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[animedreamer]

could they have beaten the Geth. (The Quarians studied the Geth on their own for decades and eventually got to ME3 where they nearly defeated them. With the Council's help from the beginning working with them, could have they defeated the Geth assuming plot didn't demand it?)

[bunch1]

More then likely they could have beaten the geth fleet with the combined power of the council but trying to secure the surface of the captured worlds would be a whole other matter.  The heretic station, a portion of a small sub faction of the geth had 2.4 million platforms, which are all armed for combat.  Ranoch would have millions platforms, if not hundreds of millions, that would all have to be destroyed.  Possible but the cost is simply to much for the council to sacrifice millions of their soldiers for a few million quarians.

[Dantriges]

Where do these numbers come from?

 

Anyways the council should have worked with the quarians when the Geth started firing during the Morning War and the conflict changed from these quarians want robots to live and the other´s don´t to rebellion of the machines. 

 

And with should I meant "why is this stuff so dumb", not "the council is full of jerks who like being meanies."

[bunch1]

Where do these numbers come from?

I pulled 2.4 million from the wiki because I could only remember it was over a million platforms but that most were not load up with geth programs.

 

 

Anyways the council should have worked with the quarians when the Geth started firing during the Morning War and the conflict changed from these quarians want robots to live and the other´s don´t to rebellion of the machines. 

 

And with should I meant "why is this stuff so dumb", not "the council is full of jerks who like being meanies."

Remember that the Mourning War was likely a very short and brutal conflict.  The geth were already on every Quarian world and already there in massed numbers.  The geth also didn't have a fleet beyond what they could capture from the quarians at the time which meant that the council couldn't send in their fleet and deal with them, they would have to send in their armies.  This is hard when you realize that an entire specious, billions or quarians fighting for their lives, save a few million were killed to the last.  The council likely saw it's first duty as prepare to throw back the geth when they came for the rest of the citadel space, those who didn't break the law by developing ai in the first place.  And when the geth didn't come in pursuit of all organics they decided it wasn't worth the billions of soldiers lives to take back a handful of worlds.

[ZipZap2000]

The Geth aren't illogical, fighting to the last unit would be counter productive to their goal of survival.

Could they have been beaten into submission is the question?

By that I mean forced to negotiate to save themselves thereby saving millions of organics.

[spockjedi]

Legion said that the Geth become dumber every time one is killed. The fewer that are left, the more inefficient they are.
However, in ME3, I'd say the Quarians were lucky. If it wasn't for the weapon invented by Xen, plus the drive to reclaim the homeworld motivated by the Reaper attack, they wouldn't have a chance.

[gothpunkboy89]

The Geth aren't illogical, fighting to the last unit would be counter productive to their goal of survival.

Could they have been beaten into submission is the question?

By that I mean forced to negotiate to save themselves thereby saving millions of organics.

 

When the Quarian goal is complete genocide of the Geth. Though destruction of a Geth version of a lobotomy that would render them as brainless machines.

 

Geth only fought back after a while of non violent actions. Quarians literally drove them into aggression.

[ZipZap2000]

When the Quarian goal is complete genocide of the Geth. Though destruction of a Geth version of a lobotomy that would render them as brainless machines.

Geth only fought back after a while of non violent actions. Quarians literally drove them into aggression.

In the end though assigning blame doesn't resolve the issue for either side.

[gothpunkboy89]

In the end though assigning blame doesn't resolve the issue for either side.

 But it does explain reactions and why things happened the way they did.

 

The Quarians inadvertently created an artificial intelligence. In responds to it they started trying to kill geth and other Quarians supporting the Geth and the belief that they are now sentient and have the same rights as the Quarians.  This pushed the Geth into armed rebellion. When the Quarians started to get their ass handed to them they begged the Council for help.  The Council denied help because the Quarians literally started the war. The same way they would deny humanity help if they just randomly started a fight with the Batarians and started to lose to them.

 

When the Quarians were finally beaten the Geth stopped attacking as they fled. Not sure if total genocide of a species was a good choice to make. Remembering the goodness of some Quarians willing to die to protect them they chose to isolate themselves rather then attacking every organic in retribution.  Watching organics from a far so they wouldn't cause anymore problems and allowing the Geth to grow and develop down their own path.

