161 réponses à ce sujet

[BSpud]

Gaspasser

 

 Are you, like, 4 years old?
 

[Deebo305]

Threads like this always make me laugh because I'm one of the few guys who actively chose to keep the Inquisition and kill Solas over redeeming him

Its like when I uploaded Iron Bulls betrayal to Youtube and saw the comments section flooded with people talking about going back to change their decision in his loyalty mission

Your given reasonable choices but naturally there always gonna be aomeone who wants the story to compensate for EVERY possible choice even game ending ones lol

[Dai Grepher]

It was certainly a farce, the council was nothing less than a kangaroo court, but that doesn't mean it can be ignored when it has the authority of two sovereign militant nations behind it. Politics.
When Orlais took Ferelden, the Fereldens drove them out. If the marcher states or Orzammar started seizing Ferelden land, they would do the same. The Inquisition has seized lands in Ferelden and failed to relinquish them once the crisis had passed. As far as Ferelden is concerned, the Inquisition has outlived its usefulness and has started thwarting Ferelden sovereignty.

And frankly they seem to have reverted to their usual suspicion of Orlais. My impression is that they fear the Inquisition will yield to Orlais' "guidance" (Read: Control) and become another arm of the empire. Ferelden alone cutting funding wouldn't be enough, it could just drive the Inquisition to the Orlesians for support.
It's land and territory with associated incomes, with the exception of the Western Approach they all have value and neither nation likes seeing them controlled by an independent military force with no fealty owed to the crown. I agree though, there should have been some way to negotiate a settlement on this issue.
The Wardens in Weisshaupt denouncing her after the fact would have been far more compelling if virtually all the Grey Wardens in Ferelden had not followed her and continued to call themselves Wardens, then continued to use the Warden fortress and resources as their base of operations in deposing a reigning monarch. Political neutrality is a key promise in the Grey Warden's relationship with the kingdoms and it was violated, trust was lost so the order was banished.

Actually Arland executed many Couslands for their support of the rebellion and completely dispossessed the Drydens of their lands and titles, they hardly went unpunished.
Most of those political connections would vanish if Orlais and Ferelden really started to throw their weight around. They would impose penalties on nobles and merchants that funded the Inquisition, Orzammar might not change its stance but they won't stick their neck out for the Inquisition either. Remember that most of those nobles pledged support either in hopes of furthering their own advancement and/or ending the current crisis. They'll flee like rats from a sinking ship now that the crisis has ended and association with the Inquisition has become a hindrance rather than a boon. Without those resources, the Inquisition won't be able to maintain its army or outposts on donations alone.

Merging with the Chantry is coupled with a downsizing of forces, by doing so they assuage fears of them acting as a rogue agent and they become less of a threat. They would be allowed to maintain many of their political alliances and noble connections, they wouldn't lose their patronage and would still have influence the Orlesians could potentially use.

That's something they should have explored, I agree.

 

But neither of those nations have authority over the Inquisition. The only influence they have would be martial, and they can't muster enough military force to take on the Inquisition. No way. Unless the Inquisition was minimalist, like I posted above.
 

Well that's another stupid thing about Caer Bronach. If the Inquisition held on to it, why hasn't Ferelden requested it be returned until just suddenly two years later? And if they requested it be returned soon after Corypheus' defeat, then are they saying the Inquisition has outright defied them for two years? It seems to me that Bronach was just an excuse. If you don't take the keep, Teagan resorts to feigning outrage at the few troops stationed at the crossroads who had been keeping away mages, templars... and bandits too apparently (since that is your response to Teagan). And even if you had camps, and troops, and watchtowers and whatever else all set up around Ferelden, so what? Therinfal Redoubt is owned by the Seekers (the Inquisition). The Circle Towers are owned by the Chantry, and Seekers have full authority over them. Same with Aeonar. All in Ferelden, none of them complained about. Again, seems like Teagan was just throwing anything out there and seeing what stuck. Like how he goes off on Grey Wardens when his own nephew is a Grey Warden.

