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Bring back the humorous Renegade of Mass Effect 2


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#51
Seraphim24

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You must have been wrapped up in cotton wool most of your life,people on this planet kill other people for the most inane reasons and money is one of the biggest reasons,you honestly think if a crime boss tells his/her men to kill everyone in a location,that they won't do it.

Look at the Mexico drug wars for a real life example of mass murders committed by one of your "cartoon mega evil" tropes.

 

I was referring to people like Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan, Josep Stalin, and Mao Tse-Tung. People who ordered the torture and/or death of millions either for the opposing their political regime, or for being a particular color/ethnicity, or just because the dictator in question felt like it.

As for whether it matters, I'm not particularly inclined to debate. This is just an answer to your question.

 

Well my (apparently mis) understanding is me and Hanako were discussing Earth as in Mass Effect Earth not Earth Earth, when Hanako said "Millions on earth" I immediately thought of the intro of ME3 and I was like well millions on earth are under attack by Reapers it's not really a stable situation.. what could they be referring to?

 

Anyway as to IRL things I'm just going to go away from those, I think they don't like that stuff on these forums at any rate.



#52
ArabianIGoggles

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Well, his boss is cartoon evil perhaps, but not the merc himself. He was just hired to do a job: serve as security. There's nothing cartoony about that. 

 

I don't see what was cartoony about Khalisah. She was just representing her viewer base when asking those questions and makes some good points, particularly in ME3. We have reporters who are much worse than her in real life.

Nancy Grace comes to mind...


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#53
In Exile

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The Renegade explanation is indeed racist, but no more racist than the Council's rule itself. The entire body is built upon institutionalized racism wherein 3 species rule over a dozen or so other "lesser species" who have no real power, and the only way to gain representation on said Council is to frighten them with your military prowess. Don't take my word for it that it is a racist oligarchy, though, they were nice enough to program their own infodrone to tell you themselves.

 

I'm not sure why you think this is a defence. The Council is absolutely a racist oligarchy enforced by the Asari, Turians and Salarians. How that makes an equally but separately racist motivation somehow... not bad (?) escapes me. 

 

 

Given that your only other option in relation to the Rachni is to let the queen walk with no methods of verifying what she will do later, and with only the history of the Rachni War wherein others like her served as baby factories to turn out hordes of rachni trying to genocide all the other species for 300 years to make an inference from, I'd say that it's pretty pragmatic. Of course, this being a Bioware game, hopeless optimist hero fantasy prevails instead of you having to reenact Starship Troopers later as history suggests would happen. Retrospectively it is of course a bad decision, but you've no way of knowing that at the time, so it is the queen's word (who could very well be lying) against the judgment of history.

 

But that's what makes the choice dumb. I'd say it's incredibly stupid that the game simply forces you to choose between 1) letting her go and 2) not letting her go. She's clearly trapped there. No means to escape. Just calling for back-up and then waiting her out is super simple. You've got a whole spaceship! Just get another squad, BOOM problem solved. 

It has nothing to do with optimism. Exterminating the rachni is dumb, when there's a tremendous benefit toward studying it. 

 

 

The Renegade explanation is indeed racist, but no more racist than the Council's rule itself. The entire body is built upon institutionalized racism wherein 3 species rule over a dozen or so other "lesser species" who have no real power, and the only way to gain representation on said Council is to frighten them with your military prowess. Don't take my word for it that it is a racist oligarchy, though, they were nice enough to program their own infodrone to tell you themselves.

 

I'm not sure why you think this is a defence. The Council is absolutely a racist oligarchy enforced by the Asari, Turians and Salarians. How that makes an equally but separately racist motivation somehow... not bad (?) escapes me. 

 

 

The decision with the Feros colonists was a failure of narrative/gameplay seperation. Saving them by incapacitating them with the gas grenades is actually even easier than shooting them. Otherwise, I fail to see how killing 15 indoctrinated individuals entirely in justified self defense constitutes a "massacre". They are shooting at you, and in addition to your own life and those of your squad, a lot more lives than a mere 15 depend on you destroying the creature which controls them as well as obtaining the information to stop Sovereign and his geth allies.

