305 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

The thing that irked me in DAI was the lack of feminine hairstyles. I wondered if this was about  the political/social idea of gender neutrality. May be totally off base here, but it did bother me.

Here's the thing: DA:I didn't have gender-neutral hair, and it didn't try to. It had lazy hair. They had almost entirely male hairstyles, and that's without getting into anything subjective; most of them either have sideburns, male-pattern baldness, or both, making them exclusively male styles. Then they realized they had almost all male styles, and instead of making a bunch more feminine and neutral ones, they just made them all available to both genders to give the illusion of having many options, which was a lazy and pretty insulting thing to do.

 

Actually having gender-neutral hair would be cool, but that's not what DA:I did. Here's how to do that:

 

1. Make a bunch of good styles for female characters, make a bunch for male characters.

2. Make sure none have sideburns, as they should be in the Facial Hair section.

3. Make sure none (or at least nearly none) of the styles have excessive male-pattern baldness.

4. Have each style available to each gender, after all of that. In other words, do hair how you would if it wasn't going to be available to both genders, then after that, make it available to everyone.

5. Profit.

[fhs33721]

The thing that irked me in DAI was the lack of feminine hairstyles. I wondered if this was about  the political/social idea of gender neutrality. May be totally off base here, but it did bother me.

No, that's just because Bioware has, does and (most likely) will always completely and utterly suck(ed) at doing hair in their games.

[nightscrawl]

The tradition is to have offspring to continue the prestigious line, and no one said all marriages in Tevinter are arranged, but that all big families have to have children. And again, Gaider said Dorian being gay caused the conflict, the only conflict Dorian faces that is specifically connected to his sexual orientation is the one with his father. This is THE conflict. The dialogue I cited is crystal clear, the ritual was to change Dorian's sexual orientation. The ritual is the direct outcome of the conflict.

Just going to post this to add to the discussion...

I will also point out, since Dorian was mentioned, that Dorian's father did not have a problem with his homosexuality in and of itself.

His problem was that Dorian refused to do his duty as the heir of a proud Tevinter family. If Dorian had agreed to marry as intended, and kept his homosexuality as a private conceit, there would have been no conflict. The issue insofar as Tevinter society goes is not with homosexuality in and of itself, but with their insistence on a public standard for any and all members of the upper class -- no one does blood magic, no one is anything other than their perfect ideal, and the polite fiction must always be maintained. Appearances are everything, even if every single person understands that the truth behind closed doors is completely different.

tl;dr: It's not about Tevinter "suddenly being homophobic when the rest of Thedas isn't", it's about Tevinter society's preoccupation with appearances.

Take that as you will.

[fhs33721]

Dorian father wanted from Dorian to have few minutes with female and he can have a grandson what was needed to Dorian family and by Dorian himselfs so he can become magister and have other things what was good for him and for his family survival from extinction

Uhm no, he wanted him to marry a complete stranger, not just to have a quickie with some girls real fast. Also if Dorians father wants grandchildren so much he could just, I don't know..... Get his lazy ass into bed with his wife and produce more children with her instead. Chances are no all of them would be gay.

 

Also, just in case this is a serious post and not an attempt at trolling, I must congratulate you for sucessfully building a time machine back in 1920 and traveling forward to 2016 just to share the way people thought back then with us here on this very forum. I sure hope you didn't leave the milk on your stove back in 1920 unattended.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's pretty hard for me to see Iron Bull's description of the Qun's perspective on Krem to be a retcon when David Gaider talked about it years ago.

[nightscrawl]

We recently hashed this out in the IB thread and it brought me complete mental clarity on this issue...

Many thanks to vertigomez...
 

FYI, the following is just my perception of in-game dialogue: I don't think aqun-athlok is necessarily a direct analogue to being transgender? It's a similar concept, but under the definition we're given, Cassandra would be considered aqun-athlok even though we know she identifies with her biological sex.

Bull is constantly trying to reconcile the way he feels with his obligation to the Qun. He thinks it's the only thing stopping him from going mad, so he tries to justify to himself the worldview he ALREADY has (Krem is a man, Cassandra is a warrior) by citing the Qun.

