190 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

It was impossible for the Protheans to have created the Asari.

 

They only made contact with the Asari 50,000 years before the start of ME1, which is practically yesterday in geologic terms (for comparison...anatomically modern humans have been around for close to 200,000 years). For the Protheans to have seeded Thessia with eezo, creating an entire planet of  species that has evolved natural biotic ability, they would have to have been involved in Thessia's history for millions of years, not thousands.

 

The artifacts in the Temple of Athame also imply that the Asari worshiped the goddess prior to Prothean contact, since her portrayal shifts from one that looks Asari to one that looks Prothean on different relics. The implication was that the earlier Asari relic was older and pre-dated Prothean contact. Since the Asari were both creating art and practicing a religion prior to contact with the Protheans, they were also sapient prior to Prothean contact.

 

The Protheans were in the process of uplifting the Asari prior to getting zapped by the Reapers (similar to the Salarians with the Krogan), but there is no indication that the Asari were a genetically engineered species, like the Hanar.

[SNascimento]

It was impossible for the Protheans to have created the Asari.

I didn't mean to say they did, only that they genetically modfied the Asari to suit their needs. 

[ZipZap2000]

It was impossible for the Protheans to have created the Asari. They only made contact with the Asari 50,000 years before the start of ME1, which is practically yesterday in geologic terms (for comparison...anatomically modern humans have been around for close to 200,000 years), and the artifacts in the Temple of Athame imply that the Asari worshiped the goddess prior to Prothean contact, since her portrayal shifts from one that looks Asari to one that looks Prothean on different relics. The implication was that the earlier Asari relic was older and pre-dated Prothean contact. Since the Asari were both creating art and practicing a religion prior to contact with the Protheans, they were also sapient prior to Prothean contact.

The Protheans were in the process of uplifting the Asari prior to getting zapped by the Reapers (similar to the Salarians with the Krogan), but there is no indication that the Asari were a genetically engineered species, like the Hanar.

As I said in the post previous which you may have missed Javik is quite firm on the fact the Asari were struggling to count their own toes. Having problems with concepts like mathematics would leave them in no position to develop something as complicated as organised monotheistic religion.

Let alone masonry and construction to build temples over Prothean relics. I like the Asari as much as anyone but they were clearly 'pushed' as Javik put it. To give them a shot against the Reapers.

[SardaukarElite]

As I said in the post previous which you may have missed Javik is quite firm on the fact the Asari were struggling to count their own toes.

 

You don't have to step outside of these forums to find people who are quite firm about a number of beliefs that are entirely erroneous. Javik isn't an expert historian or biologist, and he's rather fond of winding people up. 

[ZipZap2000]

You don't have to step outside of these forums to find people who are quite firm about a number of beliefs that are entirely erroneous. Javik isn't an expert historian or biologist, and he's rather fond of winding people up.

Which is why I buy into it.

It was all said with vitriolic emphasis on the facts. He was rubbing it in to Liara in a big way.

[Han Shot First]

I didn't mean to say they did, only that they genetically modfied the Asari to suit their needs. 

 

There is no indication however that the Protheans did genetically modify the Asari. None of Javik's dialogue indicates that the Protheans were involved in genetic engineering on Thessia. He says the Protheans deflected an asteroid, protected Thessia from another warlike expansionist species, and taught the primitive Asari mathematics, but he never says they genetically modified them.

 

 

As I said in the post previous which you may have missed Javik is quite firm on the fact the Asari were struggling to count their own toes. Having problems with concepts like mathematics would leave them in no position to develop something as complicated as organised monotheistic religion.

Let alone masonry and construction to build temples over Prothean relics. I like the Asari as much as anyone but they were clearly 'pushed' as Javik put it. To give them a shot against the Reapers.

 

Javik isn't necessarily an entirely reliable narrator, particularly since he's effectively trolling when he says it. Is it that the whole truth or is he turning up the hyperbole and stretching a truth? Considering the Asari were creating art and had an organized religion prior to Prothean contact, it's far more likely that he's exaggerating. The Protheans may have taught the Asari mathematics or gave them the concept of zero, but it's doubtful they had been unable to count before meeting Protheans. Any species that couldn't count also wouldn't have progressed to the point that they had anything resembling a civilization or culture.