 

It's "15" people in the same way that Skyrim's 10 house not-even-IRL-villages are "towns". It's a scale thing. But quite apart from that, if they are infected with some weird alien mind control parasite, again, keeping them alive to study them is way, way more valuable them killing them dead. 

 

As to why it's a massacre, we're back to point mind control. 

 

And if we start not segregating gameplay, then the entire series is stupid. No game will turn on a 3-person fire team just going around fighting offensively superior numbers. 



#54
themikefest

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But the choices are often silly. Like letting the Council die.

Nothing silly about letting the council die.

When Sovereign and geth attacked the citadel fleet, what does the Commander of the Ascension do? She says abandon the Citadel. Evacuate the council. I guess she means for the fleet to abandon the Citadel to draw the opposing attackers away from the Citadel. Fine. To evacuate the council is not needed. They're not in any immediate danger. If anything have security get them to a safe area, like an underground bunker until the danger has passed. Putting them on a shuttle to get to the Ascension puts them in danger of being attacked and destroyed.

The next time the Ascension is shown, its shown flying away from the Citadel. I guess the council is onboard at that time. Why didn't the Commander leave the battle getting the council to safety? The other thing is that the ship is being attacked by geth ships, but isn't firing back. Why is that? I know if my ship is being fired on, I would fire back. For a ship that suppose to be very powerful, it failed big time.

The other thing is Hackett. He can see the battle and determine if its worthy to save the ship or not. Shepard has no idea what is happening.


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#55
KaiserShep

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To evacuate the council is not needed. They're not in any immediate danger. If anything have security get them to a safe area, like an underground bunker until the danger has passed. Putting them on a shuttle to get to the Ascension puts them in danger of being attacked and destroyed.

 

 

In such a situation aboard a space station, there is no safe area. If the station is overrun and the Citadel is no longer under control of C-Sec, one could reasonably expect imminent failure of all life support. For all they know, the geth could just as well mean to eradicate the entire station, in which case their bunker would be their tomb. Putting them on a shuttle to transport them to the Destiny Ascension does put them in danger, but it would be fair of them to assume that leaving them on the station is considerably worse. 



#56
SolNebula

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:) I have to admit being evil with your enemies is quite enjoyable I was never a full Paragon nor Renegade.....I just wanted to be nice with my squadmates and ruthless with my enemies. Paragade perhaps? Sure I don't mind being a jerk it's quite fun.

I also loved the high Renegade interrupts during Thane loyalty mission. Very professional.



#57
themikefest

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In such a situation aboard a space station, there is no safe area. If the station is overrun and the Citadel is no longer under control of C-Sec, one could reasonably expect imminent failure of all life support. For all they know, the geth could just as well mean to eradicate the entire station, in which case their bunker would be their tomb. Putting them on a shuttle to transport them to the Destiny Ascension does put them in danger, but it would be fair of them to assume that leaving them on the station is considerably worse. 

There is no safe area? Where was the council when the crucible fired? Wasn't there a tweet from a Bioware emplyee saying that all named characters survive. If so, where were these characters located?



#58
tomkaa988

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had to log in for this  :lol:

 

This!! This thread. It's everything.

ME2 conquered my heart with it's renegade style. I absolutely loved it. Once you go renegade you can't go back B) . Every next playthrough I picked only red, that wasnt even in question. I simply couldn't resist — it was so well implemented!! The difference from the blue option was often so drastic and so much more rewarding and satisfying, it wasn't just a paraphrase of the paragon option — twas a completely different course of action with follow-up reactions. That feature of the game was awesome. I really missed being a rude ass violent mofo in me3 and in da:i. Now that I think about it that was the only thing that made me keep replaying ME2 over and over again just cos I couldn't get enough. I can't think of any game that offers an option of being a badass "couldnt-care-less" protagonist without making them seem like bloodthirsty maniacs and at the same time making the experience so awesome.  :wub:

Renegade in ME2 felt liberating, it was a lot of fun, it was hilarious and finally, felt like a real choice because it was so different from the blue. (as far of a choice as players can get in a video game). there wasnt much backtalk so it felt like you were a really intimidating thug — pure awesomeness.

