305 réponses à ce sujet

[nightscrawl]

As far as I remember, he laughed at the idea (he didn't intend it to look like abuse, so he never even thought of it). Since domestic abuse is a heavy subject, especially among gay men, people got upset. Gaider then apologized and said the relationship is not perfect, but they both were written to be willing participants.

 

Certainly one of those things where the media and general awareness is more skewed toward hetero pairings, along with some other things which are way beyond the scope of this thread, so I'll not elaborate.

 

I know of one response he gave on this issue, on his tumblr. It has the remarks you're referring to. If he commented elsewhere, like on his twitter, I haven't seen it.

[Biotic Apostate]

Calling your customers stupid when they can't figure out something that is complex is not a valid response. The customers in question were rude as well, but he is in a position of authority so has to keep a higher standard. Not to mention he has been abrasive even when the fans weren't rude. He is a good writer, but I have no respect for him personally. 

He didn't call them stupid, he said it's pointless for the fans to argue that the writers are clueless (retcon is a crappy thing to accuse a writer of), because they had seen less of the story and don't know everything the writers know. He was civil, the fans were arrogant. I think hid did nothing wrong here, you can see it differently if you want to.

[Biotic Apostate]

Certainly one of those things where the media and general awareness is more skewed toward hetero pairings, along with some other things which are way beyond the scope of this thread, so I'll not elaborate.

 

I know of one response he gave on this issue, on his tumblr. It has the remarks you're referring to. If he commented elsewhere, like on his twitter, I haven't seen it.

Yeah, I meant this one, and somewhere on twitter I think (but I will never find it, it's twitter we're talking about). Domestic abuse among gay couples is a heavy subject, but yeah, discussion for a different time and place.

[BansheeOwnage]

He didn't call them stupid, he said it's pointless for the fans to argue that the writers are clueless (retcon is a crappy thing to accuse a writer of), because they had seen less of the story and don't know everything the writers know. He was civil, the fans were arrogant. I think hid did nothing wrong here, you can see it differently if you want to.

There are exceptions, but generally, if a large portion of your audience isn't getting something important in your art, you aren't presenting your art well enough. It can be the writers' fault, you know, and they can be arrogant and snide.

[Biotic Apostate]

There are exceptions, but generally, if a large portion of your audience isn't getting something important in your art, you aren't presenting your art well enough. It can be the writers' fault, you know, and they can be arrogant and snide.

It's not that people don't get it, it's that they disagree. And some people got mad, because they feel BW wanted to be "PC" and include a trans character by force. Others had different expectations. An author of a series cannot possibly meet the expectations every player has.

[Qun00]

What a jerk. I'm glad he isn't on the DA team anymore, though unfortunately he is on the new IP.

Well... he DID write Morrigan. That has to come from somewhere.

[In Exile]

Cassandra is a woman to herself as well.  And even to Iron Bull, who teases her in a sparring session about how "This is why the Qunari don't allow women to fight" (which gets him a pretty hard smack for it)

 

Cassandra identifies herself as a woman.  IB knows it and acknowledges it.  And yet still thinks she'd fit in fine as a woman warrior.  When far more likely she'd end up reeducated.

 

I missed this post a while back, but did want to respond to it. I think the IB is making a different point, and expressing his fundamental objection to the Qun. I don't think he actually means to say Cassandra or Cullen, the devout Andrastians, would willingly convert. I think he means to say that people who are like them - who have their traits - would be alright under the Qun. But people like Varric and Sera have personalities that are just opposed to everything that the Qun is - that it will want to crush and break them for being who they are, regardless. 

A big part of the IB's struggle is that aspect of the Qun. 

[In Exile]

Calling your customers stupid when they can't figure out something that is complex is not a valid response. The customers in question were rude as well, but he is in a position of authority so has to keep a higher standard. Not to mention he has been abrasive even when the fans weren't rude. He is a good writer, but I have no respect for him personally. 

 

He's not PR. It's pretty dumb from a marketing POV to insult your fanbase even when they are wrong, and even when they are wrong for dumb reasons. But I'm not convinced it's wrong from an interpersonal POV, even if it is rude. 

 

There's one correction to make, however. He wasn't calling them stupid because they couldn't figure something out. He was implying they were stupid for being absolutely certain they did figure things out, and for being very wrong about it. Not necessarily less abrasive, but an importance difference. 

