it's not his fault, poor implementation of his position is the reason he's come out like that. The writers wanted to have the pro-Inquisition and con-Inquisition sides. It was the writing that ruined Teagan, it has nothing to do with Teagan being a bad character.
You are correct, his writing in Trespasser was a more effective assassination of the character than any murder-knife could have managed.
The part that involves us disrupting the Qunari and stopping Dragon's Breath, which we spend the entire DLC doing.
If it were me, after being pwned that hard, I'd stick my head in the sand and remain like that till the end of time.
I guess, the reason why Teagan is antagonistic against the Inquisition and was supportive for DA:O party is that he saw DA:O protagonist as a fellow Fereldan or at least as a hero passing-by, who could be used and certainly wasn't a threat to his (or Eamon's) authority. While the Inquisition is considered as an occupation force or/and part of the Orlesian Empire, directly threatening Ferelden's lands and independence (e.g. taxes, resources and volunteers from Crestwood likely were going to Caer Bronach instead of Denerim. Even if bandits, the undead and the dragon were stopped by the Inquisition and the villagers of Crestwood were grateful, it didn't make the organization the owner of the territory).
So, Teagan's attitude is understandable, yet still disappointing.
I guess, the reason why Teagan is antagonistic against the Inquisition and was supportive for DA:O party is that he saw DA:O protagonist as a fellow Fereldan or at least as a hero passing-by, who could be used and certainly wasn't a threat to his (or Eamon's) authority. While the Inquisition is considered as an occupation force or/and part of the Orlesian Empire, directly threatening Ferelden's lands and independence (e.g. taxes, resources and volunteers from Crestwood likely were going to Caer Bronach instead of Denerim. Even if bandits, the undead and the dragon were stopped by the Inquisition and the villagers of Crestwood were grateful, it didn't make the organization the owner of the territory).
So, Teagan's attitude is understandable, yet still disappointing.
Yet it's incredibly strange that he uses the Grey Wardens as a comparison to say how bad the Inquisition is when:
-In many playthroughs, a Grey Warden saved his current castle and holdings, as well as his family.
-In every playthrough, the Arling of Amaranthine is under the Grey Wardens' jurisdiction.
-If the DLC is active, the Fereldan Grey Wardens have yet another fortress in the country.
Of course, depending on choices the Warden left the village to die and never helped the Hinterlands or recovered Redcliff Castle from the Venatori, in which case the link would be more tenuous. However, if no matter what the Fereldan representative was going to be a "Inquisition, go home!" strawman, it would have been better if Bioware had chosen another character instead of one that may end up insulting the two organizations to whom he has a direct debt of gratitude.
To be fair, he drew the comparison to the incarnation of the Grey Wardens that followed Sophia Dryden in her attempt to usurp the Ferelden throne, not the current Grey Wardens.Yet it's incredibly strange that he uses the Grey Wardens as a comparison to say how bad the Inquisition is when:
-In many playthroughs, a Grey Warden saved his current castle and holdings, as well as his family.
-In every playthrough, the Arling of Amaranthine is under the Grey Wardens' jurisdiction.
-If the DLC is active, the Fereldan Grey Wardens have yet another fortress in the country.
Of course, depending on choices the Warden left the village to die and never helped the Hinterlands or recovered Redcliff Castle from the Venatori, in which case the link would be more tenuous. However, if no matter what the Fereldan representative was going to be a "Inquisition, go home!" strawman, it would have been better if Bioware had chosen another character instead of one that may end up insulting the two organizations to whom he has a direct debt of gratitude.
Yes, he waited for the Inquisitor's word before making the final decision.
All I know of the Qun as it is literally written has exceedingly little relevance in our interactions with Qunari. Beyond that, all we know is what we're told by the Qunari themselves, who have been consistently inconsistent. If you want a more prominent example of the Qun being "broken" for the advancement of the Qunari, one could argue that their entire policy on magic, and potentially the use of Viddath-Bas.
There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.Knowledge of the complex is wisdom.From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self.
Mastery of the self is mastery of the world. Loss of the self is the source of suffering.Or a male shopkeeper (distributor of goods). The point is that certain vocations are reserved for specific genders in Qunari society, but when a person possesses an aptitude for a vocation that is outside their gender, they "become" the opposite gender. Even though they don't. Or when one's work is practically the same or very similar to a vocation that is outside their gender (such as Ben-Hassrath members who fight), but as long as the work goes by a different name, there is no violation. A bas Saarebas who becomes Basalit-An is no longer bas Saarebas, because speaking to and interacting with unbound mages is forbidden otherwise. But of course, they're still a mage in reality.
It's a procession of nonsense-logic allowing for a potentially-infinite number of loopholes for the sake of convenience. And said loopholes have been used often.
Riiiight.
Yes, which wasn't supposed to happen. Then he summoned the spirits which was also not supposed to happen. Engaging the Inquisitor in combat was never part of their plan, because it's simply a losing proposition (as demonstrated by the loss of the Gaatlok, the Lyrium mines, and in Iron Bull's death). Yet, they were forced to put up resistance if they wanted any hope of Dragon's Breath succeeding.
Well, yeah, he's Qunari.
The part that involves us disrupting the Qunari and stopping Dragon's Breath, which we spend the entire DLC doing.
That's a gameplay mechanic. The pause is to let the player respond. It is not to be taken as the characters looking to the player for a response in every case. Sometimes it's just an indication that the player character will say something. Without an option to say nothing, or that you will support whatever decision Bull makes, there is no way to tell if Bull was looking to the Inquisitor for help or not.