 

If Ferelden is suspicious of Orlais (I guess that peace treaty Josephine worked out was all for naught), then Ferelden should be supporting the Inquisition's independence, not trying to actively push it to Orlais.

 

Not all of them supported Sophia. The impression I got was that only those ghosts seen in the first room with her supported her, as well as maybe a few other soldiers who may have died before that.

 

I didn't write that the Couslands went unpunished. I acknowledge that many of them were killed, just as many of the Wardens were killed. However, unlike the Wardens, the Couslands were not exiled. They did not lose their lands. Yet the Wardens and Drydens were. Why? Personal vendetta of Arland against Sophia. That's all it was. It had nothing to do with the Wardens invading as Teagan claims. And what the Wardens did has nothing to do with the present when the Wardens own Amaranthine.

 

You're right that many nobles in Orlais sided with the Inquisition to forward their own status, and if Orlais and Ferelden pulled out all the stops, the Inquisition would brutalize them both politically and economically. It would also be time for the Nightingale to take flight and start looking for some juicy secrets. They could turn banns and lords against each other. Look how easily it was done in Awakening with the rioters demanding food, or the banns trying to plot against the WC. Let's also not forget that Vivienne could be Divine, and if she considers the Inquisitor a friend, she would eat the Orlesian nobles alive. So would a steeled Leliana.

 

But there are Chantries all over Ferelden. Merging with the Chantry again just means the military force is now spread over even more areas. And why would Teagan accept that, especially of the Divine was placed on the Sunburst Throne by the Inquisitor? This also opens the Inquisition up to massive funding, as all offerings to the Chantry could then be used to grow the Inquisition.

 

For all the talk of Orlais and Ferelden having influence over the Inquisition, it sure fizzled out at the end if the Inquisition merges back in with the Chantry, even though neither side got what it wanted. Honestly, the Inquisition simply reducing its number of troops would have been better for Ferelden's concerns.

[The Baconer]

Who else is with me on this? Who all wanted the Inquisition to remain an independent watch-dog organization keeping everyone in check?

 

"Keeping everyone in check" from what? Sounds poorly-defined and inescapably prone to abuse and corruption. I just got done burying a group like that, Thedas doesn't need another one. 

[Dai Grepher]

The years were not good to him that is for sure.  They totally changed his look and his personality was changed 100%.  Now people do change so I would not be opposed to this type of thing if there was a rational in game explanation such as him marrying widow Isolde and being nagged to death.  'TEAGHANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN  take out zeeee trash!'

 

It's like they took the Teagan out of the worldstate where everyone in Redcliffe dies, Isolde dies, Jowan lives, Connor ends up possessed at the end, Alistair is executed, Loghain lives, the Hero of Ferelden becomes King and marries Queen Anora, the WC rules Gwaren, and the WC lets Amaranthine burn to the ground while building up Vigil's Keep to become a center of trade, thus undercutting Redcliffe's profits.

 

I would understand THAT Teagan being so ugly and bitter.

[diaspora2k5]

Who else is with me on this? Who all wanted the Inquisition to remain an independent watch-dog organization keeping everyone in check?

No, that sounds like an awful idea.

[Heimdall]

But neither of those nations have authority over the Inquisition. The only influence they have would be martial, and they can't muster enough military force to take on the Inquisition. No way. Unless the Inquisition was minimalist, like I posted above.

Wow, you are severely overestimated the military power at the Inquisition's command. They hold three forts plus Skyhold and have only displayed one army deployed in a siege using siege engines on loan from a noble ally. The only reason the Inquisition's force was significant was because Orlais' military capacity was busy fighting itself. Reunited, Orlais alone could crush the Inquisition if they really wanted too. Ferelden could probably repel the Inquisition with difficulty if they invaded, though like I said Ferelden is more concerned about what the Inquisition can do with Orlais' backing.