[Addictress]

I agree with the sentiment, (Though maybe there could be a vastly increased white demographic in the far future, you never know, I think Bioware is banking on Canadians starting colonies on other planets first) but European fantasy settings are a somewhat different matter.  Such settings have their roots in northern European myths and folklore (Mostly Germanic with some Celtic influence) and history.  Thus the settings tend to reflect the demographics of the cultures the genre originates from.

 

And frankly a lot of white people like seeing those settings hold consistent with that origin because their heritage is the origin.  I don't think that's an inherently bad desire, I would certainly never complain about the lack of diversity in Jade Empire where the only white character is a cartoonish imperialist parody voiced by John Cleese (Why would I?  He's hysterical).  That's not to say I think racial diversity is bad, or shouldn't be in Thedas, just that not everything needs to be diverse.  I approve of diversity on a macro scale, I think entertainment in general needs to be more inclusive, more games need to feature racial and ethnic minorities, homosexuals, transexuals, and others, but not all games.

 

So its good that Bioware is attempting to be inclusive, as the trend needs to start somewhere, I'd only caution a more understanding attitude toward people who feel like they're being told a setting being populated mostly by people like them is a bad thing.  That's not to say they're right in thinking that's what's happening, they're thinking on the micro scale, they want to play a game reflective of their experience (For many of them, that means a predominately white and heterosexual environment) and some take offense because they feel that experience itself is being maligned.  They take the issue in isolation rather than in the context of the wider dominance of such environments in media.

 

As to the issue of diversity feeling "artificial" and "immersion breaking", well, sometimes it can be.  I recall a Zero Punctuation episode where Yahtzee referred to the cast of battlefield hardline (I think that was the game) as a "human color gradient", because each and every member of the team was of a different racial and/or ethnic background.  Such a thing feels artificial because it seems highly unlikely such a perfectly balanced diversity could occur just by chance.  In reality, people that are alike and have had similar life experiences tend to be drawn to one another because people bond over what they have in common, not what makes them different.  Again, not saying such a perfectly diverse group can't happen, just that it comes across as very obviously deliberate in a piece of media rather than something that happened naturally (Unless handled very carefully).  DA2 was criticized by some on this basis for the apparent bisexuality of almost all the companions.  Bisexuality being relatively rare as sexual orientations go, it seemed highly improbable to many players that this fairly random assortment of people Hawke just happened to stumble across was almost entirely bisexual.  It can happen, but it felt extremely convenient and broke some people's immersion.  Granted, part of the issue was that the sexuality of the romances in DA2 felt oddly detached from the characters themselves, where in DAI it was better done and sexuality was integrated as an integral part of the characters, most notably in Dorian and the Iron Bull.

 

I don't think "artificial diversity" is a problem in DAI.  The cast is fairly diverse, but all the characters have a pretty well justified reason to be there, except maybe Sera but that fits her character.  She doesn't need much of a reason to do stuff before she does it.

 

^Just my thoughts on the issue, not strictly a response to the above poster.

 

I approve of this post.

[TEWR]

Of all the reasons DAI wasn't as good as it could've been, the cast of characters is not at all one of them.

 

I really don't see what is at all unrealistic about finding someone who represents the little people -- who in every war to be waged on the face of the planet, fictional or otherwise, are always fucked over royally -- to join you, or a representative of a culture which basically looks at magic and says "DO NOT WANT" or a spirit of the Fade who wants to help everyone, or a First Enchanter who is not a fan of war.

 

I really don't see what's at all unrealistic about them. And your issue is, from your OP, based on there being people of all "races, sexual orientations, and colors" and not at all about anything substantial or concrete.

 

That is to say, Vivienne being black shouldn't be a problem. But of course, it is. 

 

I really question when I see things like that. Lore inconsistencies, poorly written antagonists, shitty politics, character derailment, and treating games like a cash grab and releasing them with a sense of feeling incomplete isn't what's ruining games! No, it's the PoC and all this drive to have people of different sexual orientations!

 

If I ever get my book published, I know for a fact I'm going to be one snide ******* to people.

 

 

 

 

I'm not but I could be

 

I know for a fact you're not. Because you said you're not. Therefore I won't be assuming it.