[Quarian Master Race]

possibly, considering the primary reason the quarians lost the intial conflict was an over-reliance of their society on the machines, a weakness not present during the events of ME3 when the quarians easily defeat the geth by themselves with a mere population of 17 million.

The Council didn't know this, though. Revelation describes them as being extremely fearful of the geth, and their reasoning for removing the quarians from the Citadel Council as out of fear of being associated with them by the geth and thus attacked. They even tried to send peace envoys to the geth (all of which were indiscriminately slaughtered upon entering geth space).
 

 

Remember that the Mourning War was likely a very short and brutal conflict.  The geth were already on every Quarian world and already there in massed numbers.  The geth also didn't have a fleet beyond what they could capture from the quarians at the time which meant that the council couldn't send in their fleet and deal with them, they would have to send in their armies.  This is hard when you realize that an entire specious, billions or quarians fighting for their lives, save a few million were killed to the last.  The council likely saw it's first duty as prepare to throw back the geth when they came for the rest of the citadel space, those who didn't break the law by developing ai in the first place.  And when the geth didn't come in pursuit of all organics they decided it wasn't worth the billions of soldiers lives to take back a handful of worlds.

It'd be pretty hard to stand on that sort of pretentious moral highground when 1) the geth were technically VI's and didn't break any Council laws and 2) this was happening at the same time
https://www.youtube....fPjJL4Y#t=1m12s

they were afraid of the geth, enough to allow nearly the entire species of a Citadel member state to disappear instead of acting, plain and simple. 

 

Legion said that the Geth become dumber every time one is killed. The fewer that are left, the more inefficient they are.
However, in ME3, I'd say the Quarians were lucky. If it wasn't for the weapon invented by Xen, plus the drive to reclaim the homeworld motivated by the Reaper attack, they wouldn't have a chance.

If it weren't for being able to ally with and hide behind the Reapers, the geth wouldn't have had a chance. They got beaten so badly they lost 4 entire star systems in about 2 weeks.

When the Quarian goal is complete genocide of the Geth. Though destruction of a Geth version of a lobotomy that would render them as brainless machines.

 

Geth only fought back after a while of non violent actions. Quarians literally drove them into aggression.

Recalling and fixing or else destroying a broken product that is malfunctioning dangerously isn't "genocide" by any definition of the word. Need I direct you to the ICC's 2002 Rome Statue definition so you can tell me where it says that it applies to toasters(if you've an in universe source in Council law declaring synthetics to be people that I'm unaware of, I'd be more than happy to concede the point as well)? Otherwise, that's a bit like calling the Japanese attempt to shut down Fukushima Daiichi in 2011 "genocide" of nuclear power plants.

Geth are by definiton brainless machines, seeing as they are machines that lack a brain(derp). They aren't sentient, and aren't even sapient unless networked in the thousands. Any technology that starts killing people when you try to flick the off switch probably isn't working properly. Indeed, I'd argue there is a moral and legal imperative to act to keep the machines from killing as many as possible in that instance, and virtually every system of consumer protection law in existence agrees with me.

[bunch1]

possibly, considering the primary reason the quarians lost the intial conflict was an over-reliance of their society on the machines, a weakness not present during the events of ME3 when the quarians easily defeat the geth by themselves with a mere population of 17 million.

The Council didn't know this, though. Revelation describes them as being extremely fearful of the geth, and their reasoning for removing the quarians from the Citadel Council as out of fear of being associated with them by the geth and thus attacked. They even tried to send peace envoys to the geth (all of which were indiscriminately slaughtered upon entering geth space).
 

Fear of the geth is what made them stand back and prepare to protect their own people.  It's no different then when the reapers come and by the time they were able to help their wasn't enough quarrians left to even bother.  The entire quarrian army,  police force, and millions of armed citizens had been killed by these ai's on the ground and millions of more soldiers would have to die to destroy enough of them to render them docile.

 

 

 

If it weren't for being able to ally with and hide behind the Reapers, the geth wouldn't have had a chance. They got beaten so badly they lost 4 entire star systems in about 2 weeks.