The only one who has been inconsistent so far has been Bull, and even his claim about aqun-athlok could be a simple matter of omission. Meaning, aqun-athlok are identified by the Qunari, but they are not accepted and placed in the gender role they want, as Bull allows Krem to believe. The Qunari use saarebas as weapons because that is their purpose. They are dangerous things. When not being used as weapons they are kept under tight control. Same with using bas. They are things. They are to be used until a time when they can be properly enlightened. These are not examples of the Qun being broken. Nothing in the Qun states that you cannot work with or along side non-Qunari. Sten did it in Origins. The Arishok did it in DA2.
You misunderstand. A mage who is basalit-an is simply "a dangerous thing worthy of respect". There is no contradiction here. Also, there is no evidence that the Qunari consider a person of any gender to be the opposite gender if they show an aptitude for something designated to the opposite gender.
The only "loophole" I'm aware of is for Tallis. She is considered a female who is not a warrior, but rather one who seeks, hunts, and "stops" targets. Or something like that. They simply recognize an assassin as a different type of role than warrior, which is male only.
Cole can be seen just standing outside the tavern. He is never seen interacting with anyone except for perhaps Maryden.
Yeah... so... why did you omit my point and skip over it? If the Inquisitor was meant to die in the explosion (the anchor was not a known threat until later) and then Solas' sabotage messed things up at the beginning, and if the Qunari just HAD to attack the Inquisitor on sight, then I reiterate my point that you neglected to address... Why didn't Hissrad (whom you believe was in on it the whole time) kill the Inquisitor at the elvhen temples? Why did he instead kill fellow Qunari and allow the Inquisitor to keep finding out more about Dragon's Breath?
It isn't that he was Qunari, it's that BioWare assassinated his character.
And how exactly did we disrupt the Qunari plot by merely walking up to the elvhen temple with the intent of HELPING them? You're also neglecting my second point here. Viddasala assumed the Inquisition was working for the agent of Fen'Harel for a long time before this. The question is WHY she believed this when Hissrad is there to confirm that this was definitely not the case.
I guess, the reason why Teagan is antagonistic against the Inquisition and was supportive for DA:O party is that he saw DA:O protagonist as a fellow Fereldan or at least as a hero passing-by, who could be used and certainly wasn't a threat to his (or Eamon's) authority. While the Inquisition is considered as an occupation force or/and part of the Orlesian Empire, directly threatening Ferelden's lands and independence (e.g. taxes, resources and volunteers from Crestwood likely were going to Caer Bronach instead of Denerim. Even if bandits, the undead and the dragon were stopped by the Inquisition and the villagers of Crestwood were grateful, it didn't make the organization the owner of the territory).
So, Teagan's attitude is understandable, yet still disappointing.
His position is sensible enough. It's his reasoning that is off the wall. He had no legitimate reason to be so hostile to the Inquisition, and the examples he pointed to in order to support his argument were just plain awful. How dare you toss bandits out of an abandoned keep/establish order to prevent mages and templars from killing innocent people? How dare you ally with Grey Wardens who already own Amaranthine and the Ferelden crown too (maybe)?
Yet it's incredibly strange that he uses the Grey Wardens as a comparison to say how bad the Inquisition is when:
-In many playthroughs, a Grey Warden saved his current castle and holdings, as well as his family.
-In every playthrough, the Arling of Amaranthine is under the Grey Wardens' jurisdiction.
-If the DLC is active, the Fereldan Grey Wardens have yet another fortress in the country.
Of course, depending on choices the Warden left the village to die and never helped the Hinterlands or recovered Redcliff Castle from the Venatori, in which case the link would be more tenuous. However, if no matter what the Fereldan representative was going to be a "Inquisition, go home!" strawman, it would have been better if Bioware had chosen another character instead of one that may end up insulting the two organizations to whom he has a direct debt of gratitude.
Yes, they should have used Seneschal Garevel (same voice actor as Teagan) or Bann Creolic (Loghain's blindly loyal supporter, also the same voice actor as Loghain).
That's a gameplay mechanic. The pause is to let the player respond.
No. Pay attention to body language.
The only one who has been inconsistent so far has been Bull, and even his claim about aqun-athlok could be a simple matter of omission. Meaning, aqun-athlok are identified by the Qunari, but they are not accepted and placed in the gender role they want, as Bull allows Krem to believe.
This is literally wrong by Word of God.
These are not examples of the Qun being broken. Nothing in the Qun states that you cannot work with or along side non-Qunari. Sten did it in Origins. The Arishok did it in DA2.
Good thing I never said that.
You misunderstand. A mage who is basalit-an is simply "a dangerous thing worthy of respect". There is no contradiction here.
"You misunderstand, I'm going to invent terms and translations that don't exist, and then pretend it's established lore to imply ignorance on your part"
Also, there is no evidence that the Qunari consider a person of any gender to be the opposite gender if they show an aptitude for something designated to the opposite gender.
Again, emphatically incorrect by Word of God.
Cole can be seen just standing outside the tavern. He is never seen interacting with anyone except for perhaps Maryden.
You realise this amounts to "Cole's position on the map was never within the proximity of a spy NPC's navmesh!"
Yeah... so... why did you omit my point and skip over it? If the Inquisitor was meant to die in the explosion (the anchor was not a known threat until later) and then Solas' sabotage messed things up at the beginning, and if the Qunari just HAD to attack the Inquisitor on sight, then I reiterate my point that you neglected to address... Why didn't Hissrad (whom you believe was in on it the whole time) kill the Inquisitor at the elvhen temples? Why did he instead kill fellow Qunari and allow the Inquisitor to keep finding out more about Dragon's Breath?