So, a biologically male tamassran would be considered aqun-athlok, but that's not exactly the same as we would picture being trans. That person would be a woman in Qunari understanding, but I don't think that necessarily means that person has to start wearing whatever clothes are culturally appropriate for Qunari women? It's more like, "you're a woman because you do this thing," but being a woman according to that society would not necessarily equate to dressing or comporting in a feminine manner. Does that make any sense at all?

edit; I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think if they'd decided Bull would make a good tamassran instead of a spy, he would still be allowed to express his everyday Manly McDragon self. His society would just consider him a woman.

Lol "Manly McDragon."

Yes, that was helpful, thanks.

Unfortunately in this case, the aqun-athlok is presented as a concept in regard to Krem, who is trans, so it's a bit difficult to separate the two. Your remark that, "if they'd decided Bull would make a good tamassran instead of a spy," makes the Qun seem a lot more flexible than it appears, particularly as Sten presents it to the player.

However, I will say that that view does make a lot of sense. Let's say that you noticed a child is highly analytical and mentally organized. Obviously, you might want to train that child to do work in maintaining the Qunari breeding program. But this child is "male," and that is a "woman's" role. What to do? Well, if that child is going to be trained in that role because their natural abilities are a match for it, then they are a "woman." As Fenris tells us, the Qunari waste nothing, so I wouldn't be surprised if they went through some mental gymnastics to have their cake and eat it too in regard to gender roles. But I do wish it had been presented in that way, rather than as a way that enabled Bull to be accepting of Krem, or Cassandra, or hell, even a fem warrior Inquisitor.

Now, I'm not one of those to cry "retcon!" when new things are presented that might not completely jive with my previous view of something, but I do think it is one failing of the Dragon Age method of presenting cultures so subjectively, even going as far as having a majority of the codex presented subjectively. Or, you could look at that as a benefit, since it makes the setting seem more real for our character. They only really know what is presented to them, and in this case, the PC's primary interaction with Qunari is through Iron Bull.

Glad I could help!

As far as 'mental gymnastics to have their cake and eat it too' - that is precisely right! As Gaider said, "it involves a weird sort of willful ignorance thing the Qunari are very good at." If a mage is basalit-an, they're not really a mage. They're just a worthy opponent who happens to have phenomenal cosmic power. shrruuuuug

In its own way, the Qun is incredibly flexible. Bull's entry in WoT2 is rife with this. After he suffers his breakdown in Seheron, he turns himself into the reeducators so that he may be "repaired or destroyed". The Qunari waste nothing. The book says, "Hissrad's mind remained sharp--too sharp, in fact, for the treacherous island of Seheron, where it could so easily shatter. He would be dangerous as a police agent, defiant as a soldier, and wasted as a laborer." So it's not without precedent for those in charge to say... 'you know what, this role doesn't suit you after all, THIS is who you truly are. Nope, don't question it, we know what we're doing this time. Sshhhh.' According the that line of thought, the Qun is perfect but people are imperfect, so when you get fitted to the "wrong" role it's not because the Qun is flawed... it's 'cause your tamassran screwed up when she decided you'd be a great dogwalker.

Sten and the Arishok both make it clear that they're in no position to explain the Qun to anyone. Another sign of Bull's inclinations. He has no problem trying to explain things that are explicitly not within his jurisdiction to explain. He's not a tamassran, so according to the Qun he has no business labeling Krem or anyone else aqun-athlok. But he wants to, because he believes one thing in his heart and needs to tell himself that his thoughts align with the Qun.

And yeah, it's all a bit of a subjective mess. Like when spirits (or are they demons?) and abominations (is that the same thing as being possessed?) come up. Bunch of stuff we have to interpret through the cultural lens of the characters who reside in this world.

[Lady Artifice]

To me Bull, Cole, Vivienne and Sera really lack a bit in their reasoning for helping the Inquisition. But let's give the writer a pass and shut our eyes on that part.