Well that's another stupid thing about Caer Bronach. If the Inquisition held on to it, why hasn't Ferelden requested it be returned until just suddenly two years later? And if they requested it be returned soon after Corypheus' defeat, then are they saying the Inquisition has outright defied them for two years? It seems to me that Bronach was just an excuse. If you don't take the keep, Teagan resorts to feigning outrage at the few troops stationed at the crossroads who had been keeping away mages, templars... and bandits too apparently (since that is your response to Teagan). And even if you had camps, and troops, and watchtowers and whatever else all set up around Ferelden, so what? Therinfal Redoubt is owned by the Seekers (the Inquisition). The Circle Towers are owned by the Chantry, and Seekers have full authority over them. Same with Aeonar. All in Ferelden, none of them complained about. Again, seems like Teagan was just throwing anything out there and seeing what stuck. Like how he goes off on Grey Wardens when his own nephew is a Grey Warden.

As I said, its a kangaroo court, a farce intended to push political agendas. For Ferelden, that agenda is removing the independent paramilitary organization holding Ferelden land without consent of the crown (Which all your Circle/Chantry examples have as they were gifts granted by the crown) and the potential threat it poses to their sovereignty.

If Ferelden is suspicious of Orlais (I guess that peace treaty Josephine worked out was all for naught), then Ferelden should be supporting the Inquisition's independence, not trying to actively push it to Orlais.

Ferelden was an Orlesian province less than half a century ago, a peace treaty isn't going to make that go away especially when some nobles in Orlais like the idea of reclaiming their former province and someone like Gaspard could be on the throne. Ferelden wants the Inquisition gone altogether, they don't want it independent. An independent Inquisition remains a potential threat with close ties to many Orlesian nobles and the Orlesian ruler.

Not all of them supported Sophia. The impression I got was that only those ghosts seen in the first room with her supported her, as well as maybe a few other soldiers who may have died before that.
 
I didn't write that the Couslands went unpunished. I acknowledge that many of them were killed, just as many of the Wardens were killed. However, unlike the Wardens, the Couslands were not exiled. They did not lose their lands. Yet the Wardens and Drydens were. Why? Personal vendetta of Arland against Sophia. That's all it was. It had nothing to do with the Wardens invading as Teagan claims. And what the Wardens did has nothing to do with the present when the Wardens own Amaranthine.

Codex entries indicate that only a small minority declined to support her and they left the country. Sophia is said to have reinvigorated the order with her charismatic leadership and political connections, rapidly expanding its membership under her command. Most of her Wardens adored her and were recruited by her.

Arland spared the Couselands because they are one of the oldest and most powerful families in Ferelden, he killed many of them merely to force them into line. The Drydens were another matter, Arland feared that Sophia's kin would take up her cause and her claim to the throne after her death. That's why he dispossessed them and hunted them down, to prevent a dynastic challenge to his rule. Without the Drydens, the civil war could not continue.

You're right that many nobles in Orlais sided with the Inquisition to forward their own status, and if Orlais and Ferelden pulled out all the stops, the Inquisition would brutalize them both politically and economically. It would also be time for the Nightingale to take flight and start looking for some juicy secrets. They could turn banns and lords against each other. Look how easily it was done in Awakening with the rioters demanding food, or the banns trying to plot against the WC. Let's also not forget that Vivienne could be Divine, and if she considers the Inquisitor a friend, she would eat the Orlesian nobles alive. So would a steeled Leliana.

You overestimate the nobility's dedication to the Inquisition and the capabilities of the Inquisition's spies. The Inquisition is not the only one with spies and it would be dueling the resources of two kingdoms with the ability to cut off their supply lines. This isn't a small group of local nobles scheming against their lord, this is two powerful crowns against an independent organization dependent on patronage. Even the Divine couldn't make much of a dent if both Orlais and Ferelden decided to cut their support of the Inquisition or even actively move against it.