Because they know has absolutely no chance at besting the Inquisitor, thus he was more useful as mole. It wouldn't even be the first time the Qunari sacrificed their own over some harebrained scheme.
And how exactly did we disrupt the Qunari plot by merely walking up to the elvhen temple with the intent of HELPING them? You're also neglecting my second point here. Viddasala assumed the Inquisition was working for the agent of Fen'Harel for a long time before this. The question is WHY she believed this when Hissrad is there to confirm that this was definitely not the case.
Even if we had a legitimate, vested interest in helping the Qunari when traversing the Eluvian (but let's be honest, we don't), it's irrelevant. The Inquisitor is supposed to die, and our allies are supposed to die. The Qunari's presence was not supposed to be discovered, and when it is, the Inquisitor unravels the plot and stops Dragon's Breath, exactly as Solas intended. Agent or unwitting pawn, the result was the same.
Josephine does say Ferelden would disapprove of an Olesian Inquisition entering Redcliffe to deal with the problem of the Magister and the rebel mages.
I wonder why the Inquisition is considered Orlesian if it broke ties with the Orlesian Chantry, was first located in Haven (located in Ferelden territory), was formed by a Pentaghast (a Nevarran) and never swore loyalty to any country...
No. Pay attention to body language.
This is literally wrong by Word of God.
Good thing I never said that.
"You misunderstand, I'm going to invent terms and translations that don't exist, and then pretend it's established lore to imply ignorance on your part"
Again, emphatically incorrect by Word of God.
You realise this amounts to "Cole's position on the map was never within the proximity of a spy NPC's navmesh!"
Because they know has absolutely no chance at besting the Inquisitor, thus he was more useful as mole. It wouldn't even be the first time the Qunari sacrificed their own over some harebrained scheme.
Even if we had a legitimate, vested interest in helping the Qunari when traversing the Eluvian (but let's be honest, we don't), it's irrelevant. The Inquisitor is supposed to die, and our allies are supposed to die. The Qunari's presence was not supposed to be discovered, and when it is, the Inquisitor unravels the plot and stops Dragon's Breath, exactly as Solas intended. Agent or unwitting pawn, the result was the same.
He looks at the Inquisitor who is about to say something. So what?
If you think writer comments matter, then Mary Kirby backs me up 100%. Gaider does as well, though he's not as clear about it. But the canon is all that matters, and the canon is Sten's account. It is also fact that Bull's claim was vague and never actually confirmed that aqun-athlok are treated as the gender they want to be perceived as.
Then what are you trying to claim? What example do you have of any Qunari bending a rule or even using a loophole to get around a demand of the Qun? As I wrote the only thing close to this that I know of is Tallis' case. They consider her someone who "solves" problems, not one who fights as a soldier.
Thanks. Assume I'm lying instead of just asking for a source. Bas = Thing/Object. Saarebas = Dangerous Thing/Object. Basalit-An = Worthy of respect. There are examples of saarebas being declared basalit-an before Inquisition, a mage Warden who makes the Ultimate Sacrifice, and a mage Hawke who earns the respect of the Arishok. This does not contradict the meaning of the words.
Do you even care about what the writers have said on the issue? Do you accept it as fact?
Cole didn't walk around looking for minds to read. Besides, this is about what the Triumvirate would do knowing Cole is there and can read minds. The answer is nothing. They would not risk it. Viddasala would though, likely because she is not privy to Hissrad's information and is acting outside of the Triumvirate's permission. But if the Triumvirate did orchestrate Dragon's Breath, they would send operatives who had no knowledge of what they were engaging in. Meaning, the elven servant would be sent with the impression that he was delivering wine, not gattlock. So the same would apply to Hissrad. Either he knew and would not have been sent back since Cole would be able to read him, or he was left completely in the dark about it, in which case he should have questioned Viddasala's actions and taken the Triumvirate's letter seriously.
So they had Hissrad stick to being a mole and help the Inquisitor kill Qunari and foil Dragon's Breath because they knew he would not be able to kill the Inquisitor with a sneak attack while multiple other Qunari were attacking the Inquisitor as well. Then after Dragon's Breath was foiled, the Viddasala had Hissrad give up being a mole and attack the Inquisitor even though she knew he would not be able to kill the Inquisitor. That's your position?
We certainly had an interest if they were allied with in Demands of the Qun. But we are discussing the part where the Inquisitor walks up to the main elvhen temple in the middle of the lake. Nothing about Dragon's Breath was apparent here. Nothing was foiled at this point. And if Hissrad was the inside man, why didn't they consult with him first before making any moves? Why is their first reaction to attack the Inquisitor with the intention of killing him?
He looks at the Inquisitor who is about to say something. So what?
This is why we don't dump CHA
If you think writer comments matter, then Mary Kirby backs me up 100%. Gaider does as well, though he's not as clear about it.
You say you're male? Then fighting is acceptable. Even if your biology might say otherwise, the Qunari have a term for what this means and clearly the Tamassrans take it into account -- though you might note Iron Bull did not indicate how easily that might occur.
Then what are you trying to claim? What example do you have of any Qunari bending a rule or even using a loophole to get around a demand of the Qun? As I wrote the only thing close to this that I know of is Tallis' case. They consider her someone who "solves" problems, not one who fights as a soldier.