 

Hardly necessary. Not wanting the world to end is a pretty solid motivation for being as helpful in the effort against that very thing happening as one possibly can. If you think that reason lacks a certain plausibility, I'd suggest less assuming fault with the writers and more reassessing your own parameters for what qualifies as a good reason to help. 

[nightscrawl]

^ Both Sera and Vivienne have dialogue right after their recruitment that explains it a bit more. Sera wants to discover deeper meaning (in addition to fixing the hole in the sky), and Vivienne sees it as an opportunity.

 

Bull is completely upfront about being in the Qun, what his job entails, and so on. I really don't see anything lacking at all. You can certainly choose to not trust him, despite his seeming "honesty," since he just told you that's he's a spy and not recruit him based on that.

 

And Cole just wants to "help." If you consider that he's a spirit and don't have a personal problem with that, that seems perfectly reasonable to me. Even a non-mage Inquisitor can think that spirits are inscrutable enough that just wanting to help can be enough. But again, if this doesn't contradict your RP vis-a-vis spirits. If it does, then by all means, reject his offer.

 

All of them have personal motivations. But as Lady Artifice points out, saving the world is reason enough. Even Solas wants to save the world because he wants things to go according to his plan, not someone else's, in addition to his other motivations.

[KaiserShep]

Again, Tevinter doesn't care about that, as long as you're still willing to "close your eyes and think of the Imperium"  and create a little Parvus to carry on the bloodline.

 

I suppose that's really not important at that point, because in the end, it's still betrayal and being violated magically anyhow. Splitting hairs over whether or not it alters Dorian's sexuality doesn't really change that. 

[Biotic Apostate]

I hardly think Halward would be more approving if Dorian took up with a soporati woman.  or an elf.  He didn't have a "candidate" lined up.  He had a brood mare.  And Dorian was to be the stud.  That was the point of the marriage.  That is what Halward wanted.  Just as he did as his father wanted and married Dorian's mother.  

 

If Dorian was into women, it would have changed some of the details of the conflict.  But the underlying cause would not have changed:  Dorian was opposed to what Tevinter society had become, and certainly didn't want to become part of it.  Being gay simply made it more personal for him.

 

 

Oh, I see where he states what the root of the conflict is, but I see it in a different part of the statement:

 

"Dorian's life is one of rebellion"

 

If Dorian agreed to the marriage, he could have gone on having extramarital relationships all he wanted once he had secured an heir.  And as long as he put on the public face of being happily married, no one would have cared.  Even if everyone knew differently.

His father didn't see homosexuality as the main problem, because apparently he had problems grasping the concept of a gay man not wanting to sleep with a woman. I assume if Dorian was straight, he wouldn't rebel that much (or less than he did in the game), because arranged marriage is one thing, actively opposing his nature is a much different problem. I admit I made a mental shortcut. I assume if Dorian was straight, he would date in his circle (given his kinda crappy attitude about slaves), if Dorian dated another mage woman, the conflict would be totally different. His father wanting to "fix" him is what had given the final push, without it, I'm not sure Dorian would have left his live among the higher class. But this is a big what if. The canon is that the ritual was supposed to change his orientation, denial of which was what I disagreed with the most in your posts.

 

"being gay in and of itself doesn’t dictate his personality, the conflict that arose from it"

I know this is not a tale of Tevinter homophobia, but again, from Dorian's point of view, homosexuality is front and center in this conflict. The arranged marriage bases on it, because, again, gay men don't want to have sex with women.

[Biotic Apostate]

It's pretty hard for me to see Iron Bull's description of the Qun's perspective on Krem to be a retcon when David Gaider talked about it years ago.

Also in the same thread, David perfectly described the reaction

"they (the fans) react as if this new information required "retconning" on our end rather than some thought on theirs"

[Biotic Apostate]

THis part I agree with .  A Saarebas is a "dangerous thing"  I don't believe Qunari see mages as either male or female.

So you agree that qunari can interpret being a person differently, something tied to their role, but them interpreting gender differently from the rest of Thedas is so unlikely?

[nightscrawl]

His father didn't see homosexuality as the main problem, because apparently he had problems grasping the concept of a gay man not wanting to sleep with a woman.

