Or was this a war with the Titans? Did the Evanuris fight a war to overthrow the Titans? We really don't know enough about this war yet... but it must have significantly altered the power structure of Thedas/the Fade, and gave rise to a new generation of gods.

[Dai Grepher]

My theory is first he was Mythal's champion.

And him rising to power was a political move from Mythal.

Ghilan'nain was made a Goddess by Andruil , she was one of her favorite.

So it would have happened before.

 

Now it seems  there was huge trouble among the Evanuris before Mythal was murdered, Andruil getting crazy and causing chaos , Falon'din feeling bloodthirsty.Mythal was also the one to step forward and she attacked them.

The fact that Gods could attack each others , and each had their own followers , well it's a recipe for a civil war waiting to happen.

I think Mythal took a gamble and she wanted to make Solas sort of a God of the People.

I think Mythal thought her main protection was the love and devotion of her people , and should the other Gods tried to hurt her, they would be in huge trouble.Think angry mob.

 

There's the whole tale about GHilan'nain tricking a follower of Dirthamen to take on the Divine form , imho it was all a plot against Mythal.Mythal was supposed to punish the sinner in public , but with this very act the guy sort of proved the Gods were fraud , and he was tricked by a God.Anyway the sinner plead Mythal for mercy , and she turned away.

Compared to the other tales when she always sided with her People against the Gods going loose , this time she couldn't.And she send Elgar'nan (the God of Grrr Smah Grrr) to deal with things.

 

So yeah it makes sense to me Mythal raised a powerful " puppet " to stand with her as an Evanuris , and one who like her could gain the favors of the Elves.

Now where Mythal was untouchable (at least in public) , Solas wasn't .So I guess the other Evanuris went on a campaign and spread the word the People shouldn't trust him.

 

It's possible he was Mythal's champion. If what Cole says in Trespasser is about Solas, then he came forth because she asked him.

 

The case with the Dirthamen servant may have had something to do with Mythal's downfall. I think this story tells how Mythal was becoming corrupt like all the other false gods. She either didn't care about the person, or she acted out of self-interest. She passed neither mercy nor judgment. She deferred to another being who is known to be wrathful. Perhaps she saw it as a sleight against her, since the dragon is her spirit animal or whatever. She should have judged the one who deceived him, which was Ghilin'nain. Or Dirthamen for not instructing his servant better. And the servant should have been given a more fitting sentence. But maybe she was in a no-win situation. If she were too lenient, the people would see her as weak. If she took action against the other "gods", she would be seen as unjust or warmongering. So she passed the problem to someone else. I think it was instances like this that made Solas turn away from Mythal. Eventually he burned her off his face, and left a scar. Then he became a rebel and encouraged others to turn away from all the evanuris, including Mythal. In hindsight, this may have been what Ghilin'nain and Dirthamen intended all along, to get Solas to turn against Mythal. A memory in the Vir Dirthara shows the evanuris circled around Fen'Harel trying to contain him or something. So maybe Mythal was forced to act against him as well.

 

Then, with Mythal focused on stopping others, such as Andruil or Falon'Din, the evanuris conspired against her to get rid of her since she proved to be the most powerful out of all of them. The best, as Solas called her. Now, I doubt she was more powerful than Elgar'nan, but she had hold of his... "control rod", as Zevran might call it. So she could calm Elgar'nan with her... talents. So he wasn't as much of a threat. But I think he eventually agreed to her murder. That is why Mythal feels betrayed, as Flemeth was betrayed.

 

If he were a servant, the fact that he removed the vallaslin means he rebelled against one of the Evanuris. He couldn't be a servant of Mythal. Otherwise, he would still wear it (the tree symbol). 

 

Maybe he won Mythal's favor when rebelling against one of the Evanuris' folly. And Mythal, seeing how the People were being enslaved and sacrificed, helped his rebellion in some fashion.

 

I don't think he rebelled against Mythal directly. More like he decided to stop following her, and then encouraged others to stop following all the evanuris altogether. In Trespasser Cole says "he left a scar when he burned her off his face", and this is likely referring to Solas, since he burns vallaslin off faces and he has a scar on his forehead.

 

I don't think Mythal helped him. But I think she agreed with his motives of freeing the people, and she did nothing against him. And this might be why the evanuris turned on her.

 

I think most stories connect him to the fade because he created it, or rather, created the veil that separates it from reality. It's kinda funny the veil. The people of Thedas have spend so much time and fighting over how "unnatural" magic and the fade its, but it turns out it's just as natural as the steel in Templar swords and fire of Chantry pyres. I wonder if people will start to play mages less now that they are technically no longer the underdog.

 

Anyway, Do you know if Ghilan'nain has the same level of power as the rest of the pantheon? Though Andruil "rose her up" I'm unsure if that means she was just an un-pantheoned Evanuris or if she was taught or given the power of an Evanuris. A question I suppose I should ask of Solas as well. 