In addition to the above
The oddity, honestly, is that male Qunari can join the Ben-Hassrath, considering that they fall under the priesthood... (traditionally female-dominated, outside of the Ben-Hassrath and the position of Ariqun).
+Interaction with unbound mages where its prudent
Thanks. Assume I'm lying instead of just asking for a source. Bas = Thing/Object. Saarebas = Dangerous Thing/Object. Basalit-An = Worthy of respect. There are examples of saarebas being declared basalit-an before Inquisition, a mage Warden who makes the Ultimate Sacrifice, and a mage Hawke who earns the respect of the Arishok. This does not contradict the meaning of the words.
There is no portmanteau of Saarebas and Basalit-An, as "dangerous thing worthy of respect" might imply. A bas-saarebas who becomes basalit-an is no longer regarded as saarebas. A mage Grey Warden is not considered saarebas, but a warrior not unlike a member of the Antaam.
Cole didn't walk around looking for minds to read. Besides, this is about what the Triumvirate would do knowing Cole is there and can read minds. The answer is nothing. They would not risk it. Viddasala would though, likely because she is not privy to Hissrad's information and is acting outside of the Triumvirate's permission. But if the Triumvirate did orchestrate Dragon's Breath, they would send operatives who had no knowledge of what they were engaging in. Meaning, the elven servant would be sent with the impression that he was delivering wine, not gattlock. So the same would apply to Hissrad. Either he knew and would not have been sent back since Cole would be able to read him, or he was left completely in the dark about it, in which case he should have questioned Viddasala's actions and taken the Triumvirate's letter seriously.
Cole didn't detect any Qunari agents, Cole didn't detect any of Solas' agents (or of Solas himself), Cole doesn't even detect Qunari assassins at Skyhold. Cole's readings require an emotional component (grief, pain, loss etc.), it's not the "what number am I thinking of" type of mind-reading. Iron Bull, during Trespasser, provided no such component for Cole to draw from.
So they had Hissrad stick to being a mole and help the Inquisitor kill Qunari and foil Dragon's Breath because they knew he would not be able to kill the Inquisitor with a sneak attack while multiple other Qunari were attacking the Inquisitor as well. Then after Dragon's Breath was foiled, the Viddasala had Hissrad give up being a mole and attack the Inquisitor even though she knew he would not be able to kill the Inquisitor. That's your position?
Yes, the plan was dependent on not engaging the Inquisitor in open conflict. The Darvaarad was their Hail Mary, which was at the very least meant to stall the Inquisitor long enough for the Anchor to kill them, all while the Viddasala barreled toward Solas.
We certainly had an interest if they were allied with in Demands of the Qun. But we are discussing the part where the Inquisitor walks up to the main elvhen temple in the middle of the lake. Nothing about Dragon's Breath was apparent here. Nothing was foiled at this point. And if Hissrad was the inside man, why didn't they consult with him first before making any moves? Why is their first reaction to attack the Inquisitor with the intention of killing him?
The interest is not "let's go help the Qunari!", it's "wait, why is there an armored Qunari here with no word from the Triumvirate?"
Why would the Qunari try to talk it out (with a Hissrad who might not even be accompanying the Inquisitor)? The Inquisitor's presence means something has gone horribly wrong, and to their knowledge, the Inquisition are supposed to be Agents of Fen'Harel. Aside from that, they would also have to explain why the Qunari have a militarized force creeping around through the Eluvians, one of which just coincidentally leads to the super-important Exalted Council they were not invited to.
The Inquisition does have strong ties to Orlais, most notably to the Emperor/Empress. Forming ties with Orlesian nobles features in many war table missions and let's not forget that the current head of the Orlesian Chantry is a former member of the Inqusition's inner circle.Josephine does say Ferelden would disapprove of an Olesian Inquisition entering Redcliffe to deal with the problem of the Magister and the rebel mages.
I wonder why the Inquisition is considered Orlesian if it broke ties with the Orlesian Chantry, was first located in Haven (located in Ferelden territory), was formed by a Pentaghast (a Nevarran) and never swore loyalty to any country...
This is why we don't dump CHA
You say you're male? Then fighting is acceptable. Even if your biology might say otherwise, the Qunari have a term for what this means and clearly the Tamassrans take it into account -- though you might note Iron Bull did not indicate how easily that might occur.
In addition to the above
The oddity, honestly, is that male Qunari can join the Ben-Hassrath, considering that they fall under the priesthood... (traditionally female-dominated, outside of the Ben-Hassrath and the position of Ariqun).
+Interaction with unbound mages where its prudent
There is no portmanteau of Saarebas and Basalit-An, as "dangerous thing worthy of respect" might imply. A bas-saarebas who becomes basalit-an is no longer regarded as saarebas. A mage Grey Warden is not considered saarebas, but a warrior not unlike a member of the Antaam.
Cole didn't detect any Qunari agents, Cole didn't detect any of Solas' agents (or of Solas himself), Cole doesn't even detect Qunari assassins at Skyhold. Cole's readings require an emotional component (grief, pain, loss etc.), it's not the "what number am I thinking of" type of mind-reading. Iron Bull, during Trespasser, provided no such component for Cole to draw from.
Yes, the plan was dependent on not engaging the Inquisitor in open conflict. The Darvaarad was their Hail Mary, which was at the very least meant to stall the Inquisitor long enough for the Anchor to kill them, all while the Viddasala barreled toward Solas.
The interest is not "let's go help the Qunari!", it's "wait, why is there an armored Qunari here with no word from the Triumvirate?"