 

We know the Asari had an organized religion prior to Prothean contact because the relics shift from a portrayal of Athame as Asari to Athame as vaguely Prothean. It's even commented on by the characters, with Javik attributing the shift to Prothean contact. 

 

It also makes a certain amount of sense when you think about. In the real world when primitive cultures have come into contact with more advanced ones, and possibly mistook members from that more technologically advanced civilization for deities or mythical beings...they always mistake them for beings that already exist within their folklore, rather than completely new beings. The Aztecs for example may have mistook Hernan Cortez for Quetzalcoatl, a god they worshiped prior to contact with the Spaniards, rather than Quetzalcoatl being birthed into their mythology by Spanish contact.

[Mechler]

Define art and organized religion. Cavemen had art and religion and even small statues. But they were still cavemen.

[Guanxii]

I like the idea of sticking to riffing on existing real life species as jumping off points as they have always done because chances are whatever they create will not feel out of place. What I don't want is creature designs which stick out like a soar thumb particularly those of the Jar Jar open quotes comedic variety which bring down the tone of the entire series.

 

In not pushing the boat out too far the universe is more cohesive and strangely somehow more believable so I'd rather not not rock the boat, e.g.

 

Krogans are rhino/t-rex hybrid people.

Drell are lizard people

Turians are bird men.

Salarians are grey aliens.

Asari are star war blue aliens

Volus are mole people

Quarians are purple elves

 

Potential ideas for new species I'd like to see explored which might be in-keeping with the established universe:

 

Bear/Gorilla hybrid People - There has never been a fury species yet so perhaps a Wookie inspired species might fit the bill.

 

More Dinosaur people maybe mesh a few more different varieties together... always thought stegosaurus bone spikes were cool 

 

Cat people (take feline elements like the Na'vi & be subtle - don't just stick a cat head on a human body like Bethesda's lame kajit species) with different randomly generated fur patterns e.g. leopard spots, stripes, etc.

 

Alligator/tortoise hybrid people

 

Shark/dolphin people maybe add in some slight xenomorph elements to the head (not mandibles) if necessary to make it more convincingly alien

 

A predator inspired race typically not seen outside of armor and don't communicate with outsiders.

 

The only alien trope I really can't stand is snail eyes.

[ZipZap2000]

There is no indication however that the Protheans did genetically modify the Asari. None of Javik's dialogue indicates that the Protheans were involved in genetic engineering on Thessia. He says the Protheans deflected an asteroid, protected Thessia from another warlike expansionist species, and taught the primitive Asari mathematics, but he never says they genetically modified them.



Javik isn't necessarily an entirely reliable narrator, particularly since he's effectively trolling when he says it. Is it that the whole truth or is he turning up the hyperbole and stretching a truth? Considering the Asari were creating art and had an organized religion prior to Prothean contact, it's far more likely that he's exaggerating. The Protheans may have taught the Asari mathematics or gave them the concept of zero, but it's doubtful they had been unable to count before meeting Protheans. Any species that couldn't count also wouldn't have progressed to the point that they had anything resembling a civilization or culture.

We know the Asari had an organized religion prior to Prothean contact because the relics shift from a portrayal of Athame as Asari to Athame as vaguely Prothean. It's even commented on by the characters, with Javik attributing the shift to Prothean contact.

Hit the Paragon prompt when Liara is about to explode.

He outright says the Protheans thought the Asari had the most potential so they were "Pushed" when necessary.

At best they taught them over generations but if their lifespan hasn't been altered that's 50 generations at the absolute most. Which would mean mathematics and biotics couldn't have been all that far off. Which would make their intervention pointless.

Athane herself changed over time to look Asari which would indicate that successive generations were short lived enough to forget what she looked like.

I accept your argument its a valid position in the absence of anything solid. I just don't think Javik was exaggerating. In the end we can't pretend to REALLY know either way.


That's up to Bioware.

[SNascimento]

That's up to Bioware.

I like that they didn't explain it and left it up to the players to reach their own conclusion. Of course, those are subjective and we can't really know for sure, but you don't need to know everything.

