I don't understand, who on Earth is like Nassana "kill anyone who threatens reputation?"
Anyway, if that mercenary knew who Nassana was, what she did, why she did it, he's basically cartoon mega evil, based on what players see in the game, it's kind of ambiguous.
Various warlords, crime syndicates, terrorist cells, etc.
No, it's not. Doing a job you were hired to do is not cartoon evil, especially when again millions of people in real life do it. Are they cartoon mega evil as well? Evil sure, but not cartoon mega evil.
Various warlords, crime syndicates, terrorist cells, etc.
No, it's not. Doing a job you were hired to do is not cartoon evil, especially when again millions of people in real life do it. Are they cartoon mega evil as well? Evil sure, but not cartoon mega evil.
Obviously "doing a job you were hired to do" is not inherently cartoon evil. That's not what I said.
The Salarian workers in the towers were hired to do a job, clean the tower, it turned out that tower had Nassana kill everything who disagrees with her in it. In a tangential sense, they were supporting Nassana in some capacity, but they very likely had no knowledge or intent to support such acts.
In contrast, that eclipse mercenary was like a higher up in charge of the Tower's defense, was very likely present and aware of the Salarian purge and is part of an organization that is known for and generally is indifferent to the causes of the people they support.
I already said I don't really know based on the game what is ultimately most sensible because it's pretty ambiguous, but it's a pretty shady situation.
What I'm saying is there isn't an invisible distinction between someone hired to do something for a terrible person who they know is a terrible and the person themselves.
There is between someone who is hired to do something for a terrible person, typically on the basis that they did not know or unaware of the nature of that evil etc etc.
For me, nothing beats the "you're working too hard" interrupt. It's perfect.
And I don't know why renegade interrupts had such a huge drop in quality in ME3. They must bring back that awesomeness!
I don't want every kind of Renegade action from ME2 to come back, but this one is golden. I also greatly enjoy setting the clan Weyrloc spokesperson on fire. I mean, why would I NOT do these things? XD
I don't want every kind of Renegade action from ME2 to come back, but this one is golden. I also greatly enjoy setting the clan Weyrloc spokesperson on fire. I mean, why would I NOT do these things? XD
Because being burned alive is one of the worst things that can happen to you and nobody deserves it.
Well, his boss is cartoon evil perhaps, but not the merc himself. He was just hired to do a job: serve as security. There's nothing cartoony about that.
If you take on a job that involves murder, you assume as much responsibility for those murders as the person who pays for the service. He's not oblivious or under duress. People willingly join those groups for the payday, regardless of the detriment it may serve to society at large. F*ck that guy. The last thing that guy gets to enjoy is a twosome with sweet lady Gravity and madam Pavement.
Most dictators throughout history, including several who are in power today.
We can find atrocities occuring in the real world that exceed anything depicted in Mass Effect.
Ok, so there are mean and terrible people that exist in reality as well as in a game?
I mean was I implying there weren't? I found a story two days ago about some doctor in Russia that punched a patient dead or something, that's pretty terrible, so.. I mean obviously... although without knowing who you are in fact I referring to I would hardly feel compelled to agree with your specific categorizations, and instead simply the generalized notion that yeah there are terrible people in the actual human world we live and breathe in currently..
As for the scale of evil historical vis a vis a Bioware game I'm not sure why that matters anyway, the simple fact is there are some fantastically insane and cruel characters in Bioware games, just like there have been in history sure, or just like there have been in other games, or media generally.
Well, his boss is cartoon evil perhaps, but not the merc himself. He was just hired to do a job: serve as security. There's nothing cartoony about that.
I don't see what was cartoony about Khalisah. She was just representing her viewer base when asking those questions and makes some good points, particularly in ME3. We have reporters who are much worse than her in real life.
For me Khalisah is basically an idiot. IMHO in ME2 she seems to be BioWare's response to that 100% BS attack job that FNC did on ME1 and her points were just as stupid in ME3 which basically boils down to "Who is going to save humanity, the Earth and the galaxy?" Which was already an old question before you even get to her.
Ada Wong was at least closer to the idea of a real investigative reporter someone who is willing to go unfriendly places and willing to ****** off crime lords, C-Sec, and the Council to get at the truth. Khalisah is nothing more than a standard right-wing conservative idiot pundit who trying to sell her BS as "news", who is also a major hypocrite who gives Shepard a hard time for just working with aliens in ME1 and yet she makes out with an asari in ME2: Lair of the Shadow Broker.
There needs to be a difference in 'Just bein' a dick' and 'Total ****** psychopath' renegade options.
Sometimes people just need a smart ass remark, not a bullet to the face. Jesus Christ, Shepard.
I like to think of sarcastic/aggro Hawke as sort of a rough template of the type of Renegade I'd like to roll. Tossing the knife into the jugular of the slaver, who damn well deserved to die, is what I would consider to be a hell of a renegade interrupt.