Why would the Qunari try to talk it out (with a Hissrad who might not even be accompanying the Inquisitor)? The Inquisitor's presence means something has gone horribly wrong, and to their knowledge, the Inquisition are supposed to be Agents of Fen'Harel. Aside from that, they would also have to explain why the Qunari have a militarized force creeping around through the Eluvians, one of which just coincidentally leads to the super-important Exalted Council they were not invited to.
I don’t know what you meant by “This is why we don't dump CHA”, but I’ll just get the relevant quotes out of the way. Emphasis mine.
This was long before BioWare started pandering at the expense of their own art form, and when they still cared about giving honest answers to their fans.
So no, a female can’t just say she is male and be warrior.
Males joining the Ben-Hassrath is not an oddity. It has always been allowed. Female-dominated does not mean female only.
What about interaction with unbound mages? The Qun does not forbid it.
It is your opinion that there is no such thing as a dangerous thing worthy of respect. It is possible that there is, or it is possible that both terms are recognized separately and simultaneously as the dangerous thing being worthy of respect, or a thing worthy of respect that is also dangerous. However, even if these terms contradict somehow in Qunlat, then so what if a saarebas is considered basalit-an? That would only mean that the recognition changes. It does not prove a contradiction in the Qun.
The Grey Warden is considered an enigma to Sten. So that isn’t a good example. The Qunari might still consider Grey Warden mages to be saarebas. After all, saarebas can be used in battle, even females, for they are neither male nor female. They are dangerous things. Tools.
What Cole does or does not detect is not the issue. The issue is how the Triumvirate would approach that unknown. They would cautiously assume that spirit Cole would be able to read Hissrad’s mind, and they would keep him away from Halamshiral, at least until after the attack began. They didn’t, which means either Hissrad was cut out of the loop, or Dragon’s Breath was unsanctioned. If it was sanctioned, then it’s more likely they sent Hissrad back thinking that the Triumvirate was pleased with the Inquisition. Then Cole would only be able to read that Hissrad was being honest.
Their original plan was allegedly not to engage the Inquisition in open conflict, but I’m asking why they engaged in open conflict at the temples if this were the case, and if the plan switched to open conflict to kill the Inquisitor when he arrived at the temple grounds, then why didn’t Hissrad join in and help his fellow Qunari kill the Inquisitor to protect the mission?
The Darvaarad was a Hail Mary? Could have fooled me, since Viddasala didn’t even throw everything she had at them. They didn’t even expect the Inquisitor to make it there in the first place. Viddasala was still trying to complete Dragon’s Breath even though Leliana had already sent word to her contacts in the other halls of power, thus stopping Dragon’s Breath completely. That’s why there were still Qunari in the chamber with the dragon. It wasn’t until that was killed or let go that she turned her attention to Solas. And none of this explains why she used Hissrad at this moment. You wrote in a prior post that Hissrad was only one Qunari and would not have made a difference. So using him here would have made no difference either. And for someone so concerned with delaying the Inquisitor, the Viddasala sure changed her mind quickly after he reached her on the bridge.
Also, I know this is meta in terms of the Qunari alliance path, but from our perspective this is relevant. If you made Iron Bull tal-vashoth, Viddasala calls on him regardless if he is in the party. Why? A Qunari official would never call on a tal-vashoth. They are grey ones who have abandoned the Qun. They are not even bas capable of enlightenment.
Viddasala barreled toward Solas? Is that what she was doing while waiting to see if the Inquisitor would die against the dragon? Is that what she was doing when stopping those times in the ruins to yell orders to Saarath?
The Triumvirate doesn’t need to give word to the Inquisition about Qunari in elven ruins. Even if that had been the case, the concern would be that these Qunari are acting without the Triumvirate’s sanction. But the concern was absolutely regarding the Qunari and that we had to find out who killed them and why they were being attacked by elvhen spirits. This is especially true if you have the alliance.
But Hissrad CAN accompany the Inquisitor, yet they will attack even him on sight and possibly kill him (in battle, which means unconscious). The Qunari who have the alliance would try to talk it out with the Inquisitor if nothing else than to learn the situation from his end and also possibly lure the party into a surprise attack. Unless of course those Qunari were acting outside the Triumvirate and the alliance.
Yes, something went wrong. But what? Asking the Inquisitor how he got there and why he’s there does not jeopardize Dragon’s Breath. There was nothing at the temple that could compromise their mission except for the letter that the karashok (Shock Trooper) had on his person, which he could have kept on his person without anyone knowing.
Yes, that was my point all along. They wrongly thought the Inquisitor was an agent of Fen’Harel since before the Exalted Council began. An ignorance Hissrad could have easily brought enlightenment to had Viddasala been sanctioned and been informed by the Triumvirate. The fact she doesn’t know this proves that she had no connection to Hissrad’s intel, thus no sanction from Par Vollen.
They would not have to explain anything, but if they wanted they could have just told the truth. They were there to eliminate dangerous spirits that attacked their researchers first. They were there to understand the magic involved and destroy it.
Who said Qunari were creeping around through the eluvians? For all the Inquisitor knew the Qunari reached those temples by land and discovered the eluvians when they got there. They are not the ones who created the eluvian network. That Celene kept an eluvian in the Winter Palace is no fault of theirs. That the network opened to Celene’s eluvian is exactly a coincidence as far as the Qunari are concerned.
This was long before BioWare started pandering at the expense of their own art form, and when they still cared about giving honest answers to their fans.
Males joining the Ben-Hassrath is not an oddity. It has always been allowed. Female-dominated does not mean female only.