But there are Chantries all over Ferelden. Merging with the Chantry again just means the military force is now spread over even more areas. And why would Teagan accept that, especially of the Divine was placed on the Sunburst Throne by the Inquisitor? This also opens the Inquisition up to massive funding, as all offerings to the Chantry could then be used to grow the Inquisition.

But the Inquisition would then be bound by the same limitations as the Chantry, no more holding private fortresses without the permission of the crown, no more marching columns of soldiers through the Ferelden countryside with no regard. They're military force is being reduced. Ferelden is getting an improvement, if not exactly what they want.

For all the talk of Orlais and Ferelden having influence over the Inquisition, it sure fizzled out at the end if the Inquisition merges back in with the Chantry, even though neither side got what it wanted. Honestly, the Inquisition simply reducing its number of troops would have been better for Ferelden's concerns.

They do reduce their number of troops with its mandate shifted to peacekeeping, plus the Inquisition gets folded into an organization that is practically synonymous with supporting the status quo. Its not exactly what either side wanted, but it suits both their interests.

[LordParbr]

This is Arival all over again... Realistically, those are the only 2 options. Otherwise, the Inquisition goes to war with the combined forces of Orlais and Ferelden, tearing both countries apart and making the Inquisition useless to anyone until it inevitably falls apart.

[Dai Grepher]

@Heimdall You are probably like me where you reply to the post as you read it, but if you skip down to a later part of my post I reference how the Inquisition could defeat both nations simultaneously.

 

 

...you are severely overestimated the military power at the Inquisition's command.

 

To counter this I will need to use the premise that the Inquisition is as strong as the game will canonically allow. No argument that a weaker Inquisition would fall, but I'll use my Inquisition as an example, since I did just about everything in the game except for some meaningless things like spoils DLC or multiplayer content.

 

Had all keeps, all camps, watchtowers in the Hinterlands, conscripted the templars, romanced Cassandra, brought Lucius to justice (which means Therinfal Redoubt was property of the Seekers once again, and Cassandra is the head Seeker and is a definite ally), reestablished the Circles with Vivienne as Divine and a close friend, claimed all landmarks and resources (all logging stands and quarries), closed all rifts (not sure if this matters, but it might play well with the commoners and certain lords/ladies), have an alliance with the Qunari (who are allegedly well inserted into various courts across southern Thedas), have a strong alliance with Orzammar especially after the titan incident, have respect from the Avvar, have positive friendships with all three advisors (all of whom will stand up for the Inquisition no matter what comes), have Inspired Leliana who will use her spies to find secrets about any enemies and use them against them, have Josephine who can turn nobles against each other, have Lyrium-free Cullen who can inspire the soldiers, have political alliances in the Free Marches like Varric and Sebastian, my Trevelyan is from Ostwick (which means he has allies there), has Fairbanks as an ally and let him remain as just one of the people (so he can help rally the people), helped all commoners (who will oppose the lords who want to war with the organization that helped them), and aside from all the things I can't remember at the moment the politics is on the Inquisition's side. Ferelden granted asylum to rebel mages, leading to war within its borders, but now it wants to war with the organization that stopped the war? Orlais wants to control an organization that exposed corruption within the Orlesian court and saved the life of its empress? They want control when they can't even control their various lords and ladies from conspiring against each other? Come on. The people wouldn't support them. Then of course there is Skyhold, which is highly defensible, and the Western Approach fort is defensible and provides a way for the Inquisition to attack Orlais from both sides. The Inquisition also has Sulidin Keep and multiple locations in the Dales that can be utilized. The Inquisition also has camps in the Frostback Basin, as well as control over some elven ruins that could be used as bases (Temple of Dirthamen, Cradle of Sulivin). Also Tevinter ruins in the Basin.

 

...though like I said Ferelden is more concerned about what the Inquisition can do with Orlais' backing.

 

Then refusing Orlais' offer should be enough to persuade Ferelden to ease off.