[Midnight Bliss]

As far as I remember, he laughed at the idea (he didn't intend it to look like abuse, so he never even thought of it). Since domestic abuse is a heavy subject, especially among gay men, people got upset. Gaider then apologized and said the relationship is not perfect, but they both were written to be willing participants.

He should have laughed because there was no abuse.

 

I never kept up with Bioware dev stuff much, but DG seems... Annoying. However, at least he has the stones to tell these rabid fans to step off, because people have become so politically correct and so desperate to be offended at everything there won't be left except the same old safe stereotypes the social police approve of before long.

 

Huge shame he caved and apologized though.

[Biotic Apostate]

He should have laughed because there was no abuse.

 

I never kept up with Bioware dev stuff much, but DG seems... Annoying. However, at least he has the stones to tell these rabid fans to step off, because people have become so politically correct and so desperate to be offended at everything there won't be left except the same old safe stereotypes the social police approve of before long.

 

Huge shame he caved and apologized though.

Saying "you're 100% wrong" is totally fine. Making fun of abuse victims, because some of the dialogue made them incredibly uncomfortable is not. Most of the people in that situation were not rabid. Some were. Most explained in a non-inflammatory way, why they were uncomfortable with it. And some of the dialogue did feel wrong. I wasn't in the group of people who complained, but I see why some people would feel like that. I don't want BW to be PR machines, but sometimes you have to step back, calm down, and give a simple response.

 

This was one of the more tame comments

Spoiler

[Witch Cocktor]

Saying "you're 100% wrong" is totally fine. Making fun of abuse victims, because some of the dialogue made them incredibly uncomfortable is not. Most of the people in that situation were not rabid. Some were. Most explained in a non-inflammatory way, why they were uncomfortable with it. And some of the dialogue did feel wrong. I wasn't in the group of people who complained, but I see why some people would feel like that. I don't want BW to be PR machines, but sometimes you have to step back, calm down, and give a simple response.

 

This was one of the more tame comments

Spoiler

 

Should art be discouraged to portray an abusive relationship (which IBxDorian definitely isn't...) because it might make someone uncomfortable? I do not understand at all. I certainly agree that you shouldn't be a jerk when commenting about it, but I think the phrase '' we're only human '' applies to this. Being in social media is hard if you're an artist or a celebrity...

[Biotic Apostate]

Should art be discouraged to portray an abusive relationship (which IBxDorian definitely isn't...) because it might make someone uncomfortable? I do not understand at all. I certainly agree that you shouldn't be a jerk when commenting about it, but I think the phrase '' we're only human '' applies to this. Being in social media is hard if you're an artist or a celebrity...

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying he should have, from the start, said that this relationship was not abusive and wasn't intended to be seen as such. The end, no caving, no apologizing, no promising to do differently in the future. Even if it was meant to be an abusive one, he could say "that's what we wanted to portray." He probably got some nasty messages, but there's no need to take it out on everyone, who didn't like it.

[Witch Cocktor]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying he should have, from the start, said that this relationship was not abusive and wasn't intended to be seen as such. The end, no caving, no apologizing, no promising to do differently in the future. Even if it was meant to be an abusive one, he could say "that's what we wanted to portray." He probably got some nasty messages, but there's no need to take it out on everyone, who didn't like it.

 

Probably hit an emotional, sore spot for him. He could've been more professional, but I know how incredibly nasty people are over the internet, so I don't really judge him. Especially since I'm tired of the whole IB x Dorian being ABUSIVE AND WRONG debate. Thankfully, they still have a thriving, active fandom behind them.

[Biotic Apostate]

Probably hit an emotional, sore spot for him. He could've been more professional, but I know how incredibly nasty people are over the internet, so I don't really judge him. Especially since I'm tired of the whole IB x Dorian being ABUSIVE AND WRONG debate. Thankfully, they still have a thriving, active fandom behind them.