All posts dated 2010, with the posts regarding Aqun-Athlok being dated 2015. It was retconned, as Gaider would later admit. New lore trumps old. Your personal opinion regarding the matter is wholly irrelevant.
As for the Ben-Hassrath, the oddity is derived from the fact that males are normally barred from the priesthood, which the Ben-Hassrath would fall under. The organization itself is an exception to a rule, as Gaider stated.
What about interaction with unbound mages? The Qun does not forbid it.
Unbound mages spread demons through their words, and are incapable of controlling themselves (according to the Qun). Even collared and bound Saarebas are not supposed to speak with their Arvaarad. Thus, appropriate exceptions must be made when dealing with Bas-Saarebas cannot be avoided, and said Bas-Saarebas cannot be subjugated. So, drop the pretense that a mage is a mage.
Grey Warden mages would not be considered Saarebas, because Saarebas are not warriors. They are weapons to be wielded, directed, and disposed of when necessary. The Grey Wardens operate under no such methodology.
What Cole does or does not detect is not the issue. The issue is how the Triumvirate would approach that unknown.
They already committed other spies to the Inquisition despite that knowledge. They had agents working in Halamshiral despite that knowledge. They will send assassins after a Tal-Vashoth Iron Bull despite that knowledge. We know well enough how they approach the situation with Cole.
The Darvaarad was a Hail Mary? Could have fooled me, since Viddasala didn’t even throw everything she had at them. They didn’t even expect the Inquisitor to make it there in the first place. Viddasala was still trying to complete Dragon’s Breath even though Leliana had already sent word to her contacts in the other halls of power, thus stopping Dragon’s Breath completely. That’s why there were still Qunari in the chamber with the dragon. It wasn’t until that was killed or let go that she turned her attention to Solas. And none of this explains why she used Hissrad at this moment. You wrote in a prior post that Hissrad was only one Qunari and would not have made a difference. So using him here would have made no difference either. And for someone so concerned with delaying the Inquisitor, the Viddasala sure changed her mind quickly after he reached her on the bridge.
Also, I know this is meta in terms of the Qunari alliance path, but from our perspective this is relevant. If you made Iron Bull tal-vashoth, Viddasala calls on him regardless if he is in the party. Why? A Qunari official would never call on a tal-vashoth. They are grey ones who have abandoned the Qun. They are not even bas capable of enlightenment.
If she committed everything at the Darvaarad, she wouldn't have anything left for pursuing Solas.
That is incorrect. If a Tal-Vashoth Iron Bull is not in the party at the time, she will not call on him.
The Triumvirate doesn’t need to give word to the Inquisition about Qunari in elven ruins. Even if that had been the case, the concern would be that these Qunari are acting without the Triumvirate’s sanction. But the concern was absolutely regarding the Qunari and that we had to find out who killed them and why they were being attacked by elvhen spirits. This is especially true if you have the alliance.
But Hissrad CAN accompany the Inquisitor, yet they will attack even him on sight and possibly kill him (in battle, which means unconscious). The Qunari who have the alliance would try to talk it out with the Inquisitor if nothing else than to learn the situation from his end and also possibly lure the party into a surprise attack. Unless of course those Qunari were acting outside the Triumvirate and the alliance.
Yes, something went wrong. But what? Asking the Inquisitor how he got there and why he’s there does not jeopardize Dragon’s Breath. There was nothing at the temple that could compromise their mission except for the letter that the karashok (Shock Trooper) had on his person, which he could have kept on his person without anyone knowing.
Who said Qunari were creeping around through the eluvians? For all the Inquisitor knew the Qunari reached those temples by land and discovered the eluvians when they got there. They are not the ones who created the eluvian network. That Celene kept an eluvian in the Winter Palace is no fault of theirs. That the network opened to Celene’s eluvian is exactly a coincidence as far as the Qunari are concerned.
The corpse of an armored Qunari appears at the Winter Palace. Whatever the Inquisitor might think of the matter, the Qunari are not liked or trusted by any of the major powers in Thedas, including your own advisors. The alliance will not change that. The Qunari will then demonstrate why that mistrust is entirely justified.
So maybe there is an extra sequence of allied Inquisitor of Bull leading you into an ambush, and thus dies earlier in the DLC instead of later. Would it have been cool? Sure. But I don't think it would actually change your opinion of the Qunari plot at all.
Yes, that was my point all along. They wrongly thought the Inquisitor was an agent of Fen’Harel since before the Exalted Council began. An ignorance Hissrad could have easily brought enlightenment to had Viddasala been sanctioned and been informed by the Triumvirate. The fact she doesn’t know this proves that she had no connection to Hissrad’s intel, thus no sanction from Par Vollen.
The Viddasala, with no sanction from Par Vollen, organized a gargantuan operation utilizing members of the Antaam, scholars, engineers, and agents from different branches of the Ben-Hassrath. Said operation continued for months, or longer, without Par Vollen's knowledge, despite the Qunari's practices of strict documentation and reports. In the event that her plan was successful, the Qunari would uphold their alliance with the Inquisition and the Divine by bringing the Viddasala to justice, and not taking advantage of the ensuing chaos by invading the south.
I don't believe it, never will. Respond if you'd like, but I'm done discussing this with you.
The Inquisition does have strong ties to Orlais, most notably to the Emperor/Empress. Forming ties with Orlesian nobles features in many war table missions and let's not forget that the current head of the Orlesian Chantry is a former member of the Inqusition's inner circle.
Ferelden has plenty reason to be wary of the Inquisition's relationship with Orlais, especially with Duke Cyril and others talking about how Orlais should "guide" the Inquisition.