That's actually one thing I'd change for Andromeda. Instead of having an codex entry for everything that explain stuff in details, let the world building be done more naturally and slowly.

[ZipZap2000]

I like that they didn't explain it and left it up to the players to reach their own conclusion. Of course, those are subjective and we can't really know for sure, but you don't need to know everything.

That's actually one thing I'd change for Andromeda. Instead of having an codex entry for everything that explain stuff in details, let the world building be done more naturally and slowly.

There's a lot of fun in figuring things out yourself. I loved that when I was growing up in novels the antagonist wasn't always explained thoroughly. Your own imagination takes you where you want to go with them.

Certainly a nice touch.

[Heimdall]

There's a lot of fun in figuring things out yourself. I loved that when I was growing up in novels the antagonist wasn't always explained thoroughly. Your own imagination takes you where you want to go with them.

Certainly a nice touch.

Eh, I on the other hand love detailed codex entries, they let the devs flesh out parts of the alien societies they never have the opportunity to put on screen.  That being said,I think Bioware needs to work harder to put more of it on screen.

[ZipZap2000]

Eh, I on the other hand love detailed codex entries, they let the devs flesh out parts of the alien societies they never have the opportunity to put on screen. That being said,I think Bioware needs to work harder to put more of it on screen.

Its gotta ba hard as hell to find a middle ground for everyone. I don't mind the codex its more useful than most people realise.

Indoctrination was 1st explained to me through it when I first discovered ME2. Id assumed it was more supernatural.

[Vortex13]

I really want to see a focus on non-humanoids. I know that the animation problems are difficult but I would much rather see something like this:

 

 

Than this:

 

 

 

 

 

or something like this:

 

 

instead of this:

 

 

[Sartoz]

                                                                                                  <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>

 

Well, OP, I' unsure what you expect.

 

Aliens in this series have worked out very well, imo. To alienize aliens even more is going to extreme and won't work out.

For example:

How much of a common base would there be with no bipedal, non ogygen breathers and humans? Or, go another route and have monster types (IE: the Swamp Thing, Purple Tentacle methane breather or Flying Reptile Snake people  and so on). Go even further and say we contact a space faring large Centaur like quadrupeds that like meat... any meat..including humans.

 

Imo, the more extreme the alien the less commonality with humans = little to no  interaction.  So, in the game world, what would you do with them? What value can these beings bring to the game (besides looking extreme)?

 

My view is that Bio devs will create aliens that can interact with humanity, allows for good story telling and for character bonding and romance (anyone that likes to romance an extreme alien needs a shrink)

[Mechler]

I like the idea of sticking to riffing on existing real life species as jumping off points as they have always done because chances are whatever they create will not feel out of place. What I don't want is creature designs which stick out like a soar thumb particularly those of the Jar Jar open quotes comedic variety which bring down the tone of the entire series.

 

In not pushing the boat out too far the universe is more cohesive and strangely somehow more believable so I'd rather not not rock the boat, e.g.

 

Krogans are rhino/t-rex hybrid people.

Drell are lizard people

Turians are bird men.

Salarians are grey aliens.

Asari are star war blue aliens

Volus are mole people

Quarians are purple elves

 

Potential ideas for new species I'd like to see explored which might be in-keeping with the established universe:

 

Bear/Gorilla hybrid People - There has never been a fury species yet so perhaps a Wookie inspired species might fit the bill.

 

More Dinosaur people maybe mesh a few more different varieties together... always thought stegosaurus bone spikes were cool 

 

Cat people (take feline elements like the Na'vi & be subtle - don't just stick a cat head on a human body like Bethesda's lame kajit species) with different randomly generated fur patterns e.g. leopard spots, stripes, etc.

 

Alligator/tortoise hybrid people

 

Shark/dolphin people maybe add in some slight xenomorph elements to the head (not mandibles) if necessary to make it more convincingly alien

 

A predator inspired race typically not seen outside of armor and don't communicate with outsiders.

 

The only alien trope I really can't stand is snail eyes.