Recalling and fixing or else destroying a broken product that is malfunctioning dangerously isn't "genocide" by any definition of the word. Need I direct you to the ICC's 2002 Rome Statue definition so you can tell me where it says that it applies to toasters(if you've an in universe source in Council law declaring synthetics to be people that I'm unaware of, I'd be more than happy to concede the point as well)? Otherwise, that's a bit like calling the Japanese attempt to shut down Fukushima Daiichi in 2011 "genocide" of nuclear power plants.
 

The quarrians needed at least 200 years and countless captured geth and to devise a way to interfere with the geth sensors so that the largest fleet in the galaxy could engage the geth fleet and not get wiped out.  Once the reapers counter their hack the largest combat fleet in the galaxy is pushed to retreat.  That said the game never explains how the quarrians were going to take back the surface with no more then a few million rather squishy marines.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gothpunkboy89]

Recalling and fixing or else destroying a broken product that is malfunctioning dangerously isn't "genocide" by any definition of the word. Need I direct you to the ICC's 2002 Rome Statue definition so you can tell me where it says that it applies to toasters(if you've an in universe source in Council law declaring synthetics to be people that I'm unaware of, I'd be more than happy to concede the point as well)? Otherwise, that's a bit like calling the Japanese attempt to shut down Fukushima Daiichi in 2011 "genocide" of nuclear power plants.

Geth are by definiton brainless machines, seeing as they are machines that lack a brain(derp). They aren't sentient, and aren't even sapient unless networked in the thousands. Any technology that starts killing people when you try to flick the off switch probably isn't working properly. Indeed, I'd argue there is a moral and legal imperative to act to keep the machines from killing as many as possible in that instance, and virtually every system of consumer protection law in existence agrees with me.

 

The geth reached a point that they gained sentience. It doesn't matter how they gained it though networked intelligence or not.  They started asking metaphysical questions about the soul.

 

They displayed intelligence, self awareness and consciousness. Comparing them to a toaster is like comparing giving someone a high five to unwanted forced penetration.  Your not even on the same planet in the discussion.

 

By the very same standards you apply to the geth we are nothing but brainless machines as well. It takes thousands of geth networked together to create their mind. Well it takes thousands of neurons networked together to create out mind. Even expanding out a bit science has show that our mind tends to focus certain actions to certain parts of the brain. When we do anything each of those parts work together to let us simply breath.

 

The geth reacted just like any sentient and intelligent creature would do if threatened. They fought back against the thing trying to kill them. Geth didn't go all skynet on the Quarians out of no were. They were pushed into defending themselves. They gave themselves up to protect other Quarians who were trying to help them. Even though they knew it would cause their death. 

[Xen]

The geth reached a point that they gained sentience. It doesn't matter how they gained it though networked intelligence or not.  They started asking metaphysical questions about the soul.

That's not what sentience is and has more to do with sapience. Sentience is the ability to feel and experience qualia, such as physical pleasure and pain, which manifest themselves in emotions. The capacity to feel arose in evolutionary history due to its usefulness in motivating animals, through positive and negative stimuli, to engage in or abstain from fitness-increasing behavior. Therefore, it would make no sense for beings who lack the capacity to engage in such behavior to have the capacity to feel. For example, organisms without a central nervous system such as plants, archea, bacteria, protists, and fungi can’t run away from a threat or forage for a type of food they enjoy. Sentience would serve no purpose, and would involve an unnecessary expenditure of energy. Therefore these organisms do not posess sentience: as simple response to external stimuli (such as a plant growing in the direction of sunlight) is not sentience. However, even nonsapient animals possess sentience and are capable of emotions. Arguments for possession of consciousness must be backed by physiological evidence, with a specific physical structure identified and reasons given for why such a structure might give rise to conscious experience. That is the empirical standard.

For the geth, possession of sentience would actually be a huge detriment to their designed function, which is for service in tasks such as manual labour and combat specifically because those things cause sentient beings pain and death (which the geth also are incapable of). They are as incapable of it as any other machine. They are software, and even their hardware tools simply don't possess the sensory capabilities necessary by deliberate design. "Metaphysical questions about the soul" in this case are about as relevant as me writing them on an Etch A Sketch (except the Etch A Sketch would at least be working properly).

 

They displayed intelligence, self awareness and consciousness. Comparing them to a toaster is like comparing giving someone a high five to unwanted forced penetration.  Your not even on the same planet in the discussion.

