305 réponses à ce sujet

[ArcaneEsper]

You'd hafta be extremely paranoid if you think BW would write an abusive romance bcuz lol cute Dorian being abused sooo cute.
The response wasn't handled as well as it could, but I can't for the life of me find anything unhealthy about Iron Bull's and Dorian's relationship.

I just checked the banter to see how it goes and I don't think it's abusive either. Bull just comes off as a bit of a douche here and there but that's not anywhere near abusive territory. Perhaps if the dialogue wasn't so...aggressive? Bold? (Are those the words I'm looking for?) on Bull's end, people might have seen things differently? (That's a lot of question marks >_> )

[Witch Cocktor]

I just checked the banter to see how it goes and I don't think it's abusive either. Bull just comes off as a bit of a douche here and there but that's not anywhere near abusive territory. Perhaps if the dialogue wasn't so...aggressive? Bold? (Are those the words I'm looking for?) on Bull's end, people might have seen things differently? (That's a lot of question marks >_> )

The only times Bull comes off as a bit of a jerk when he feels the need to speak about their escapades in public, making Dorian seem a bit uncomfortable.

And I ensure you, that's not what Bull wants to do.

 

When you romance Bull, he makes it 100% clear what the rules are and that he will NEVER intentionally hurt you, and at any point, when you are uncomfortable, whether in sex or in the relationship, you can talk to him and tell him to stop. His role in the relationship is to give you what you need, and he does that.

 

With Dorian, his main objective seems to be to make Dorian comfortable with himself, as a gay man. He speaks about their relationship very casually, to ensure Dorian that it's nothing shameful, nothing to feel bad about, and that they have the right to love each other, in public and in private, without feeling like it's something to hide. He wants to give him confidence. Whether Dorian understands this at first, he might not, but in Trespasser, his relationship with Bull has definitely matured and there's definitely mutual love and respect between them.

 

If you saved the Chargers and Bull doesn't betray you, is in a relationship with Dorian and you got Dorian in your party, they will openly exchange '' kadan '' and '' amatus '' with each other after the battle where Bull either betrays you or doesn't.

 

I think both of them come to really appreciate each other in the end, even though their start is rocky. I think Bull might've begun the relationship because he thought that it could be beneficial to Dorian who's company he came to enjoy and appreciate, and Dorian wasn't sure about what he wanted, but in the end, there is love there, a love that is healthy.

[Iakus]

 

When you romance Bull, he makes it 100% clear what the rules are and that he will NEVER intentionally hurt you, and at any point, when you are uncomfortable, whether in sex or in the relationship, you can talk to him and tell him to stop. His role in the relationship is to give you what you need, and he does that.

 

In addition, when Bull starts hitting on Cassandra and she shoots him down, he backs off immediately.  IB clearly takes "no" seriously.

[Biotic Apostate]

You'd hafta be extremely paranoid if you think BW would write an abusive romance bcuz lol cute Dorian being abused sooo cute.

The response wasn't handled as well as it could, but I can't for the life of me find anything unhealthy about Iron Bull's and Dorian's relationship.

Iron Bull: That's right. These big muscled hands could tear those robes off while you struggled, helpless in my grip. I'd pin you down, and as you gripped my horns, I would conquer you.

Dorian: Um.... what?

Iron Bull: Oh. Is that not where we're going?

Dorian: No. It was very much not.

 

I think this is the part people took issue with the most. Whether someone interprets this as abusive or not is a personal view. A few people said some of the dialogue looked like bottom shaming to them. Again, personal opinion. I don't want BW to address it, but I understand where they are coming from.

 

Also, it's irrelevant what happened in Trespasser, the whole situation sprung to life before any DLC.

[Witch Cocktor]

 

Iron Bull: That's right. These big muscled hands could tear those robes off while you struggled, helpless in my grip. I'd pin you down, and as you gripped my horns, I would conquer you.

Dorian: Um.... what?

Iron Bull: Oh. Is that not where we're going?

Dorian: No. It was very much not.

 

I think this is the part people took issue with the most. Whether someone interprets this as abusive or not is a personal view. A few people said some of the dialogue looked like bottom shaming to them. Again, personal opinion. I don't want BW to address it, but I understand where they are coming from.

 

 

I can understand where they are coming from, but that doesn't make it any less crazy to accuse Bull of things he isn't guilty of, and then accuse the writers of anything.

[Biotic Apostate]

I can understand where they are coming from, but that doesn't make it any less crazy to accuse Bull of things he isn't guilty of, and then accuse the writers of anything.

It's not crazy. They played the game, interpreted it like they did, and were upset. Until the devs said so they had no way of knowing, if their accusations were valid or not.

[Witch Cocktor]

It's not crazy. They played the game, interpreted it like they did, and were upset. Until the devs said so they had no way of knowing, if their accusations were valid or not.

 

And despite this, IB x Dorian still gets a lot of flack for allegedly promoting unhealthy relationships (in a positive light).

[Biotic Apostate]

And despite this, IB x Dorian still gets a lot of flack for allegedly promoting unhealthy relationships (in a positive light).

That's more of the regular trolling than the conversation people wanted to have earlier. For those people I have no sympathy.

[Witch Cocktor]

That's more of the regular trolling than the conversation people wanted to have earlier. For those people I have no sympathy.