Probably. There are nasty responses to pretty much every single character and pairing bioware has done. Hell, some responses in this thread give me pause. I'm just disappointed that people who tried to explain their view in a civil manner got grouped with the part of the tumblr crowd, who don't know how to behave like people (there are a lot of people there, who for example take every single picture/drawing with male Hawke and hurl insults that boil down to "why not female Hawke, you scum," so I know how annoying they can get)

[Witch Cocktor]

There are nasty responses to pretty much every single character and pairing bioware has done. Hell, some responses in this thread give me pause. I'm just disappointed that people who tried to explain their view in a civil manner got grouped with the part of the tumblr crowd, who don't know how to behave like people (there are a lot of people there, who for example take every single picture/drawing with male Hawke and hurl insults that boil down to "why not female Hawke, you scum," so I know how annoying they can get)

 

There's always the problem of getting that extremely vocal, '' tumblr crowd '' in your wagon when you release entertainment that has anything to do with having minorities, especially sexual minorities. You can't escape that at all, which is sad.

 

Whether the comments were civil or not, I'm not sure what their objective was though? To make IB x Dorian deleted from canon? That's what I'm wondering...

[Biotic Apostate]

There's always the problem of getting that extremely vocal, '' tumblr crowd '' in your wagon when you release entertainment that has anything to do with having minorities, especially sexual minorities. You can't escape that at all, which is sad.

 

Whether the comments were civil or not, I'm not sure what their objective was though? To make IB x Dorian deleted from canon? That's what I'm wondering...

Bioware did admit that they almost wrote a part in Inquisition that felt rapey, but didn't notice that until one of the female writers pointed that out. People (normal crowd, not the rabid one) probably wanted less of what they perceived as harmful relationships pictured as good ones, they though BW didn't notice, because they usually don't include rape and sexual violence in their fiction, so people though this was an omission or something. I don't know. I don't think anyone crusaded for a corrected canon. But again, I wasn't in the group who wanted BW to do something about it, so I wouldn't really know.

[Witch Cocktor]

Bioware did admit that they almost wrote a part in Inquisition that felt rapey, but didn't notice that until one of the female writers pointed that out. People (normal crowd, not the rabid one) probably wanted less of what they perceived as harmful relationships pictured as good ones, they though BW didn't notice, because they usually don't include rape and sexual violence in their fiction, so people though this was an omission or something. I don't know. I don't think anyone crusaded for a corrected canon. But again, I wasn't in the group who wanted BW to do something about it, so I wouldn't really know.

Now I'm curious about that '' rapey '' scene that '' felt '' rapey. I don't support censoring art for the sake of '' someone might have find this offensive '' or anything, this is why I'm interested. As long as the story is thought out, the bad things are treated as such, bad things, and they advance the plot/story you want to tell, then it shouldn't be a problem. 

 

And when it comes to '' harmful relationships pictured as good ones '' it's only really up to you to decide what is harmful and what is not. For IB x Dorian, seeing said relationship as harmful is just that, an opinion, and it has no weight over anyone elses opinion. And even if the relationship was clearly harmful, such stories should definitely be told as well, and have as much importance in art and storytelling as those that aren't harmful or whatever. As long as the developers don't go '' ah yes, this relationship where the other party is clearly being abused is definitely a model relationship for everyone, this is how us developers treat our significant others, this is a GOOD RELATIONSHIP!! '' then I personally don't think this should be a problem.

 

Heck, I'd totally read a story about a harmful relationship being pictured as good, that'd be such a wicked piece wouldn't it? That is it's own talent, to write obviously bad things to seem like there's something good about them. Not everyone can do that, nope.

 

Either way, I totally support IB x Dorian. The only thing I can't support is making IB loyal to the Qun and then having to kill him in Trespasser if he has romanced you or Dorian >:l Now THAT is evil!

[Xilizhra]

Now I'm curious about that '' rapey '' scene that '' felt '' rapey. I don't support censoring art for the sake of '' someone might have find this offensive '' or anything, this is why I'm interested. As long as the story is thought out, the bad things are treated as such, bad things, and they advance the plot/story you want to tell, then it shouldn't be a problem. 

 

And when it comes to '' harmful relationships pictured as good ones '' it's only really up to you to decide what is harmful and what is not. For IB x Dorian, seeing said relationship as harmful is just that, an opinion, and it has no weight over anyone elses opinion. And even if the relationship was clearly harmful, such stories should definitely be told as well, and have as much importance in art and storytelling as those that aren't harmful or whatever. As long as the developers don't go '' ah yes, this relationship where the other party is clearly being abused is definitely a model relationship for everyone, this is how us developers treat our significant others, this is a GOOD RELATIONSHIP!! '' then I personally don't think this should be a problem.