 

 

Yeah its odd that we didn't get any furry aliens. You'd think they would exist. I wouldn't mind if the furry ended up being a giant sentient cat/dog whatever. Like Red XIII in Final Fantasy VII. I know it gets annoying that I keep bringing it up all the time in 97 and as it happens even contemporary games are behind it in some regards. Kinda embarrassing.

 

I would also support shark/dolphin people. Or just generally humanoid aquatic people. Alien mermaids. as the new asari.

And maybe a very small race. Little gremiins like the Asura in Guild Wars 2. Make them extremely bloodthirsty for added fun.

[Vortex13]

I would also support shark/dolphin people. Or just generally humanoid aquatic people.

 

Why would they have to be humanoid though? A species that developed underwater for practically their entire evolutionary existence wouldn't suddenly develop two legs and two arms the moment it hit the modern era; geologically speaking. 

 

I mean look at the Hanar, they didn't develop a humanoid form because it would be highly impractical given their development. 

 

 

As far as an aquatic based species, I always liked the Liir from Sword of the Stars:

 

 

A dolphin/whale species with telekinetic and telepathic abilities that achieved space flight and interstellar travel based around their anatomy, instead of being designed as human-like. Their space craft are filled with seawater, and they wear environmental suits when operating in a vacuum or on land. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Giantdeathrobot]

Eh, I on the other hand love detailed codex entries, they let the devs flesh out parts of the alien societies they never have the opportunity to put on screen.  That being said,I think Bioware needs to work harder to put more of it on screen.

 

Yeah, the Codex can stay, they just need to put more work on translating that information on screen.

[Vortex13]

Yeah, the Codex can stay, they just need to put more work on translating that information on screen.

 

 

That and bring back Chris L'Etoile. You want to see aliens as aliens, look no further, in fact he is the one behind all the 'alien' elements from ME 1 & 2. Once he left we saw a major dip in the non-human diversity of the universe (IMO).

[AlleyD]

Anyone interested in the process of conjuring up Aliens, or critiquing Bioware for their designs, I would recommend they take a look at a book called "Evolving The Alien" by Iain Stewart and Jack Cohen. It was also published in the UK with the title "What Does A Martian Look Like". The authors are highly respected designers of alien beings, ecology and environments and have collaborated, or advised some of the more Hard Science type worlds in Sci Fi fiction for over 40 years. The authors' backgrounds are in mathematics and biology, and they combine these perspectives into the process of creating their eco systems.

 

I suspect that Chris L'Etoile may have taken some influence from them, if he is the main creative mind behind ME2 "Legion" that is. 

 

 

I have zero issues with the humanoid type shapes applied to ME aliens. While it is highly unlikely an alien to evolve so closely to our own evolutionary solution, there would be certain similarities. The aliens would have needed to evolve the capacity to use tools, so would need a solution similar to our own. Also, they would have evolved on land based environments due to the laws of thermodynamics and properties of water making it impossible for the first stage in tech evolution to occur. The Hanar are the most improbable alien design, but the Prothean uplift arc compensates for their impossibility.

[Kabooooom]

Define art and organized religion. Cavemen had art and religion and even small statues. But they were still cavemen.

It's also worth noting that these cavemen were us - as in they were anatomically modern humans. We didnt evolve a more complex brain since then - it is just that concepts as advanced as art and religion or mathematics develop slowly and are passed down culturally.

The same was probably true of the Asari. The Protheans taught them math, language, agriculture - this is not the same as first genetically engineering them to be able to process such concepts.

And that was basically what Han was saying, and I agree - teaching is not equal to modifying or creating the Asari species, and the timeline doesn't fit either.

[AlleyD]

It's also worth noting that these cavemen were us - as in they were anatomically modern humans. We didnt evolve a more complex brain since then - it is just that concepts as advanced as art and religion or mathematics develop slowly and are passed down culturally.

The same was probably true of the Asari. The Protheans taught them math, language, agriculture - this is not the same as first genetically engineering them to be able to process such concepts.

And that was basically what Han was saying, and I agree - teaching is not equal to modifying or creating the Asari species, and the timeline doesn't fit either.

 

So very true, our natural intelligence hasn't increased from the start of our species, what has evolved is human Extelligence.