 

...its a kangaroo court, a farce intended to push political agendas. For Ferelden, that agenda is removing the independent paramilitary organization holding Ferelden land without consent of the crown (Which all your Circle/Chantry examples have as they were gifts granted by the crown) and the potential threat it poses to their sovereignty.

 

My Inquisitor would have happily made those concessions however. So I doubt it would have come to war anyway. But even without Caer Bronach or the Ferelden campsites, there's no way Ferelden can take Skyhold. At least, not with the Hero of Ferelden still on the cure quest. But this was mainly a complaint about what Ferelden was demanding. Seems more like an excuse. So I think this was just saber rattling. You could keep Bronach and Ferelden would do nothing. It was all a bluff.

 

Ferelden was an Orlesian province less than half a century ago, a peace treaty isn't going to make that go away especially when some nobles in Orlais like the idea of reclaiming their former province and someone like Gaspard could be on the throne.

 

More of a gripe that the treaty was ultimately meaningless, but even this could work against the two countries. The Inquisition could use it as propaganda. Your Orlesian leaders signed a treaty and now they break it! We support Ferelden's sovereignty, will Ferelden support the Inquisition's independence? No? The Inquisition should still disband? Well maybe joining this warmongering Orlais would be a good move for the Inquisition then. Like I wrote, if Ferelden is nervous about Orlais, then refusing their offer should settle the Ferelden nobles down. Any action Ferelden takes to disband the Inquisition would logically only push it toward an alliance with Orlais. It wouldn't be unprecedented, as Ameridan planned to ally the Inquisition with Drakon's new Orlais.

 

Ferelden wants the Inquisition gone altogether, they don't want it independent. An independent Inquisition remains a potential threat with close ties to many Orlesian nobles and the Orlesian ruler.

 

So they would rather the Inquisition join Orlais? That's even worse. The dog lords are chasing their own tails. If the Inquisition doesn't want to disband, and Ferelden forced them toward that, then it will only make the Inquisition join Orlais rather than disband completely. Then where will Ferelden be?

 

Codex entries indicate that only a small minority declined to support her and they left the country.

 

A small minority of Ferelden's Grey Wardens? Because the game states that Weisshaupt refused any support. I would think all Wardens not connected to Sophia at all would simply refuse to answer her call to arms.

 

Arland spared the Couselands because they are one of the oldest and most powerful families in Ferelden, he killed many of them merely to force them into line. The Drydens were another matter, Arland feared that Sophia's kin would take up her cause and her claim to the throne after her death. That's why he dispossessed them and hunted them down, to prevent a dynastic challenge to his rule. Without the Drydens, the civil war could not continue.

 

As Origins demonstrates, a civil war can continue so long as you have nobles who oppose you. It has nothing to do with family name. If he exiled the Drydens because they were a threat, then the same would have been done to the Couslands, since as you wrote, they were a powerful family (I doubt them being "old" crossed Arland's mind). The Couslands owned a teyrnir. Sophia was a mere arlessa (probably one of Arland's). The greater military threat was the Cousland family. I'm sure the Couslands backed off and promised fealty to Arland, even if just as a natural courtesy, but if Arland was concerned with retaliation then he could have exiled the Couslands as well. And my point is that if he gave the Couslands a pass, he should have given the Grey Warden's a pass too, since they officially never supported Sophia. She went rogue with her own followers, but Arland banned the Wardens anyway. It was to spite her.

 

But this is all beside the point. My main point is that Teagan is talking out of his ass because he doesn't know history (or maybe it's BioWare that doesn't).

 

You overestimate the nobility's dedication to the Inquisition and the capabilities of the Inquisition's spies. The Inquisition is not the only one with spies and it would be dueling the resources of two kingdoms with the ability to cut off their supply lines.

 

You don't think there are Orlesian nobles who would like to see others get taken out in some foolish fight with the Inquisition, especially when it means they profit from it? And you think most Ferelden nobles would support a war when the nation is already weakened from the 5th Blight and the Mage/Templar War? You think they would be moved by their inept Queen and absent King (or their foolish king if it's Alistair)?