 

Heck, I'd totally read a story about a harmful relationship being pictured as good, that'd be such a wicked piece wouldn't it? That is it's own talent, to write obviously bad things to seem like there's something good about them. Not everyone can do that, nope.

It was cut because rape wasn't the point of the scene, and it would have been a major distraction.

 

Also, both Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey have what you're looking for.

[Witch Cocktor]

It was cut because rape wasn't the point of the scene, and it would have been a major distraction.

 

Also, both Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey have what you're looking for.

Then that's fine.

 

Thanks but no thanks. If you're trying to be edgy and snappy, I'm not here for it.

[Xilizhra]

Thanks but no thanks. If you're trying to be edgy and snappy, I'm not here for it.

I'm being completely sincere. That is in fact the fundamental premise of both works, even if it was unintentional.

[Biotic Apostate]

Now I'm curious about that '' rapey '' scene that '' felt '' rapey. I don't support censoring art for the sake of '' someone might have find this offensive '' or anything, this is why I'm interested. As long as the story is thought out, the bad things are treated as such, bad things, and they advance the plot/story you want to tell, then it shouldn't be a problem. 

 

And when it comes to '' harmful relationships pictured as good ones '' it's only really up to you to decide what is harmful and what is not. For IB x Dorian, seeing said relationship as harmful is just that, an opinion, and it has no weight over anyone elses opinion. And even if the relationship was clearly harmful, such stories should definitely be told as well, and have as much importance in art and storytelling as those that aren't harmful or whatever. As long as the developers don't go '' ah yes, this relationship where the other party is clearly being abused is definitely a model relationship for everyone, this is how us developers treat our significant others, this is a GOOD RELATIONSHIP!! '' then I personally don't think this should be a problem.

 

Heck, I'd totally read a story about a harmful relationship being pictured as good, that'd be such a wicked piece wouldn't it? That is it's own talent, to write obviously bad things to seem like there's something good about them. Not everyone can do that, nope.

 

Either way, I totally support IB x Dorian. The only thing I can't support is making IB loyal to the Qun and then having to kill him in Trespasser if he has romanced you or Dorian >:l Now THAT is evil!

They weren't censoring themselves, they just had something completely different in mind. It was more fixing a scene, so it would fit the tone.

 

The scenario you gave was not far from what some people who had a problem with IB/D thought of it, it looked to them like "this abusive relationship is awesome, great, and edgy, and let's treat it like it's something cute." They thought the devs slipped or something. Some people got a different feel from it than the devs intended. And I'm not championing censorship here, I'm just saying what people though. The problem I have is what the response to those people was, not how BW writes their romances.

[AFA]

After what happened with Helper, I don't really blame Gaider for being kind of jaded. Or the crap that happened with the writers after ME3.

 

Creative control didn't seem that great on DAI, so some may be more due to sloppiness that an actual agenda. The love interests for hetero males (or the lack there of) caused a vocal number of A-holes to cry about PCism and SJW... etc. I honestly think having no real viable romances outside of Cassandra was an oversight rather than an agenda. You either had hot amazon Cassandra or the Disney Princess, whose romance seemed aimed more at women. Certain characters just don't work with Cassandra (Dalish, rebel mages, etc).

 

Then again, maybe they were banking on Scribbles being Leliana 2.0, it just didn't work. 

[Witch Cocktor]

They weren't censoring themselves, they just had something completely different in mind. It was more fixing a scene, so it would fit the tone.

 

The scenario you gave was not far from what some people who had a problem with IB/D thought of it, it looked to them like "this abusive relationship is awesome, great, and edgy, and let's treat it like it's something cute." They thought the devs slipped or something. Some people got a different feel from it than the devs intended. And I'm not championing censorship here, I'm just saying what people though. The problem I have is what the response to those people was, not how BW writes their romances.

You'd hafta be extremely paranoid if you think BW would write an abusive romance bcuz lol cute Dorian being abused sooo cute.

The response wasn't handled as well as it could, but I can't for the life of me find anything unhealthy about Iron Bull's and Dorian's relationship.