 

this is where it all started - I fell in love with this video


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#59
Mechler

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how about a third personality for the funny stuff (Jester or something similar) and make the renegade a villain?



#60
Ahglock

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how about a third personality for the funny stuff (Jester or something similar) and make the renegade a villain?


They need a 3rd or maybe 4th option. And yes funny or sarcastic but not really mean would be a nice option.
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#61
Deebo305

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@tomkaa988

I find it pretty amazing it took 3 pages before an actual funny renegade compilation vid got posted

#62
NKnight7

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I almost always convince him to leave, but yes that is a funny option. I also love the renegade option during Kasumi's Loyalty Mission when you can destroy the art piece while Hock is talking.



#63
NM_Che56

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That'd be nice. I'd appreciate a more Han Solo or Star Lord kind of renegade as opposed to "Choir boy vs Outright Jerk".



#64
PlatonicWaffles

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Please do. 3's was just too far most of the time.



#65
Deebo305

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Please do. 3's was just too far most of the time.


Still not a fan of letting Samara kill herself then killing her daughter directly after. I understand why it was done but still no matter how Renegade I play I always go for the Paragon interrupt
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#66
Quarian Master Race

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I'm not sure why you think this is a defence. The Council is absolutely a racist oligarchy enforced by the Asari, Turians and Salarians. How that makes an equally but separately racist motivation somehow... not bad (?) escapes me. 

It's at worst morally neutral if you intend for humanity to dominate the other species as the Council already does, and if you intended to use the human advantage to institute a more pluralistic and accountable form of government (even if you give humans an inbuilt advantage like veto power or disproportionately large representation), it is actually better. I don't see anything inherently wrong with using political violence as a means to an end against a repressive system, especially if there is a high chance that destroying the old system and removing the old racist tyrants from power is the only way forward (and given that the Council has been in power for more than two millenia, that is a reasonable conclusion). As it isn't actually making things worse, I can't see it as a bad thing just because it isn't the Nirvana solution, especially considering the ultimate consequences are exactly the same as the neutral option. At least the Renegade option expresses the intent to deliberately try to remove the Council (the only way to do so), rather than the neutral which hides behind a tactical assessment (a flawed one at that considering more people die for the same ultimate result).

I take far more umbrage with the Paragon option. It gives its tacit approval of the extremely racist system already in place, but it is ultimately splitting hairs. Both options are certainly racist, no doubt. I see no need to single out one or another.

 

But that's what makes the choice dumb. I'd say it's incredibly stupid that the game simply forces you to choose between 1) letting her go and 2) not letting her go. She's clearly trapped there. No means to escape. Just calling for back-up and then waiting her out is super simple. You've got a whole spaceship! Just get another squad, BOOM problem solved. 

It has nothing to do with optimism. Exterminating the rachni is dumb, when there's a tremendous benefit toward studying it.

So then why criticize only the Renegade decision but not the Paragon one? It is the far less stupidly risky of the two given the rachni history of inexplicable, genocidal violence.

Apparently it wasn't an option with the whole "race against time" nonsense. Why you are allowed to dither around driving the Mako on countless identical planets and slaughtering a billion irrelevant mercs in prefabs while the Reapers and Geth get closer to enacting their planned organic genocide is the better question, but there it is. No point in criticizing the Renegade for making do with what they have.

What benefit? The rachni aren't a galactic threat anymore, so there is no need to find weaknesses unless you plan on deliberately unleashing them again. Do you intend to use them as a weapon? In addition to the ethical problems with that, look how well it worked for Binary Helix. Do you have some moral imperative towards "diversity" (a galaxy where the rachni succeed in their previous goal of wiping out all other advanced species this time wouldn't be very diverse, but whatever). Why do you need to study her for that?