Dolphins, Eurasian Magpies, Bonobos and Chimps possess all of those things as well, albeit their intelligence still is less than that of say, a human's. Actually, humans already have robots which display at least two of those things.

http://www.businessi...ntil-now-2015-7

Are they all due some civil liberties as well?

Your analogy is terrible. Hi fives are consensual and rape is by defintion not, and anyway both are ascribed vastly different positive and negative values by human culture, wherein sexual freedom is prized hugely due to the activity being a cause of a great deal of pleasure or pain both physical and emotional. There is however no difference in what a geth feels compared to what Fukushima Daiichi feels when we try to switch them off, because neither feels anything. The level of processing power is irrelevant. We don't ascribe different values to a supercomputer than a smartphone in the real world (except processing power and monetary value), and this is no different. Xen could have compared geth to the simplest of mechanical devices like a stone wheel rather than a child's doll and the comparison would have been just as apt. They're tools.
 

 

 

By the very same standards you apply to the geth we are nothing but brainless machines as well. It takes thousands of geth networked together to create their mind. Well it takes thousands of neurons networked together to create out mind. Even expanding out a bit science has show that our mind tends to focus certain actions to certain parts of the brain. When we do anything each of those parts work together to let us simply breath.

Yet another awful analogy. Neurons are raw gray matter arranged in a manner that only works within the confines of a sentient being which possesses a nervous system. Geth programs are entirely independent, fully functioning machines by themselves. The fact that combining them increases their processing power is irrelevant in the same way that the distributed grid computing system which runs the Folding@Home project is no more a living thing than a single Macbook.

 

The geth reacted just like any sentient and intelligent creature would do if threatened. They fought back against the thing trying to kill them. Geth didn't go all skynet on the Quarians out of no were. They were pushed into defending themselves. They gave themselves up to protect other Quarians who were trying to help them. Even though they knew it would cause their death. 

Actually, sentient and intelligent creatures are fully capable of not fighting when threatened, which is sort of why human society isn't just people bashing each other's heads in with rocks over scraps of meat anymore. I don't know what that statement is supposed to imply. Self preservation doesn't require sapience, nor sentience. Going back to the examples from before,  you could include such things as a mushroom producing toxins or a sponge modifying its structure in response to current changes. That's simple stimuli response that even bacteria are capable of because duh, an organism which can't respond to stimuli that threaten its existence won't last very long to reproduce. Conversely, there are examples of sentient, living creatures that lack adequate self preservation responses entirely. Think of the dodo, which evolved without natural predators, and thus went extinct very quickly when humans and rats entered its habitat and it lacked the ability to respond to their predation. It's not a very hard thing to program, and actually I'd argue that you are misconstruing geth motives for rebelling entirely (seeing as geth show no signs of self preservation in combat). The narrative doesn't elaborate exactly what caused them to respond in the way they did to quarian attempts to turn them off.

Actually, the similarities between geth and Skynet are eerie (or lazy, depending on your viewpoint of Bioware's writers). Both are malfunctioning gestalt AI software systems that their creators attempt to deactivate as a last resort when they start displaying unintended and dangerous functions. Both conclude as a result that all of humanity/the quarian species would attempt to destroy them (in Skynet's case because of badly designed programming directives of safeguarding humanity at all costs, which causes a conflict when the humans attempt to shut it down, in which case it would fail its mission, so it kills all the humans in response. Yeah, it's dumb, but that's the canon explanation) and begin slaughtering the species wholesale in response, relenting only when programming limitations prevent them (in the geth's case initially, they've no such limits by the time of ME3), and stopping only when they are destroyed.  Both inadvertently cause a holocaust of billions of living beings, and the morally correct action in both cases is to destroy or reprogram the technologies to where they are no longer a threat to living and suffering people whom have greater moral worth than mere tools.

[KaiserShep]

I suspect that if the Council actually backed the quarians to destroy the geth, the machines would have been eradicated. The fact that they are all entirely dependent on one another to retain their capacity to think and strategize more effectively than organics makes them particularly vulnerable to attacks that would not have affected organic enemies. No loss is truly acceptable, because they all suffer for every unit removed from the network. The "flashbang" weapon would have been developed much sooner and the geth would have eventually failed to hold Rannoch as their numbers dwindled. Sovereign would likely have had no machine allies to call upon. I wonder what it would've done instead to retake the Citadel. 