 

How would they cut off their supply lines exactly? Skyhold is connected through the Frostbacks to the Dales and the Frostback Basin. It also has Orzammar to the north. It could also use the Storm Coast to get supplies from Kirkwall. The Blades of Hessarian could help. I think the only place that Orlais might be able to isolate is the Western Approach, but even they might be able to buy resources from Tevinter, which Dorian could make happen.

 

This isn't a small group of local nobles scheming against their lord, this is two powerful crowns against an independent organization dependent on patronage.

 

The Inquisition is not dependent though. We've already established that. And Ferelden is not powerful. Orlais is powerful, but prone to corruption.

 

Even the Divine couldn't make much of a dent if both Orlais and Ferelden decided to cut their support of the Inquisition or even actively move against it.

 

The Iron Divine could. Aside from knowing the Game, she would command the Chantry's Templars and loyal mages. And the people would support her, not their feudal lords. Better to serve the Maker, right?

 

But the Inquisition would then be bound by the same limitations as the Chantry, no more holding private fortresses without the permission of the crown, no more marching columns of soldiers through the Ferelden countryside with no regard. They're military force is being reduced. Ferelden is getting an improvement, if not exactly what they want.

 

Until the Inquisition turns on them all at once and from every angel and every hall of every court.

 

... Its not exactly what either side wanted, but it suits both their interests.

 

How so? Is disbanding the same as merging with the Chantry? If not, then I don't see how Ferelden's demands were met. A simple example of how it's worse, if the Inquisition merges with the Chantry, then Caer Bronach becomes Chantry owned. Which organization was larger, the Inquisition or the Chantry? Good luck getting Caer Bronach back from widows and 'orfans', Tegaaahn.

[Dai Grepher]

This is Arival all over again... Realistically, those are the only 2 options. Otherwise, the Inquisition goes to war with the combined forces of Orlais and Ferelden, tearing both countries apart and making the Inquisition useless to anyone until it inevitably falls apart.

 

No, accepting Orlais' offer could be another option. What's stopping that from happening, other than BioWare's laziness?

 

And the Inquisition was the most powerful force in southern Thedas at the time. No way it can lose to a couple of broken and corruptible countries.

[Alex Hawke]

Yeah, we need another power-hungry tyrant, Corypheus clearly wasn't bad enough.

---

The 2 reasons why the Inquisition existed were Corypheus and the Breach. The first is dead and the second is closed and not many people who backed the organization at the beginning would continue after it stops being useful for them. Attempts to conquer former supporters would bring the number to zero.

[Chiramu]

I wish there was a quest to assassinate Teagan. Can't stand that ungrateful ******.

 

it's not his fault, poor implementation of his position is the reason he's come out like that. The writers wanted to have the pro-Inquisition and con-Inquisition sides. It was the writing that ruined Teagan, it has nothing to do with Teagan being a bad character. 

[Derrame]

i would toally keep the inquisition as a defense and offensive force, why would someone dismantel  it!? :,C

don't you have any feelings for it and all the people/allies/time/feelings involved in it!?

[Dai Grepher]

it's not his fault, poor implementation of his position is the reason he's come out like that. The writers wanted to have the pro-Inquisition and con-Inquisition sides. It was the writing that ruined Teagan, it has nothing to do with Teagan being a bad character. 

 

Garevel would have been the better person to use. They should have had him explain that some Grey Wardens once attempted a coup centuries ago, proving that no organization is beyond corruption and rogue factions. He should also voice some opposition to an Inquisitor who exiled the Grey Wardens from Orlais. It would make sense for him, seeing as how he has worked closely with Grey Wardens at Vigil's Keep.

 

As for the accusation of having Grey Wardens in the Inquisition's ranks. That's just false. The Grey Wardens were allies, part of their own organization, and they left for Weisshaupt soon after Corypheus was defeated.