Both decisions are non optimal IMO (I'd have prefered to keep her locked up until someone more qualified could decide whether the rachni are still a threat and what to do with them), but of the two the Renegade one is actually more sensible with the information you have, Wrex's hypocritical shitbird reasoning and Shep's comically unnecessary sadism ("STAY DEAD THIS TIME") aside. We're talking the life of a single sentient vs potentially billions.

 

It's "15" people in the same way that Skyrim's 10 house not-even-IRL-villages are "towns". It's a scale thing. But quite apart from that, if they are infected with some weird alien mind control parasite, again, keeping them alive to study them is way, way more valuable them killing them dead. 

 

As to why it's a massacre, we're back to point mind control. 

 

And if we start not segregating gameplay, then the entire series is stupid. No game will turn on a 3-person fire team just going around fighting offensively superior numbers. 

I was under the impression that the small outpost we dock at was just that (think Fai Dan explains it), and that the majority of the colony's population lives around the ExoGeni headquarters. Whether the 15 colonists are supposed to represent 300 (the total population of the entire colony according to Feros description) is ultimately still not very relevant considering the importance of the mission and the billions of lives that depend upon its success. This would also add another point to the argument for simply killing them, being that you can't reasonably be expected to incapacitate and restrain 100 colonists per squad member within a reasonable timeframe.

What value is to be gained, and who says we can't study them if they're dead? We're going to kill the violent mind controlling space magic plant monster anyway, so even if they survive whatever links them to it will be severed. Plenty of information can usually still be gleaned from autopsies, provided they happen within a reasonable timeframe after death.

Massacres generally involve killing people who can't or won't fight back. The colonists are very much shooting at and attempting to kill us. That's called self defense. It's ultimately not much different than gunning down a Reaper husk. 

The gameplay has an explanation for that, though. Space Jesus and his disciples are frequently described as inhumanly competent (or everyone else is inhumanly incompetent). It's a stupid one, but it is provided, as Shep and other squad characters make reference to literally killing thousands of enemies as the player does in game. That the game is illogical by realistic standards of infantry tactics (where you don't have plot armored ubermensch) is not an example of a failure of gameplay/narrative seperation. By contrast taking out the colonists with non fatal means is supposed to or implied to be more difficult or time consuming according to dialogue, yet in Min/Max terms it isn't. 



#67
MrFob

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I'm all for the corny one-liner action movie interrupts from ME2 again. In fact, I do hope we'll get the option of playing a bit more of a light hearted PC if we want to (or at least have one as squad mate). We are playing as an explorer, right? I am thinking along the likes of Nathan Drake as an example.

 

As for the window scene, I actually prefer not using that particular interrupt because I prefer Shep's renegade line you get when you don't defenestrate the merc:

"Do you think you'll hear the sound you'll make when you hit the ground before you die?" :devil:



#68
Ahglock

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I'm all for the corny one-liner action movie interrupts from ME2 again. In fact, I do hope we'll get the option of playing a bit more of a light hearted PC if we want to (or at least have one as squad mate). We are playing as an explorer, right? I am thinking along the likes of Nathan Drake as an example.

 

As for the window scene, I actually prefer not using that particular interrupt because I prefer Shep's renegade line you get when you don't defenestrate the merc:

"Do you think you'll hear the sound you'll make when you hit the ground before you die?" :devil:

 

The first time I saw that was in a recent thread, I always pushed him out.  Still I think, how about good bye! has more zing.  Its commando worthy.  and that is the Citizen Kane of my generation!  :)



#69
themikefest

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I did like some of the renegade in ME2.

 

The scene that can lead to Shepard to pushing the merc out the window wasn't bad. I've only done that a couple of times, the rest I use the dialogue. My favorite is what Shepard says to the Batarian when telling him to drink his own poison. One of the funniest is Shepard being able to shoot the hostage during Thane's loyalty mission. Excellent.