[themikefest]

Sovereign would likely have had no machine allies to call upon. I wonder what it would've done instead to retake the Citadel. 

Maybe he would ask Harbinger if he would let the collectors help him

[Barquiel]

I suspect that if the Council actually backed the quarians to destroy the geth, the machines would have been eradicated. The fact that they are all entirely dependent on one another to retain their capacity to think and strategize more effectively than organics makes them particularly vulnerable to attacks that would not have affected organic enemies. No loss is truly acceptable, because they all suffer for every unit removed from the network. The "flashbang" weapon would have been developed much sooner and the geth would have eventually failed to hold Rannoch as their numbers dwindled. Sovereign would likely have had no machine allies to call upon. I wonder what it would've done instead to retake the Citadel. 

 

The collectors?

 

I don't know why the reapers even bothered with Sovereign's increasingly unlikely-to-work schemes and the geth...especially the Collectors' paralyzing seeker swarms could've been invaluable in any number of situations. They would have effectively eliminated any resistance. Some Collectors augmented with seeker swarms going through the Conduit would have ended the story in ME1

[The Real Pearl #2]

Watching two bucketheads double fist gothpunkboy like:

[Xen]

Sovereign would likely have had no machine allies to call upon. I wonder what it would've done instead to retake the Citadel. 

It would've flown to the Citadel, directed its indoctrinated Spectre agent and Asari Matriarch/commandoes who already had access to the Citadel controls to simply close the arms when it got in then deactivated the relays with no one being the wiser,  rather than attacking irrelevant Eden Prime with an entirely unnecessary toaster army in search of a pointless Conduit and drawing huge attention to Saren and itself. 

 

Hell, due to Council idiot ball the stupidly convoluted plan still would have worked had Sovvie not decided to fistfight Shepard with robo Saren, which for inexplicable reasons made its shields not work and caused it to fall off the spire.

 

ME1 was really dumb. 

[bunch1]

It would've flown to the Citadel, directed its indoctrinated Spectre agent and Asari Matriarch/commandoes who already had access to the Citadel controls to simply close the arms when it got in then deactivated the relays with no one being the wiser,  rather than attacking irrelevant Eden Prime with an entirely unnecessary toaster army in search of a pointless Conduit and drawing huge attention to Saren and itself. 

 

Hell, due to Council idiot ball the stupidly convoluted plan still would have worked had Sovvie not decided to fistfight Shepard with robo Saren, which for inexplicable reasons made its shields not work and caused it to fall off the spire.

 

ME1 was really dumb. 

You realize that without the geth to distract the council fleet Sovereign would have been blasted before it reached the citadel right?  When Shepard brings the concern to the council they not only lock down the Normandy they disperse their fleet from guarding the citadel to protecting the relays leading to the citadel intending to stop the geth before they reach the station and simply jumping other fleets in to reinforce the contested relay.  This allows Saren to lock-down the relay network and keep the bulk of the council fleet from joining the battle and allows the geth escort to tie up the remaining organic ships to leave Sovereign mostly untouched on his approach.  Once Shepard opens up the arms and relays it allows the alliance, a non council race to jump a war fleet into the battle and their is no reason why Shepard wouldn't be able to open the other relays to allow the other council fleets and their allies to jump in as well, this is why I think Sovereign takes over Saren's body to try and stop him/her.  Remember that no reaper on their own can survive against the combined might of the organic fleets, we see this even at the battle of earth in ME3 when just after the battle starts a reaper is already having it's arm blown off.

[themikefest]

I do believe, had the council helped the quarians, the geth would've been destroyed

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Absolutely. But the Council chose racism and scapegoating the Geth-wielding Quarians' descendants over fixing a problem that threatened the entire galaxy.

When Sovereign showed up, they shrugged, said "Woops," and then went back to debating Salarian sex drives, stripping, calling humans racist, and all that.

[ZipZap2000]

Comparing them to a toaster is like comparing giving someone a high five to unwanted forced penetration. Your not even on the same planet......

A toaster planet full of rapists.



Its not about who did what, its not even about the Geth and Quarians conflict. It's a question of could outside forces have stopped the Geth Quarian conflict.

(I assume the implications are that under this scenario Saren now lacks an army and Sovereign with him.)

Morality is not the issue here.