[ModernAcademic]

it's not his fault, poor implementation of his position is the reason he's come out like that. The writers wanted to have the pro-Inquisition and con-Inquisition sides. It was the writing that ruined Teagan, it has nothing to do with Teagan being a bad character. 

 

Hear, hear.

 

Those poor sods who keep wanting to kill him have never had the chance to meet our legendary Bann in Origins.

 

He was in his prime back then: still looking reasonably young, sassy, courageous - he fought alongside his men, he ventured alone in the castle just to buy the Warden some time, he faced darkspawn in Denerim - and he still had his hair! Not to mention he knew how to party hard. Just ask Connor.

And of course, you could flirt with him, which was a very nice touch by the devs. 

 

 

Now he's just old and bitter and...and wtf was he wearing at the Exalted Council? Was that a banner?

[Nefla]

My elven mage who hated shems felt the same way.

If only DA:I had actually allowed for that kind of character

[nightscrawl]

Threads like this always make me laugh because I'm one of the few guys who actively chose to keep the Inquisition and kill Solas over redeeming him

Its like when I uploaded Iron Bulls betrayal to Youtube and saw the comments section flooded with people talking about going back to change their decision in his loyalty mission

Your given reasonable choices but naturally there always gonna be aomeone who wants the story to compensate for EVERY possible choice even game ending ones lol

See, this is why I try to avoid spoilers as much as I possibly can. In fact, after the first trailer or whatever is released for the next game I may abandon the forums completely.

I've made alternate decisions on successive plays based on meta information, but I've found that the first play always has the greatest impact if you go in completely blind. Hell, I went in mostly blind for DAI, and I still wish I never knew the orientation of the romance options or anything about them before hand.

So, for Iron Bull, it just seems more "fun" to me to have chosen the Qun and then be horrified by his betrayal as we were meant to be. And I say that as someone this doesn't apply to, since I never trust the Qunari's ultimate agenda and save the Chargers anyway. But if you chose to sacrifice the Chargers and kept him loyal to the Qun, well you should go with the consequence of your choice.

 

Was I horrified on my first DAO play when Alistair sacrificed himself and there was nothing I could do about it? I certainly was, but it was really damn awesome storytelling. Did I change things in my successive plays to have the "best" results for my own preference? I sure did, but nothing can take away the impact of that first play.

 

More of that, please.

[Nimlowyn]

So, for Iron Bull, it just seems more "fun" to me to have chosen the Qun and then be horrified by his betrayal as we were meant to be. And I say that as someone this doesn't apply to, since I never trust the Qunari's ultimate agenda and save the Chargers anyway. But if you chose to sacrifice the Chargers and kept him loyal to the Qun, well you should go with the consequence of your choice.

 

Was I horrified on my first DAO play when Alistair sacrificed himself and there was nothing I could do about it? I certainly was, but it was really damn awesome storytelling. Did I change things in my successive plays to have the "best" results for my own preference? I sure did, but nothing can take away the impact of that first play.

 

More of that, please.

I second this. My canon character saved the Dreadnought. I had this sinking feeling throughout Trespasser that was confirmed in one horrifying moment and in one gut-wrenching battle. I was really, really upset. It bothered me for days. It was, to borrow your words, damn awesome storytelling. Am I tempted to change this choice in my next canon run? Yes. Yet, nothing can take away from the moment, from what it meant for that playthrough. I am all for consequences. 

[Dai Grepher]

So, for Iron Bull, it just seems more "fun" to me to have chosen the Qun and then be horrified by his betrayal as we were meant to be. And I say that as someone this doesn't apply to, since I never trust the Qunari's ultimate agenda and save the Chargers anyway. But if you chose to sacrifice the Chargers and kept him loyal to the Qun, well you should go with the consequence of your choice.

 

Except that isn't the consequence of your choice. My female elven mage didn't do anything with the Qunari and the Chargers were alive. They even got him a dragon skull for his nameday. He still betrays her.