I don't think it's necessarily this. His parents "loathe" each other. That is the actual word Dorian uses. I really don't imagine that Dorian's conception was fun for either of them. And you know, for all we know one of his parents could be gay or bi, but they just hide it, like Dorian was supposed to do. Halward's priority (and one also assumes his mother's to a similar degree) in his own life was to continue the Pavus line, ever aiming for that Tevinter perfection. It's not that Halward can't grasp that a gay man wouldn't want to have sex with a woman, but that he doesn't see why Dorian just won't grit his teeth and bear it like he himself did with his own marriage, for the family.

 

Halward's problem is that he doesn't understand that Dorian hates this aspect of Tevinter society (the superiority that leads to this behavior), which is rather absurd since it's partly based on ideals that he taught him (note that I do say "partly"). I absolutely think that Dorian would still have a rebellious personality if he weren't gay. He was a troublesome child from the outset. BUT I certainly won't deny that his view as an outsider (a homosexual who can never openly embrace that aspect of himself) contributed to his view of Tevinter as a whole. But Dorian doesn't want to change Tevinter go he can live openly as a gay man there, he wants to fix it because it's dying... and you know, hopefully other issues personal to himself might be addressed along the way.

 

 

[edit]

Thanks for linking to that tumblr quote, btw. I had wanted to find that a couple of days ago for another Dorian discussion but I wasn't able to even though I had remembered such remarks.

[Biotic Apostate]

I don't think it's necessarily this. His parents "loathe" each other. That is the actual word Dorian uses. I really don't imagine that Dorian's conception was fun for either of them. And you know, for all we know one of his parents could be gay or bi, but they just hide it, like Dorian was supposed to do. Halward's priority (and one also assumes his mother's to a similar degree) in his own life was to continue the Pavus line, ever aiming for that Tevinter perfection. It's not that Halward can't grasp that a gay man wouldn't want to have sex with a woman, but that he doesn't see why Dorian just won't grit his teeth and bear it like he himself did with his own marriage, for the family.

 

Halward's problem is that he doesn't understand that Dorian hates this aspect of Tevinter society (the superiority that leads to this behavior), which is rather absurd since it's partly based on ideals that he taught him (note that I do say "partly"). I absolutely think that Dorian would still have a rebellious personality if he weren't gay. He was a troublesome child from the outset. BUT I certainly won't deny that his view as an outsider (a homosexual who can never openly embrace that aspect of himself) contributed to his view of Tevinter as a whole. But Dorian doesn't want to change Tevinter go he can live openly as a gay man there, he wants to fix it because it's dying... and you know, hopefully other issues personal to himself might be addressed along the way.

 

 

[edit]

Thanks for linking to that tumblr quote, btw. I had wanted to find that a couple of days ago for another Dorian discussion but I wasn't able to even though I had remembered such remarks.

But that's the thing, "why won't Dorian grit his teeth and do it, I did." He thinks that Dorian is exactly in his position and he had no problem with going through with it (even though the marriage is as distant as it can get). But to me at least a straight man in an arranged marriage and a gay man forced to marry a woman are situations that differ tremendously from each other. That's why I believe that the forced heterosexuality is the main issue to Dorian - when it comes to the conflict with his father. As I said, Dorian's problems with Tevinter are different and the conflict between him and his father in not 100% emblematic of his relationship and problems with his land.

 

Also, I would argue that Dorian wanting to live openly without stigma is also very important to him. He wants to fix Tevinter, but what good would it be, if he could find no place for himself there. I think we don't see it so much, because obviously Venatori and the world crumbling take priority. It wouldn't matter how he can live there, if there was nothing left.

 

The links are hard to find, because David deleted his tumblr. Anyway, you're welcome.