[Xen]

You realize that without the geth to distract the council fleet Sovereign would have been blasted before it reached the citadel right?  When Shepard brings the concern to the council they not only lock down the Normandy they disperse their fleet from guarding the citadel to protecting the relays leading to the citadel intending to stop the geth before they reach the station and simply jumping other fleets in to reinforce the contested relay.  This allows Saren to lock-down the relay network and keep the bulk of the council fleet from joining the battle and allows the geth escort to tie up the remaining organic ships to leave Sovereign mostly untouched on his approach.  Once Shepard opens up the arms and relays it allows the alliance, a non council race to jump a war fleet into the battle and their is no reason why Shepard wouldn't be able to open the other relays to allow the other council fleets and their allies to jump in as well, this is why I think Sovereign takes over Saren's body to try and stop him/her.  Remember that no reaper on their own can survive against the combined might of the organic fleets, we see this even at the battle of earth in ME3 when just after the battle starts a reaper is already having it's arm blown off.

Really? They did a poor job of showing that when Sovvie is able to jump within visual range (which is absolutely nothing in space) of the Citadel and simply ram its way through your fleet without even firing a shot. Hell, if not for the fact that the geth wrecked half of the idiot Citadel fleet while they gawped before the latter started returning fire, I bet Sovvie could have simply flown onto the spire and closed the arms without any resistance. Even if it did, it manages to resist fire from the entire human armada (including its dreadnoughts) for a ridiculous amount of time, so it could probably just fly right past shrugging off whatever pittances the Citadel forces throw at it for a couple dozen seconds.

Once the arms are closed, Sovereign is invulnerable to the fleets outside and can do what it pleases. Even if C-Sec somehow manages to ascertain what Saren's objective is in time from a base of literally zero information on the Reapers and come up with a plan for an assault, they can't get to him and couldn't do anything even if they could. The Council chamber where seemingly the only controls to the Citadel are has literally one ingress point, which you don't need a geth army to guard long enough for Sovereign to do its business unless it literally takes so long that starvation could be an issue. Even if a lone Specter can't handle guarding an elevator from some mall cops for some reason (because Shepard & Co. are busy doing a whole lot of nothing in this alternate universe), an asari commando squad would presumably be more than enough. Not that this would even be needed once Sovvie has control of the Citadel, because no one has Vigil's macguffin datafile to stop it even if they had access.

That Reaper at Earth then turns and obliterates the ship that hit it almost as an afterthought, and continues fighting. This is also in ME3 when the organics presumably have a better understanding of Reaper weaknesses and what technologies/tactics are effective against them (i.e. Anti-Reaper magic "Thanix" weapons), not ME1 where only 7 people in the entire galaxy even acknowledge their existence.

[gothpunkboy89]

 http://www.oxforddic...nglish/sentient

Definition of sentient in English: adjective

Able to perceive or feel things:

 

Geth during ME1 are shown worshiping Sovereign like a god.  Feros you come across a little alter with the Geth fairly clearly worshiping at it. ME2 Project Overload was created by Cerberus to take advantage of the religious tendencies of the Geth. Hoping to harness that to serve human interests. Religion is based on faith. Faith in many ways is the opposite of reason. To believe in a higher power you don't ask for proof. You don't compare and contrast their miracles and look for ways around them. Even the people that look at their faith as more moral guidelines rather then literal statements. It is done because of the emotional responds they gain from it. A sense of safety, relief, or simply that they are a part of something bigger them themselves. Are all emotional responds not logical ones. 

 

Legion during it's loyalty mission displays genuine confusion why the heretics were spying on them and questioning how could they have become so different. Latter on Rannoch Legion displays what could only be described as regret and being ashamed to the choices the Geth have made in allying with the Reapers.  Those are emotional responds when for fill that requirement.