 

Wikipedia Definition

 

Extelligence is a term coined by Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen in their 1997 book Figments of Reality. They define it as the cultural capital that is available to us in the form of external media (e.g. tribal legends, folklore, nursery rhymes, books, videotapes, CD-ROMs, etc.)

 

They contrast extelligence with intelligence, or the knowledge and cognitive processes within the brain. Furthermore, they regard the ‘complicity’ of extelligence and intelligence as fundamental to the development of consciousness in evolutionary terms for both the species and the individual. ‘Complicity’ is a combination of complexity and simplicity, and Cohen and Stewart use it to express the interdependent relationship between knowledge-inside-one's-head and knowledge-outside-one's-head that can be readily accessed.

 

Although Cohen's and Stewart's respective disciplines are biology and mathematics, their description of the complicity of intelligence and extelligence is in the tradition of Jean Piaget, Belinda Dewar and David A. Kolb. Philosophers, notably Popper, have also considered the relation between subjective knowledge (which he calls world 2), objective knowledge (world 1) and the knowledge represented by man-made artifacts (world 3).

 

One of Cohen and Stewart's contributions is the way they relate, through the idea of complicity, the individual to the sum of human knowledge. From the mathematics of complexity and game theory, they use the idea of phase space and talk about extelligence space. There is a total phase space (intelligence space) for the human race, which consists of everything that can be known and represented. Within this there is a smaller set of what is known at any given time. Cohen and Stewart propose the idea that each individual can access the parts of the extelligence space with which their intelligence is complicit.

In other words, there has to be, at some level, an appreciation of what is out there and what it means. Much of this ‘appreciation’ falls into the category of tacit knowledge^[1] and social and cultural learning.^[2] As an example, a dictionary may contain definitions of many words. But only those definitions that can be understood by the reader.

[Mechler]

Why would they have to be humanoid though? A species that developed underwater for practically their entire evolutionary existence wouldn't suddenly develop two legs and two arms the moment it hit the modern era; geologically speaking. 

 

I mean look at the Hanar, they didn't develop a humanoid form because it would be highly impractical given their development. 

 

 

As far as an aquatic based species, I always liked the Liir from Sword of the Stars:

 

 

A dolphin/whale species with telekinetic and telepathic abilities that achieved space flight and interstellar travel based around their anatomy, instead of being designed as human-like. Their space craft are filled with seawater, and they wear environmental suits when operating in a vacuum or on land. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Well humanoid species are probably easier to animate, equip and romance. There's probably a reason why we don't see that many Hanar in the ME trilogy. I wouldn't mind a weird, inhuman jellyfish in my squad, but that might not happen.

Besides they shouldn't be too much like the Hanar either as people would then accuse Bioware of having no imagination and ripping off previous races.

Ideally this race should be somewhere halfway between humanoid bipeds and hanaar. So yeah, mermaids. Or naga.

 

 

It's also worth noting that these cavemen were us - as in they were anatomically modern humans. We didnt evolve a more complex brain since then - it is just that concepts as advanced as art and religion or mathematics develop slowly and are passed down culturally.

The same was probably true of the Asari. The Protheans taught them math, language, agriculture - this is not the same as first genetically engineering them to be able to process such concepts.

And that was basically what Han was saying, and I agree - teaching is not equal to modifying or creating the Asari species, and the timeline doesn't fit either.

 

Absolutely. The asari may have literally been too stupid to count their toes, but biologically they had everything to reach that level of intelligence.

[Kabooooom]

Furthermore, they regard the ‘complicity’ of extelligence and intelligence as fundamental to the development of consciousness in evolutionary terms for both the species and the individual. .

I agree with most of what they say, but as a comparative neurologist (one who studies the brains and minds of non-human animals compared to humans) I 100% disagree with this and would even go so far as to say modern scientific evidence definitively disproves their position. However, that is if you define consciousness as being synonymous with sentience - something that every neurologist I have ever met agrees with, but that they may disagree with for the sake of their argument. In that case, it is *nearly* semantic, but I would argue that a specific definition is absolutely necessary for studying the brain of species that arent human.

[WarGriffin]

I want Armored WereWolf  Space Marines