[Iakus]

His father didn't see homosexuality as the main problem, because apparently he had problems grasping the concept of a gay man not wanting to sleep with a woman. I assume if Dorian was straight, he wouldn't rebel that much (or less than he did in the game), because arranged marriage is one thing, actively opposing his nature is a much different problem. I admit I made a mental shortcut. I assume if Dorian was straight, he would date in his circle (given his kinda crappy attitude about slaves), if Dorian dated another mage woman, the conflict would be totally different. His father wanting to "fix" him is what had given the final push, without it, I'm not sure Dorian would have left his live among the higher class. But this is a big what if. The canon is that the ritual was supposed to change his orientation, denial of which was what I disagreed with the most in your posts.

 

"being gay in and of itself doesn’t dictate his personality, the conflict that arose from it"

I know this is not a tale of Tevinter homophobia, but again, from Dorian's point of view, homosexuality is front and center in this conflict. The arranged marriage bases on it, because, again, gay men don't want to have sex with women.

He had problems with grasping the concept that his son would not wed and sleep with the woman he had picked out for him.  GIven Dorian's personality, I don't think his being straight or gay would have made a difference.  But his being gay took it beyond a matter of principle and made it more personal for him.  He wanted to decide for himself who he wanted to be with, not have his father or society do it for him.  Being straight would not have changed that.

 

I mean seriously, Aveline and Varric are both straight (or, at the very least, sleep with those of the opposite gender) Do you think anything short of a blood magic ritual could get them to marry and have a kid?  Even if they were ordered to?

 

I'd like to see the citation on what the ritual was supposed to do.  Because even if it was "magical conversion therapy" Halward would still have to contend with his son's rebellious nature and unwillkingness to go along with Tevinter conventions in general.

[Iakus]

So you agree that qunari can interpret being a person differently, something tied to their role, but them interpreting gender differently from the rest of Thedas is so unlikely?

 

I think the Qunari started out being a lot more alien in their mentality than they are now.

[Biotic Apostate]

He had problems with grasping the concept that his son would not wed and sleep with the woman he had picked out for him.  GIven Dorian's personality, I don't think his being straight or gay would have made a difference.  But his being gay took it beyond a matter of principle and made it more personal for him.  He wanted to decide for himself who he wanted to be with, not have his father or society do it for him.  Being straight would not have changed that.

 

I mean seriously, Aveline and Varric are both straight (or, at the very least, sleep with those of the opposite gender) Do you think anything short of a blood magic ritual could get them to marry and have a kid?  Even if they were ordered to?

 

I'd like to see the citation on what the ritual was supposed to do.  Because even if it was "magical conversion therapy" Halward would still have to contend with his son's rebellious nature and unwillkingness to go along with Tevinter conventions in general.

And I say Dorian being gay changed a disagreement with his father into a full blown conflict. It would be totally different if he was straight. But that hardly matters, there is to much "what if" for this argument to be constructive.

 

I and other people gave you quotes already. If you want something in the lines of "My father wanted to magic the gay away and make me crave lady parts" then you won't get it.

 

I think the Qunari started out being a lot more alien in their mentality than they are now.

They weren't more alien, there was just a lot less info on them. Mages were more alien in DAO, the fade was more alien - because there was less lore on it presented in the game. Look through the messages. I gave a quote about the role and gender view the qunari hold, and Jedi Master of Orion gave a quote from Gaider from 2010 (!) which stated exactly the same. If that won't persuade you, nothing will.

[vertigomez]

It's pretty hard for me to see Iron Bull's description of the Qun's perspective on Krem to be a retcon when David Gaider talked about it years ago.

I'm gonna go ahead and crib the post that you quoted, just so everybody can see exactly what Gaider said in 2010.

What Sten meant was that qunari females don't become soldiers-- they don't live by their blade or get trained in combat. This doesn't mean that they are incapable of fighting when the situation calls for it. That would be a very un-feminine thing to do. If a female qunari persisted down such a path, however, that would call into question their gender-- socially (not biologically, which is something that really only concerns the Tamassrans) qunari are identified by their role. A qunari that fights is a male, for all intents and purposes. Every other qunari would simply refuse to see it otherwise.

This doesn't mean that qunari females are free to be males, if they wish-- the Ben-Hassrath might have something to say about that, as chances are they'd be defying whatever role the Tamassrans had already assigned them.