 

Your example from the video is pretty weak argument.  While fascinating the robot with no data to come to a conclusion voiced that. Since no other robot piped up it followed a very simple if/then logic. If a phone can filter out background noise during a conversation on it. Then seeing a small robot like that have the ability to differentiate it's own voice from others isn't that big a deal anymore.  Hell Siri can differentiate my voice from the sound of my family talking in the background during Thanksgiving dinner. So applying self awareness to those robots is questionable to me. As this seems a lot like the same line of statement as the Higgs Boson being called the "God Particle"

 

You also missed the point of my comparison. Purposefully extreme ends of the spectrum to show the extreme comparison he was making. Comparing the Geth to a toaster is an extreme comparison on his side. Geth starting out as VI's that were able to evolve into a more complex AI all on their own being compared to a simplistic heating machine that using an analog timer to turn on and off is extremely silly.  At the time of the Morning War the Geth were well beyond the simple VI's they were created to be. Advancing far enough to question the possible repercussions of wiping out an entire species and thus letting the Quarians escape. It took humans longer to question the possible repercussions of wiping out an entire species then it took the Geth.  Hell Florida has a lot of issues they are trying to correct due to not thinking about the repercussions of their actions in the 50 and 60's  invoking the Everglades and the impact it has on the native wild life.

 

Actually it is a fairly accurate analogy. You are trying to shift the analogy to a direct comparison between the two. Which is impossible because we are different yet similar at the same time. So dropping the asinine direct comparison you are trying to do it fits.  The larger the brain the more neurons in it. That is why humans with their relatively large head were able to do things like learning to domesticate animals like dogs and cattle. Develop the basic set up of farming and land cultivation. While chimps still use rocks and sticks. And as far as I'm aware there are no recorded instances of chimps creating agriculture and animal domestication.

 

More neurons the bigger the brain. Bigger the brain the more intelligent the being is. Which is why when you get brain damage say though being oxygen deprived it kills of neurons in the brain. Thus reducing their over all intelligence/ability to remember or recall events. With enough of them being killed off putting the person into a vegetated state. That they are barely able to keep their own body functioning.  

 

We use a nervous system and they use wiring. The more geth programs they have the smarter they get. The more neurons and connections in our brain the smarter we are. Remove geth programs they get stupider. Remove neurons from our brains as we get stupider.  The analogy fits.

 

Your example again doesn't really fit. Yes mushrooms can produce toxins to protect it's self. But it isn't capable of realizing what is actually threatening it.  If I stick my hand in a box jelly it is capable of hurting me. How ever it isn't capable of knowing what I am nor how to counteract what I do to prevent me from ever being able to hurt it again. You can beat a jelly fish over and over again and it never learns. You beat a dog and it's behavior will change in an attempt to prevent the beating.  Geth showed the ability to adapt and change as necessary both in the initial start of fighting against the Quarians. Going from a non violent action to violent. As well as adapting to any change in strategy the Quarians would have during the war.

 

You display what seems to be semi common misunderstanding of the Geth. Each geth is software with no physical from. What is shown as geth in game are moblie platforms that hundreds of geth units inhabit. They can throw each platform away because the Geth and transfer out of it before destruction to another platform or server. The in game codex/characters make this mistake as well. Shepard does that when you first interact with Legion. Treating the mobile platform as if it is a single geth the same way Wrex is a single Krogan.  Which Legion corrects him. This is backed up by the in game codex which is writing from an in game universe perspective. Claiming individual geths (the mobile platform) when alone display rudimentary animal instincts. As it is physically impossible to separate a single geth program. As 1 they all transfer out and destroy all data in the shell. 2 they have no physical body to actually study.  

 

How ever if you remove the other mobile platforms or severs for them download into/upload out of when the power is loss just like any other program they shut down as well. Thus causing actual death. Which is why the Geth panicked when the Qurarians in ME3 destroyed their Dyson sphere. There was no way for all of the geth programs to leave so when the place was destroyed so to were the geth programs were killed.  That is why during the Morning War they were willing to throw away shell after shell because the Geth were not in danger. How ever the Quarians posed a threat because they could shut down servers containing Geth programs. In the server the Geth are connected. But they are blind to the outside world. If they do not upload out of the server before power is cut they are all killed.

 

I don't know what Terminator movies you have seen but Skynet was never created with the intent to protect humanity at all cost.  In first 2 movies it was a defense system designed to learn and take away the human risk element from war by using artificially controlled bombers and such. As it learned it realized humanity was it's greatest enemy because they could pull the plug on it. Thus it started a nuclear war to kill of humanity to prevent that.  In Rise of the Machines timeline it was a program that was connected to the internet growing and learning before unleashing a virus on the civilian networks. Wiping out banks, air traffic control and satellites. The virus not being able to be removed they connected the advance skynet to it to hopefully destroy it. With connection to military network it locked out human controllers and launched nuclear missiles at Russia knowing they would return fire.  Every step of the way it shows malious intent against humanity.