 

I felt the emotion on my first run with my male human mage, and I even had Bull in the party with me the whole DLC, even in that battle. He turned, leaving me with a three member party. So I got the full impact of it. But ultimately it still felt empty because his betrayal made no sense. All the evidence gathered showed that Viddasala was Tal-Vashoth. There's no way Hissrad should have be deceived by her in contrast to the clear evidence.

 

The game should have had a system where Iron Bull will either side with you or Viddasala based on the evidence you discover in his presence. And the letter proving Viddasala's guilt was much too strong for Iron Bull to ignore. It should have been left more ambiguous until after Viddasala gives Bull the order to turn.

[GoldenGail3]

Hear, hear.
 
Those poor sods who keep wanting to kill him have never had the chance to meet our legendary Bann in Origins.
 
He was in his prime back then: still looking reasonably young, sassy, courageous - he fought alongside his men, he ventured alone in the castle just to buy the Warden some time, he faced darkspawn in Denerim - and he still had his hair! Not to mention he knew how to party hard. Just ask Connor.
And of course, you could flirt with him, which was a very nice touch by the devs. 
 
 
Now he's just old and bitter and...and wtf was he wearing at the Exalted Council? Was that a banner?

And he has a odd looking bowl hat.... I wonder who made him wear it? ISOLDE! I think so.... There are no other reasons why he'd like that besides for Isolde actually.

[Boost32]

Except that isn't the consequence of your choice. My female elven mage didn't do anything with the Qunari and the Chargers were alive. They even got him a dragon skull for his nameday. He still betrays her.
 
I felt the emotion on my first run with my male human mage, and I even had Bull in the party with me the whole DLC, even in that battle. He turned, leaving me with a three member party. So I got the full impact of it. But ultimately it still felt empty because his betrayal made no sense. All the evidence gathered showed that Viddasala was Tal-Vashoth. There's no way Hissrad should have be deceived by her in contrast to the clear evidence.
 
The game should have had a system where Iron Bull will either side with you or Viddasala based on the evidence you discover in his presence. And the letter proving Viddasala's guilt was much too strong for Iron Bull to ignore. It should have been left more ambiguous until after Viddasala gives Bull the order to turn.

She was not a Tal-Vashoth. The Triumvirate were lying in that letter.

[Dai Grepher]

That letter which was not delivered to Josephine because Viddasala intercepted it from the Triumvirate and crumpled it into a ball? She was Tal-Vashoth. She was going against the Triumvirate's commands and acting on her own. She wasted dozens of Qunari lives trying to kill the Triumvirate's ally as well as their fellow proven Qunari, Hissrad.

[The Baconer]

She was not a Tal-Vashoth. The Triumvirate were lying in that letter.

 

And now we all know the proper approach to Qunari relations in DA4.

[Spectr61]

The point you have to accept is that, ultimately, getting massacred by the rest of Thedas is not an option. I suppose they should have allowed a non-standard game over: the Inquisition refuses to disband, and eventually they just phase to the scrolling epilogue where Skyhold is sieged and the Inquisitor is killed as a rebel, with no one to stop Solas (ala ME2's bad ending).

Huh?

ME2 had a great ending. It's ME3's that sucked.

Closely followed by DAI.

Disband or servitude. Give me a break.

Probably the same genius responsible for the ME3 fiasco.

And all this worrisome for MEA....

[Boost32]

That letter which was not delivered to Josephine because Viddasala intercepted it from the Triumvirate and crumpled it into a ball? She was Tal-Vashoth. She was going against the Triumvirate's commands and acting on her own. She wasted dozens of Qunari lives trying to kill the Triumvirate's ally as well as their fellow proven Qunari, Hissrad.

The letter was because she failed, the Qun would never say "yeah we tried to kill you and every head of state of Thedas. No hard feelings".
It was damage control, before every nation of Thedas united against the Qun before they invaded gain.