There is some grey area, mind you. There are female Ben-Hassrath, and they do learn how to fight-- but in a different manner from a soldier. They don't live by their blade. And Tal'Vashoth, of course, break all rules of qunari culture by their very nature. A female qunari who had abandoned the Qun could do as she wished.

[Arvaarad]

Understanding the Qunari viewpoint is simple: there is no "the Qunari viewpoint". We don't say Andrastianism was retconned because Leliana has exceptionally welcoming views, which seem to go against official Chantry dogma. And who knows, maybe her views match the Chant more than the popular views? It's difficult to tell which is THE correct interpretation of Andrastianism, because chances are there is no single, unambiguous truth.

Cultures and religions, even the most dogmatic flavors, aren't equations. They're messy. There are patches of different beliefs, customs, and interpretations all over the place. Underneath the patches, there isn't a scrap of original cloth... just more patches. Happens on a personal level too. Probably all of us have some views that conflict with our own views, because we aren't constantly taking all of our views to their logical conclusion. We're busy living our lives.

Yes, the Qun presents itself as monolithic. But so do loads of real-world religions, and it's never true. Part of what makes a belief system (political, religious, whatever) successful is allowing just enough room for interpretation that everyone can feel that it matches their personal morals - perhaps everyone else is just misinterpreting!

[nightscrawl]

But that's the thing, "why won't Dorian grit his teeth and do it, I did." He thinks that Dorian is exactly in his position and he had no problem with going through with it (even though the marriage is as distant as it can get). But to me at least a straight man in an arranged marriage and a gay man forced to marry a woman are situations that differ tremendously from each other. That's why I believe that the forced heterosexuality is the main issue to Dorian - when it comes to the conflict with his father. As I said, Dorian's problems with Tevinter are different and the conflict between him and his father in not 100% emblematic of his relationship and problems with his land.
 
Also, I would argue that Dorian wanting to live openly without stigma is also very important to him. He wants to fix Tevinter, but what good would it be, if he could find no place for himself there. I think we don't see it so much, because obviously Venatori and the world crumbling take priority. It wouldn't matter how he can live there, if there was nothing left.
 
The links are hard to find, because David deleted his tumblr. Anyway, you're welcome.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, I just have a slightly shifted viewpoint. Dorian is my favorite character in the entire DA franchise and I've done a lot of thinking about him. I don't come at my views lightly or without consideration.

That's all I'll say about it. I'll discuss it further in the Dorian thread if you wish, but this one is getting too cluttered with this particular issue.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Also in the same thread, David perfectly described the reaction

"they (the fans) react as if this new information required "retconning" on our end rather than some thought on theirs"

What a jerk. I'm glad he isn't on the DA team anymore, though unfortunately he is on the new IP. 

[Biotic Apostate]

What a jerk. I'm glad he isn't on the DA team anymore, though unfortunately he is on the new IP. 

When people are yelling at you that you don't understand the story you have written yourself (like people did in that thread), it is a perfectly valid response (and a tame one). I didn't like how he handled the Dorian/Bull abuse questions, but I still respect him and think he is a great writer.

[Xilizhra]

When people are yelling at you that you don't understand the story you have written yourself (like people did in that thread), it is a perfectly valid response (and a tame one). I didn't like how he handled the Dorian/Bull abuse questions, but I still respect him and think he is a great writer.

How did he handle those?

[Biotic Apostate]

How did he handle those?

As far as I remember, he laughed at the idea (he didn't intend it to look like abuse, so he never even thought of it). Since domestic abuse is a heavy subject, especially among gay men, people got upset. Gaider then apologized and said the relationship is not perfect, but they both were written to be willing participants.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

When people are yelling at you that you don't understand the story you have written yourself (like people did in that thread), it is a perfectly valid response (and a tame one). I didn't like how he handled the Dorian/Bull abuse questions, but I still respect him and think he is a great writer.

Calling your customers stupid when they can't figure out something that is complex is not a valid response. The customers in question were rude as well, but he is in a position of authority so has to keep a higher standard. Not to mention he has been abrasive even when the fans weren't rude. He is a good writer, but I have no respect for him personally.