If you take on a job that involves murder, you assume as much responsibility for those murders as the person who pays for the service. He's not oblivious or under duress. People willingly join those groups for the payday, regardless of the detriment it may serve to society at large. F*ck that guy. The last thing that guy gets to enjoy is a twosome with sweet lady Gravity and madam Pavement.
I never said he wasn't. I said he was evil but he wasn't cartoon mega evil.
For me Khalisah is basically an idiot. IMHO in ME2 she seems to be BioWare's response to that 100% BS attack job that FNC did on ME1 and her points were just as stupid in ME3 which basically boils down to "Who is going to save humanity, the Earth and the galaxy?" Which was already an old question before you even get to her.
Ada Wong was at least closer to the idea of a real investigative reporter someone who is willing to go unfriendly places and willing to ****** off crime lords, C-Sec, and the Council to get at the truth. Khalisah is nothing more than a standard right-wing conservative idiot pundit who trying to sell her BS as "news", who is also a major hypocrite who gives Shepard a hard time for just working with aliens in ME1 and yet she makes out with an asari in ME2: Lair of the Shadow Broker.
You mean Emily Wong?
I agree. Emily Wong overall is a much better reporter.
To be honest, Emily Wong doesn't really stick in my memory much, because for some reason, the writers decided to totally exclude her from even ME2 even though she can send a message to Shepard, and her involvement in ME1 is light and nothing special. The biggest reason I miss her character so much is because we got saddled with a crappy celeb insert. If they just got someone better than PSP Licker, then I wouldn't really mind her being left to the wayside (though the twitter death is still shite).
I never said he wasn't. I said he was evil but he wasn't cartoon mega evil.
You mean Emily Wong?
I agree. Emily Wong overall is a much better reporter.
You know Hanako I think we're getting confused here, your previous post said "No, it's not. Doing a job you were hired to do is not cartoon evil, especially when again millions of people in real life do it. Are they cartoon mega evil as well? Evil sure, but not cartoon mega evil."
Because that statement is actually more intense than mine, it's not clear what we're talking about so it sounds like you are saying "Doing a job you are hired to do is evil"
Which is of course I'm sure not what you want to say
I think you mean, millions of people do jobs for people who are like warlords or whatever... I don't know maybe you want to edit that one? Only because I think maybe you assumed more about me knowing what we were talking about and others might get confused as well.
Well frankly I think that would put them in the same bad category, depending on the knowledge, once again, the quantity of followers doesn't change the evil quality of that dynamic...
I never said he wasn't. I said he was evil but he wasn't cartoon mega evil.
Is there really a meaningful distinction? The guy isn't a cackling madman that grasps his hands and marvels at all the terror he's wrought, but he's still a scumbag whose death is more likely to make the galaxy a marginally better place.
You know Hanako I think we're getting confused here, your previous post said "No, it's not. Doing a job you were hired to do is not cartoon evil, especially when again millions of people in real life do it. Are they cartoon mega evil as well? Evil sure, but not cartoon mega evil."
Because that statement is actually more intense than mine, it's not clear what we're talking about so it sounds like you are saying "Doing a job you are hired to do is evil"
Which is of course I'm sure not what you want to say
I'm not confused at all. I'm not saying doing the job you were hired to do makes you evil, since that means practically the entire workforce is. But when you are hired to do a job that is evil in nature, you are evil.
The only exception would be if it is a case like "If you don't do it, your family dies", but then it is more them doing the job to help their family rather than because they were hired to.
Is there really a meaningful distinction? The guy isn't a cackling madman that grasps his hands and marvels at all the terror he's wrought, but he's still a scumbag whose death is more likely to make the galaxy a marginally better place.
Yes, there is a difference between evil and cartoon mega evil. Regular evil can be for a variety of reasons, whereas cartoon mega evil is just evil for evil's sake.
I'm not confused at all. I'm not saying doing the job you were hired to do makes you evil, since that means practically the entire workforce is. But when you are hired to do a job that is evil in nature, you are evil.
The only exception would be if it is a case like "If you don't do it, your family dies", but then it is more them doing the job to help their family rather than because they were hired to.
Yes, there is a difference between evil and cartoon mega evil. Regular evil can be for a variety of reasons, whereas cartoon mega evil is just evil for evil's sake.
Right well it was just me then
Anyway, as you say, it depends on circumstances, for example, someone coerced into doing it.
Yes, there is a difference between evil and cartoon mega evil. Regular evil can be for a variety of reasons, whereas cartoon mega evil is just evil for evil's sake.
There are tiny things that bug me about that mercenary though, like "Even if I did know I wouldn't tell you" "I've got nothing more to say to you" he seemed pretty pro-Eclipse/pro-current mission which is generally a kind of ambiguous organization and which was pretty much an evil mission.