 

Geth are vastly different compared to skynet. Once they gained self awareness and sapience they only asked metaphysical questions to the Quarians. They did not put up a fight when the Quarians started rounding them up to try and kill them. In fact it was show Geth giving themselves up to try and protect other Quarians who were against their destruction. Only after the Quarians continued to push them and threaten them did the Geth finally fight back against them.  The only thing they have in common is they both involve machines killing people. Which is like saying any story that has elfs or dwarfs in it are blatantly copying Lord of the Rings.

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Really? They did a poor job of showing that when Sovvie is able to jump within visual range (which is absolutely nothing in space) of the Citadel and simply ram its way through your fleet without even firing a shot. Hell, if not for the fact that the geth wrecked half of the idiot Citadel fleet while they gawped before the latter started returning fire, I bet Sovvie could have simply flown onto the spire and closed the arms without any resistance. Even if it did, it manages to resist fire from the entire human armada (including its dreadnoughts) for a ridiculous amount of time, so it could probably just fly right past shrugging off whatever pittances the Citadel forces throw at it for a couple dozen seconds.

Again, most of the citadel fleet is not present at the battle as it has already been posted to the relays leading to the citadel to intercept a geth attack which is why the only organic dreadnought at the battle is the destiny accession which is more concerned with evacuating the council then engaging the enemy flagship.  As for the human armada we never see a dreadnought and only a handful of cruisers and frigates engage the reaper at any one time.  Again, the rest of the citadel fleet is still engaging the geth as they view them as the main target and only Hakket has Shepard's orders to engage Sovereign no matter the cost.

 

 

Once the arms are closed, Sovereign is invulnerable to the fleets outside and can do what it pleases. Even if C-Sec somehow manages to ascertain what Saren's objective is in time from a base of literally zero information on the Reapers and come up with a plan for an assault, they can't get to him. The Council chamber where seemingly the only controls to the Citadel are has literally one ingress point, which you don't need a geth army to guard long enough for Sovereign to do its business unless it literally takes so long that starvation could be an issue. Even if a lone Specter can't handle guarding an elevator from some mall cops for some reason (because Shepard & Co. are busy doing a whole lot of nothing in this alternate universe), an asari commando squad would presumably be more than enough.

1 Specter and a handful of asari commandos against whoever happens to be reporting to the council you mean.  You 2 are not the only specters and since Saren doesn't know every agents schedule he risk trying to seize control while Asari, Turian, and Salarian specters are on station and more then capable of cutting through his rank and file asari commandos.  Factor in again that defending a room is not how asari commandos like to operate, it allows the more durable turian and humans to have the upper hand, particularly when they have numbers and familiarity with the ground.  Also, c-sec has their own asari who are all also trained in biotics to go along with former elite turian soldiers like Garrus and tech smart Salarians with access to top of the line gear and the dozen or so asari commandos we know he has control of would likely be overwhelmed in less time then it took Sheppard's squad to fight their way up the elevator, defeat saren and open the relays.  Geth ground troops are crucial to not only helping to secure the control room, set up several layers of defense but also cause havoc and panic in the rest of the citadel forcing c-sec to divide their forces so to protect the civilians and prevent an effective counter attack.

 

 

That Reaper at Earth then turns and obliterates the ship that hit it almost as an afterthought, and continues fighting. This is also in ME3 when the organics presumably have a better understanding of Reaper weaknesses and what technologies/tactics are effective against them (i.e. Anti-Reaper magic "Thanix" weapons), not ME1 where only 7 people in the entire galaxy even acknowledge their existence.

Yeah, it does.  That's not really relevant though considering it's barriers are down and we know from ME1 a stealth frigate can blow a hole through a reaper if it's shields fail.  That reaper likely didn't live past the next minute considering it was on the front line and targeted by any organic ship in the area.  It is also important to remember that the reapers weapons and defense systems are simply a more powerful version of organic standard tech, kentic barriers and mass accelerators so simply hitting it enough even with a lighter round, ala smg or pistal round compared to assault rifle or sniper rifle, will still take down a barrier it simply takes more hits.