Too bad the Inquisitor couldn't toss that poncy fop over a railing for even suggesting the idea.
All posts dated 2010, with the posts regarding Aqun-Athlok being dated 2015. It was retconned, as Gaider would later admit. New lore trumps old. Your personal opinion regarding the matter is wholly irrelevant.
As for the Ben-Hassrath, the oddity is derived from the fact that males are normally barred from the priesthood, which the Ben-Hassrath would fall under. The organization itself is an exception to a rule, as Gaider stated.
Unbound mages spread demons through their words, and are incapable of controlling themselves (according to the Qun). Even collared and bound Saarebas are not supposed to speak with their Arvaarad. Thus, appropriate exceptions must be made when dealing with Bas-Saarebas cannot be avoided, and said Bas-Saarebas cannot be subjugated. So, drop the pretense that a mage is a mage.
Grey Warden mages would not be considered Saarebas, because Saarebas are not warriors. They are weapons to be wielded, directed, and disposed of when necessary. The Grey Wardens operate under no such methodology.
They already committed other spies to the Inquisition despite that knowledge. They had agents working in Halamshiral despite that knowledge. They will send assassins after a Tal-Vashoth Iron Bull despite that knowledge. We know well enough how they approach the situation with Cole.
If she committed everything at the Darvaarad, she wouldn't have anything left for pursuing Solas.
That is incorrect. If a Tal-Vashoth Iron Bull is not in the party at the time, she will not call on him.
The corpse of an armored Qunari appears at the Winter Palace. Whatever the Inquisitor might think of the matter, the Qunari are not liked or trusted by any of the major powers in Thedas, including your own advisors. The alliance will not change that. The Qunari will then demonstrate why that mistrust is entirely justified.
So maybe there is an extra sequence of allied Inquisitor of Bull leading you into an ambush, and thus dies earlier in the DLC instead of later. Would it have been cool? Sure. But I don't think it would actually change your opinion of the Qunari plot at all.
The Viddasala, with no sanction from Par Vollen, organized a gargantuan operation utilizing members of the Antaam, scholars, engineers, and agents from different branches of the Ben-Hassrath. Said operation continued for months, or longer, without Par Vollen's knowledge, despite the Qunari's practices of strict documentation and reports. In the event that her plan was successful, the Qunari would uphold their alliance with the Inquisition and the Divine by bringing the Viddasala to justice, and not taking advantage of the ensuing chaos by invading the south.
I don't believe it, never will. Respond if you'd like, but I'm done discussing this with you.
The Qun does seem to have a nasty case of having their forces go rogue. Koslun would roll in his grave, if the daffy oxmen believed in digging them.
I think one of the few good things that came from Trespasser is the fact that corruption was shown to be capable of hitting even the Qunari. Granted, Viddasala's motives were Quny, but she violated the command system and broke the Qun in order to advance it. No one knows what debates were waged in Par Vollen, but I suspect it had to do with the Ariqun not having proper oversight of her branches. Hopefully they addressed their radicalism as well.
Well, you just posted a strawman, so I don't blame you for not believing that. It's not my claim. The claim is this...
I will say this: That was not a strawman, that was basically the gist of it. Among those working for the Viddasala were members of the Antaam (do defend against spirits you might say, but said spirits were only activated just ahead of the Inquisitor's arrival), engineers (to construct the scaffolding in the mines, and build the system that allowed raw Lyrium to be collected and processed without the Qunari risking contact), scholars, and members of the "Dangerous Questions" branch of the Ben-Hassrath (working as spies and saboteurs within the Inquisition and around Thedas). Viddasala's continued work (if she were rogue, that is), would require a prolonged ignorance on the Triumvirate's part, even when many separate organizations are being put to task on the same project. In addition, many of the participants of said project had grievances with the plan and with their work:improper documentation, the utilization of Saarebas and their consumption of Lyrium, the treatment of Ataashi etc. The Viddasala would not only need to fabricate a reason for pulling so much labor, but she would also have to manage a complete suppression of communication.
And, in the event that she did in fact manage to do all of this, the question of how the Qunari would react if she succeeded.
I think one of the few good things that came from Trespasser is the fact that corruption was shown to be capable of hitting even the Qunari. Granted, Viddasala's motives were Quny, but she violated the command system and broke the Qun in order to advance it. No one knows what debates were waged in Par Vollen, but I suspect it had to do with the Ariqun not having proper oversight of her branches. Hopefully they addressed their radicalism as well.
I will say this: That was not a strawman, that was basically the gist of it. Among those working for the Viddasala were members of the Antaam (do defend against spirits you might say, but said spirits were only activated just ahead of the Inquisitor's arrival), engineers (to construct the scaffolding in the mines, and build the system that allowed raw Lyrium to be collected and processed without the Qunari risking contact), scholars, and members of the "Dangerous Questions" branch of the Ben-Hassrath (working as spies and saboteurs within the Inquisition and around Thedas). Viddasala's continued work (if she were rogue, that is), would require a prolonged ignorance on the Triumvirate's part, even when many separate organizations are being put to task on the same project. In addition, many of the participants of said project had grievances with the plan and with their work:improper documentation, the utilization of Saarebas and their consumption of Lyrium, the treatment of Ataashi etc. The Viddasala would not only need to fabricate a reason for pulling so much labor, but she would also have to manage a complete suppression of communication.
And, in the event that she did in fact manage to do all of this, the question of how the Qunari would react if she succeeded.