If he had said more what he said in that OP millionaire video "Look! I don't know anything I'm just-" well then that's more regular evil (like accidental evil) than mega evil.
To be honest, Emily Wong doesn't really stick in my memory much, because for some reason, the writers decided to totally exclude her from even ME2 even though she can send a message to Shepard, and her involvement in ME1 is light and nothing special. The biggest reason I miss her character so much is because we got saddled with a crappy celeb insert. If they just got someone better than PSP Licker, then I wouldn't really mind her being left to the wayside (though the twitter death is still shite).
That's kind of what I mean, Bioware often tends to sort of clearly telegraph "this person is bad" versus "this person is good"
Emily Wong is pretty clearly made out to be this super positive investigative force, driven to the truth of the matter or whatever. Whereas the other one was pretty clearly made out to be vengeance driven, paint her own picture of events, etc.
I think another point I made sort of secondarily was the scale tends to be very extreme.
Ok, so there are mean and terrible people that exist in reality as well as in a game?
I mean was I implying there weren't? I found a story two days ago about some doctor in Russia that punched a patient dead or something, that's pretty terrible, so.. I mean obviously... although without knowing who you are in fact I referring to I would hardly feel compelled to agree with your specific categorizations, and instead simply the generalized notion that yeah there are terrible people in the actual human world we live and breathe in currently..
As for the scale of evil historical vis a vis a Bioware game I'm not sure why that matters anyway, the simple fact is there are some fantastically insane and cruel characters in Bioware games, just like there have been in history sure, or just like there have been in other games, or media generally.
I was referring to people like Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan, Josep Stalin, and Mao Tse-Tung. People who ordered the torture and/or death of millions either for the opposing their political regime, or for being a particular color/ethnicity, or just because the dictator in question felt like it.
As for whether it matters, I'm not particularly inclined to debate. This is just an answer to your question.
This so much. I generally have a very selective interest-span and badass ******* renegade in ME1 and ME2 saved the moments of self-indulgent writing and things I didn't care about from being bad. Instead I just got a kick out of them and I don't give a crud if certain stuck-up forum-critics say "it doesn't make sense to be a jerk".
ME1 and ME2 still have the best dialogue choices of any game I have played (including Witcher 3, which is not too impressive in that regard IMHO). A: There's a lot of them and B: They let you define Shepard with quite distinct characterization and it doesn't matter that you can make him/her bipolar by constantly alternating between the extremes. Whenever the dialogue decides to autopilot because you selected an evil choice earlier on like in DA2 or ME3, the sense of consequence is fine, but the sense of player-agency is less than if you just let me respond however I wanted.
For example, in ME3 which is infamous for its skimping of ME1 and ME2's dialogue system by removing neutral options and having like 70% more autodialogue there's a really cool moment in the Rannoch arc if you're xenophobic towards synthetics. You can tell Legion (perhaps Legion VI only but I don't remember) that you can't trust him early on, and then later in the Geth Consensus mission (I think) Shepard at some point takes his point further by reiterating his opinion and making a really cool gesture while looking evil, pointing at Legion while he says it. I LOL'ed so hard when that happened on what was probably my 6th playthrough but anyway, it would've been cooler if it had been a dialogue choice just for the sake of roleplaying and Bipolar Shep is not unrealistic, bros.
This so much. I generally have a very selective interest-span and badass ******* renegade in ME1 and ME2 saved the moments of self-indulgent writing and things I didn't care about from being bad. Instead I just got a kick out of them and I don't give a crud if certain stuck-up forum-critics say "it doesn't make sense to be a jerk".
ME1 and ME2 still have the best dialogue choices of any game I have played (including Witcher 3, which is not too impressive in that regard IMHO). A: There's a lot of them and B: They let you define Shepard with quite distinct characterization and it doesn't matter that you can make him/her bipolar by constantly alternating between the extremes. Whenever the dialogue decides to autopilot because you selected an evil choice earlier on like in DA2 or ME3, the sense of consequence is fine, but the sense of player-agency is less than if you just let me respond however I wanted.
For example, in ME3 which is infamous for its skimping of ME1 and ME2's dialogue system by removing neutral options and having like 70% more autodialogue there's a really cool moment in the Rannoch arc if you're xenophobic towards synthetics. You can tell Legion (perhaps Legion VI only but I don't remember) that you can't trust him early on, and then later in the Geth Consensus mission (I think) Shepard at some point takes his point further by reiterating his opinion and making a really cool gesture while looking evil, pointing at Legion while he says it. I LOL'ed so hard when that happened on what was probably my 6th playthrough but anyway, it would've been cooler if it had been a dialogue choice just for the sake of roleplaying and Bipolar Shep is not unrealistic, bros.