 

The stories connect him to tricking the elven "gods" and sealing them away, and even that is only half right. I think the Fade and magic still are unnatural compared to the real world. I think the philosophy of thedosians is that magic should stay in the Fade, as that is where it belongs. I suspect mages will actually become more prominent since 1. We're going to Tevinter. 2. The Veil may be torn down and "the magic will come back, all of it". 3. The kingdoms of Thedas will need mages to unravel the mysteries behind the ancient elvhen, the titans, and all the other magical things that pose a threat. So maybe people will be more inclined to play as a mage. Unless DA4 has a new class, I will probably have my protag be a mage, even though my Inquisitor is my mage in the current triad of protagonists.

 

I don't think she was. No. She seems to have the ability to create creatures. So, a summoner type? A beast-maker? It seems that each of the evanuris have their own specialties, but all are mages. No different from how some mage Heroes are Spirit Healers, or Bloodmages, or Battlemages, or Arcane Warriors, or Keepers, or Shapeshifters. It seems Mythal was a Shapeshifter, as was Flemeth and Morrigan. Ghilin'nain may have been one too, since she tricked Dirthamen's servant into transforming into a dragon (I suspect). Dirthamen was probably a "Keeper", since he is associated with the earth. Though I'm sure they weren't called "Keepers" way back then. Mythal may have been a "Keeper" as well. Falon'Din was likely a Bloodmage. Mythal was probably one as well. June may have been sort of like the Formari of the Circle. But all in all, the evanuris had extensive knowledge of various magical spells and techniques. Elgar'nan's probably related more to dispelling and destroying, and he is probably an Arcane Warrior. But those like Ghilin'nain, Solas, and maybe June, were probably spirits or normal elvhen first, and then they became more when the existing evanuris taught them more stuff.

 

Cole confirmed something that I have believed since Origins. He states that worship makes you more, but Solas just wanted to help. I suspected that the old gods became what they were because they were worshiped. We see this in the High Dragon at the Temple of Andraste as well. The cultists worshiped it, and it seemed to have developed a consciousness of sorts that kept it from attacking wildly. We can also see this in Jaws of Hakkon with the dragon and the various Avvar "god" spirits.

 

Well, I know there is there the theory out there about the ancient elves being originally descended from spirits, and that Solas is/was a Wisdom Spirit or Pride Demon originally. I guess it depends if he was ever really worshiped as a god prior to being known as a god of rebellion. I'm guessing he wasn't, because the way he compares being given the title of "Fen'Harel" to "Inquisitor" seems to suggest it was his act of rebellion that caused him to become known and feared over time... not that he already was. He also says it was a war that caused the rest of the Evanuris to eventually be remembered as gods. So neither were they considered gods prior to this event.

 

So what was this war exactly? Was this the war with the Forgotten Ones (where Fen'Harel is said to have betrayed both sides), and who were the Forgotten Ones? Or was this a war with the Titans? Did the Evanuris fight a war to overthrow the Titans? We really don't know enough about this war yet... but it must have significantly altered the power structure of Thedas/the Fade, and gave rise to a new generation of gods.

 

I don't know if Solas was always a spirit or if he was born in the flesh, but it seems you're right about the wars. I think Mythal became a "goddess" after destroying one of the titans and finding that it could be mined for lyrium. The memory on the titan mural states "Hail Mythal, adjudicator" and some other stuff. So maybe this was the first time the people started to see her as more than what she was.

 

Probably the titans. I think they were already evanuris by the time the Forgotten Ones showed up. I think this was near the end of Elvhen'nan.

[Dai Grepher]

I would like to add two new theories to this.

 

Perhaps Solas' original role was to teach others or impart wisdom. He did this by painting pictures. The mural of the titan being destroyed, which is found in an unknown location, was likely painted by Solas, and there is a Dread Wolf statue in front of it. The mural of him becoming the Dread Wolf was also likely painted by him. The murals in the Vir Dirthara also look like his work. I also think he is the one who painted all the random murals we see scattered all across the south and in the ruins in Trespasser. You know the ones.

 

Second, if you look at the ruins in the thaig in Trespasser, you will see Dread Wolf statues on the balcony overlooking the tombs and lyrium holding chamber. Above those tombs are Mythal statues. So perhaps this shows that Mythal and Solas were working together to mine lyrium from the titans. The tombs could be to house the elvhen servants while they underwent Uthenera. Or maybe they held spirits who would rise as warriors. That's actually where most of my first theory comes from about Solas being one of Mythal's servants.

 

And a third side theory, there is a plaque in the Darvaarad that states something like; one watches the hunter, one is hunted in turn, one outsmarts them all. There are statues and Veilfire torches with this. The statues, an owl, a halla, a dragon, and the wolf, seem to correspond to Falon'Din (I think his is the owl, either that or Andruil), then Ghilin'nain, then Mythal, then Solas. At this point it seems like Solas is no longer working for Mythal, and Mythal has something against the hunter, whoever that is. The owl is facing the wolf in the Darvaarad, but this might not have been the original placement of the statues, and the Qunari removed them from whatever temple they were in and moved them to their base. But it's possible that the hunter is the wolf, and if this is the case then Mythal hunts the wolf in turn. The one who outsmarts them all might be the wolf, or it could be the owl, or it could be the one who read the plaque.