Yeah, this is why I wouldn't believe a single word anyone in the Qunari leadership says. They can claim all they like that they disavow this and that, but in the end, if their "rogues" succeeded in their scheming, they would likely be unapologetic to the victims of their agents and be satisfied with the results. Yeah, no one approved of the Arishok trying to take siege of Kirkwall. Well, I wouldn't want to approve of a failure either.
I will say this: That was not a strawman, that was basically the gist of it. Among those working for the Viddasala were members of the Antaam (do defend against spirits you might say, but said spirits were only activated just ahead of the Inquisitor's arrival), engineers (to construct the scaffolding in the mines, and build the system that allowed raw Lyrium to be collected and processed without the Qunari risking contact), scholars, and members of the "Dangerous Questions" branch of the Ben-Hassrath (working as spies and saboteurs within the Inquisition and around Thedas). Viddasala's continued work (if she were rogue, that is), would require a prolonged ignorance on the Triumvirate's part, even when many separate organizations are being put to task on the same project. In addition, many of the participants of said project had grievances with the plan and with their work:improper documentation, the utilization of Saarebas and their consumption of Lyrium, the treatment of Ataashi etc. The Viddasala would not only need to fabricate a reason for pulling so much labor, but she would also have to manage a complete suppression of communication.
And, in the event that she did in fact manage to do all of this, the question of how the Qunari would react if she succeeded.
But you have to pay attention to what each branch does and what each commander does. Now, if you didn't mean that as a strawman, then you need to seriously look at whether or not Viddasala using every tool at her disposal in her position could pull off Dragon's Breath without the Triumvirate knowing anything about it. I can prove this is the case.
The soldiers of the Antaam. Viddasala does not have direct command over them, but she can request their presence if they are needed to keep Ben-Hassrath safe while they conduct their work. This is a legitimate function of the Antaam. From here it is a simple matter for Viddasala to tell those members that anyone not of the Qun who trespasses ( 
) in areas where the Qunari are stationed are enemies who must be killed. She also may have told them flat out that the Inquisition had betrayed the alliance and was working with the Agent of Fen'Harel who attacked them and awoke the demons sleeping in the temples. However, my guess is that most of the Antaam were not told anything by Viddasala. After all, why would the initial Qunari go to Halamshiral if the mission was supposed to remain secret and the Inquisition was the enemy? He likely went there for help, either from the allied Inquisition, or just for the sake of having a chance to survive through the charity of bas. But we do know that the last karashok in the temple had orders to move troops to the temples near the eluvian leading to the palace. So Viddasala likely told that Qunari that the Inquisition was working with the Agent of Fen'Harel against the Qunari in violation of the alliance. Jerran also confirms that Viddasala had been spreading that misconception.
The Ben-Hassrath. Viddasala holds direct command over her branch of the Ben-Hassrath, which is the part that fights magic (Dangerous Purpose). Finding, studying, stopping. So she told her own followers whatever she wanted, and they were bound by the Qun to obey her (except in extreme circumstances, which I will get to later). So that takes care of them. She also had control over saarebas. What she did not have control over were those Ben-Hassrath who spy and gather information. This is why she did not know what Hissrad knew, and it is why I have written that it makes no sense for Hissrad to have followed her order even if she had been sanctioned. She is not his commanding officer. Anyway, the spies in Halamshiral and the Inquisition could have just been members of her group who were repurposed to act as spies and get everything into place. Her branch was also in charge of reeducation, so those spies may have been reeducated viddathari. This way, Viddasala did not need to work with Hissrad's branch, and the gaatlok would be placed as she planned. But even in this case some members of her group questioned her actions, specifically in feeding lyrium to saarebas. She had to write a letter reassuring these followers that what she was doing was legitimate and necessary under the Qun. Jerran, having not been a brainwashed sheep, knew that Viddasala was acting outside of the Qun, which is why he informs the Inquisitor of her plot. He knew she was rogue, out of her mind, and trying to start a war with the south. A war that wasn't sanctioned. Also notice that the letter to apprehend Jerran stated to capture him for reeducation, and yet we find him dead. Obviously done to silence him.
Then we have the Arigena. She and her branch are tasked with creating gaatlok. Yet Viddasala was making her own. This is because gaatlok has a lengthy creation time. Viddasala had found a new way to make it quickly. Again she repurposed her agents to do this. Some of them even kept messing it up, as the instruction note indicates. Now, she probably did get some gaatlok from the Arigena, but not as much as she needed to cause chaos in the south. Hence why she needed to make her own. Plus, asking for too much from the Arigena would have raised suspicions.
Lastly, we have the Ariqun. She is the Viddasala's commanding officer. Any issues with the Antaam or problems facing Viddasala's agents would have only been brought to one woman, the Ariqun. So long as Viddasala could lie to the Ariqun and prevent information from reaching her, the plan would go as intended. It seems this worked, as the Viddasala kept the Ariqun in the dark about Dragon's Breath while also providing information that made it seem like all was well. The Ariqun was never given any reason to doubt the Viddasala. Yet Viddasala was hording magical artifacts instead of destroying them, and she even had red lyrium being examined. There is also a note from a guard stating that Viddasala's agents were not properly documenting the locations of artifacts found.
So it is entirely possible that Viddasala kept her one and only commanding officer in the dark, and made her requests appear to be legitimate endeavors that did not involve Qunari allies.
That came across to me as one particular agent being incompetent (Or just trolling the qunari responsible for archiving them)There is also a note from a guard stating that Viddasala's agents were not properly documenting the locations of artifacts found.
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