I agree with the inclusion of badass renegade actions, but I'd like some more middle-ground/neutral actions too. ME3 had only two dialogue options in most cases which was pretty disappointing. You had the choice to make your character into either a goody-two-shoes or a psycho ***hole. These's a pretty big difference between letting an enemy go scot-free or killing him in the most horrible way possible.
Having the option to be an epic ass is fun, but we need more options in general.
meh...throughout the entire trilogy, renegade was always more of villain rather than an anti-hero. Often times it was quite extreme. I'd prefer they do it right this time. I.e. making renegade choices more akin to an anti-hero. We're not the villains of the story.
All that being said, the renegade interrupt dealing with the merc, was enjoyable.
Renegade a villain? Renegade's not the one ignoring orders from Admiral Hackett and intentionally genociding an entire species down to the last man woman and child for the sake of some equipment (argue your irrelevant opinions on synthetic sentience all you wish, that's what they are considered by all systems of law in the ME universe), and broken equipment that history has shown is highly prone to indiscriminate anti-organic violence, and finally not as useful to the war effort to boot (per war asset calculations). Renegade is also not the one unleashing a horde of hyperviolent battletoads upon the billions of honest citizens of the rest of the galaxy, who are simply mad that the other species corrected a mistake of evolution and gave them a stable birthrate, which is also less useful to the war effort than the alternative of getting both salarian and krogan aid.
Paragon should have been arrested and thrown in a mental institution or been summarily executed for both of those actions were the games in any way realistic, but instead your crew in typical videogame fashion just acts a little butthurt at you then forgets that you became space Hitler because a computer program told you to, or have doomed potentially millions to billions of people to be eaten by battletoads. "Evil" as a definition is of course subjective, but the way I would define it is in term of unnecessary suffering, and the Paragon is capable of causing far more unnecessary suffering than the Renegade in terms of utilitarian calculations.
Are we talking dialogue or choices - by which I mean the story options. I think the small scale stuff is generally good, rarely totally psychotic. But the choices are often silly. Like letting the Council die. The neutral option is sane and pragmatic. The renegade explanation is just racist. Otherwise, you only have the option to massacre the colonists, or executing the rachni, are short-sighted and not pragmatic in the least. They're just "EXTREME".
The Renegade explanation is indeed racist, but no more racist than the Council's rule itself. The entire body is built upon institutionalized racism wherein 3 species rule over a dozen or so other "lesser species" who have no real power, and the only way to gain representation on said Council is to frighten them with your military prowess. Don't take my word for it that it is a racist oligarchy, though, they were nice enough to program their own infodrone to tell you themselves.
That Renegade chooses to use their own methods against them is in no way "psychotic", it is fighting fire with fire.
Given that your only other option in relation to the Rachni is to let the queen walk with no methods of verifying what she will do later, and with only the history of the Rachni War wherein others like her served as baby factories to turn out hordes of rachni trying to genocide all the other species for 300 years to make an inference from, I'd say that it's pretty pragmatic. Of course, this being a Bioware game, hopeless optimist hero fantasy prevails instead of you having to reenact Starship Troopers later as history suggests would happen. Retrospectively it is of course a bad decision, but you've no way of knowing that at the time, so it is the queen's word (who could very well be lying) against the judgment of history.
The decision with the Feros colonists was a failure of narrative/gameplay seperation. Saving them by incapacitating them with the gas grenades is actually even easier than shooting them. Otherwise, I fail to see how killing 15 indoctrinated individuals entirely in justified self defense constitutes a "massacre". They are shooting at you, and in addition to your own life and those of your squad, a lot more lives than a mere 15 depend on you destroying the creature which controls them as well as obtaining the information to stop Sovereign and his geth allies.
I don't understand, who on Earth is like Nassana "kill anyone who threatens reputation?"
Anyway, if that mercenary knew who Nassana was, what she did, why she did it, he's basically cartoon mega evil, based on what players see in the game, it's kind of ambiguous. Considering Nassana ordered all the Salarians killed right before you get there, it's hard to say that mercenary doesn't know something is kind of rotten in this situation.
You must have been wrapped up in cotton wool most of your life,people on this planet kill other people for the most inane reasons and money is one of the biggest reasons,you honestly think if a crime boss tells his/her men to kill everyone in a location,that they won't do it.
Look at the Mexico drug wars for a real life example of mass murders committed by one of your "cartoon mega evil" tropes.
For me, nothing beats the "you're working too hard" interrupt. It's perfect.
I like that one. Another one, that didn't require an interrupt, was making the batarian drink his own poison
And I don't know why renegade interrupts had such a huge drop in quality in ME3. They must bring back that awesomeness!
I don't either. There were several spots in the game that needed a renegade interrupt and a couple that needed a mixture of violence and harsh language
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