 

It was ME3 that was lacking in the renegade area especially renegade interrupts. There were a couple of times that a renegade interrupt would work especially if that interrupt was mixed with violence and harsh language.

 

I like to see more renegade in the next game with a lot more interrupts added as well.



#70
MrFob

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My favorite is still the one at the beginning of Miranda's loyalty mission. This face is just priceless:
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#71
Giantdeathrobot

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Yeah, I'd rather Renegade be a character that takes bold and sometimes hilarious actions in the heat of the moment. Rather than ME1 Renegade which was a racist and ME3 Renegade that sometimes acts like a total scumbag (the Samara incident coming to mind).



#72
Quarian Master Race

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Yeah, I'd rather Renegade be a character that takes bold and sometimes hilarious actions in the heat of the moment. Rather than ME1 Renegade which was a racist and ME3 Renegade that sometimes acts like a total scumbag (the Samara incident coming to mind).

Personally, I hated the "done for laughs shitbird wanabe badass action hero that pushes random people out of windows for no reason" from ME2 even more than the Humanity #1 racist shill from ME1. ME3 actually had it most right IMO. Most Renegade actions have an actual point rather than pushing a random dude out of a window in order to make a cheesy one liner, or goading Jack into shooting a mentally insane person "for the evulz". The primary issue with ME3 is that there's simply not enough opportunities to criticize certain selfish and dishonest actors (Wrex and Legion in particular). An entire moral alignment shouldn't be designed as a joke alternative to the writer's preferred narrative, and I felt ME3 was better than 2 or 1 in that regard.

Samara/Falere incident is simply following the orders Asari High Command gave you to purge the facility. Representative of the Asari government Samara offed herself because of some retarded system of morality/justice she follows which isn't really your fault, leaving the authority of the decision to you. Falere poses a huge risk of capture and transformation into an extremely dangerous Reaper killing machine if left alive, even if she has no intention of going on a killing spree herself. I don't do it because Samara is useful, but I can easily see the reasoning behind it if she's already offed herself (given that it's easy to miss the interrupt). It's hardly scumbag, given that we're not allowed the reasonable option to take Falere prisoner, even though it seemingly wouldn't be that difficult to just put her in the Normandy brig and drop her off to C-Sec next time we're on the Citadel or something, and letting her go is a stupid risk.



#73
Monster A-Go Go

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It was ME3 that was lacking in the renegade area especially renegade interrupts. There were a couple of times that a renegade interrupt would work especially if that interrupt was mixed with violence and harsh language.

 

Nevertheless, cup checking Admiral Gerrel after the Geth Dreadnought is never not satisfying.

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#74
txgoldrush

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Why do many people here want to make the game worse?

 

Renegade in ME2 was TERRIBLE. Shepard acts so out of character and goes out of his way to do these actions. It was the "rule of cool" instead of character consistency.

 

In fact ME3 did it far better than the first two games in that Renegade was practical but at times heartbreaking, and for the most part, made realistic and consistent to a paragon who may want to choose some Renegade options. And who needs the neutral option when the dialogue itself for the two choices are dialed down towards neutral. ME3 Shepard is FAR from bipolar.

 

What happens when a Paragon wants to make a Renegade decision in ME2, he leaves character.

 

Seriously, ME3 Shepard is better...he has more of a consistent character than the first two games, which was stuck in uncanny valley. ME3 Shepard is more like your Adam Jansens, your Geralts, your Max Caulfields....and its those kinds of characters that a dialogue wheel is needed. ME2's Shepard is not quite Fallout 4 bad, but its bad.



#75
txgoldrush

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Which works because a Paragon could punch Gerrel.

 

Lets explain how it works, a Renegade action to blow up Gerrel and than a Paragon interrupt for Xen. Shepard can do BOTH, and STAY IN CHARACTER. He can do anything in that scene and stay in character. That's why ME3 Shepard is better written than the first two games.