It's a pretty good week when there's no '' Iron Bull x Dorian is abusive don't support it '' drama in the adoribull tag on tumblr.

[Biotic Apostate]

It's a pretty good week when there's no '' Iron Bull x Dorian is abusive don't support it '' drama in the adoribull tag on tumblr.

And the Handers (Anders x Hawke) tag is apparently for posting mostly hate. A social website that has no blacklisting/filtering options is pointless. I just browse images and ignore anything else.

[Witch Cocktor]

And the Handers (Anders x Hawke) tag is apparently for posting mostly hate. A social website that has no blacklisting/filtering options is pointless. I just browse images and ignore anything else.

I feel your pain. I can only imagine what kind of **** gets in the Handers tag... 

[Elhanan]

Have not yet read it, but this could be relevant to the topic:

David Gaider ‏@davidgaider
In case you missed it, I gave a talk on creating diverse characters at Nordic Game in Sweden last year:
http://urplay.se/Pro...ngfald-i-spel …

[duckley]

Very touchy subject this.... how one feels about it can very much depends on ones own experiences good, bad, or otherwise. Honestly, not sure this was a path they needed to take.

[BansheeOwnage]

After what happened with Helper, I don't really blame Gaider for being kind of jaded. Or the crap that happened with the writers after ME3.

 

Creative control didn't seem that great on DAI, so some may be more due to sloppiness that an actual agenda. The love interests for hetero males (or the lack there of) caused a vocal number of A-holes to cry about PCism and SJW... etc. I honestly think having no real viable romances outside of Cassandra was an oversight rather than an agenda. You either had hot amazon Cassandra or the Disney Princess, whose romance seemed aimed more at women. Certain characters just don't work with Cassandra (Dalish, rebel mages, etc).

 

Then again, maybe they were banking on Scribbles being Leliana 2.0, it just didn't work. 

Why do you say Josephine's romance was aimed more at women? I'm just one person, but it didn't really appeal to me even to try, and if anything it seemed to me like her being available to women was a tiny bit of an afterthought.

[Midnight Bliss]

Saying "you're 100% wrong" is totally fine. Making fun of abuse victims, because some of the dialogue made them incredibly uncomfortable is not. Most of the people in that situation were not rabid. Some were. Most explained in a non-inflammatory way, why they were uncomfortable with it. And some of the dialogue did feel wrong. I wasn't in the group of people who complained, but I see why some people would feel like that. I don't want BW to be PR machines, but sometimes you have to step back, calm down, and give a simple response.

 

This was one of the more tame comments

Spoiler

I'm torn about stuff like that because I imagine it's hard to find a balance between hearing people out even if they seem overly sensitive and keeping the SJW word police at bay all at the same time.

 

Ultimately though if other stuff I've seen is any indication a big part of the problem seems to be that DG acts rude and passive aggressive when he dislikes what people are saying rather than call out offenders directly. That's why in life I find waiting until people cross the line and just bite their head off to get it out my system so I'm coming from a place of neutrality for the next guy who might disagree with me about the same thing, but do so respectfully.

 

Specifically on the DorianxBull thing I didn't find it abusive at all so much as I found it pretty badly written (No offense to people who liked it) and almost unbelievable since Bull honestly seemed heterosexual to me. I can't help but get a really strong feeling that him being a male romance option was something they tacked on later because they needed a second choice for a gay male inquisitor and there was literally no other option.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

Specifically on the DorianxBull thing I didn't find it abusive at all so much as I found it pretty badly written (No offense to people who liked it) and almost unbelievable since Bull honestly seemed heterosexual to me. I can't help but get a really strong feeling that him being a male romance option was something they tacked on later because they needed a second choice for a gay male inquisitor and there was literally no other option.

Everyone has their own interpretation (as it happens, I had a similar one regarding Josephine), but to me it did seem like Bull was pansexual. A lot of his verbiage is decidedly neutral when it comes to gender, which is a big part of that. For instance, he says things like "readheads", not specifying a gender, as well as responding to Cole's dialogue about a woman fantasizing over him with "Most people do" again, gender-neutrally (Sorry I don't have the whole banter memorized, as it makes more sense).

 

There are more subtle things like being extremely fond of the Arishok's horns, although it's not clear if he thought they were attractive or simply aesthetically pleasing. Of course, it would help the audience if he openly talked about men more often, or talked about previous relationships with them, but that opens a whole new can of worms about bisexuals and needing to have them flat-out state they're attracted to both genders for their orientation to be "valid". But it does seem like most of Bioware's bi characters almost only mention attraction to the opposite sex, which is pretty bizarre and can lead to your interpretation of Bull and mine of Josephine.

[Witch Cocktor]

Everyone has their own interpretation (as it happens, I had a similar one regarding Josephine), but to me it did seem like Bull was pansexual. A lot of his verbiage is decidedly neutral when it comes to gender, which is a big part of that. For instance, he says things like "readheads", not specifying a gender, as well as responding to Cole's dialogue about a woman fantasizing over him with "Most people do" again, gender-neutrally (Sorry I don't have the whole banter memorized, as it makes more sense).

 

There are more subtle things like being extremely fond of the Arishok's horns, although it's not clear if he thought they were attractive or simply aesthetically pleasing. Of course, it would help the audience if he openly talked about men more often, or talked about previous relationships with them, but that opens a whole new can of worms about bisexuals and needing to have them flat-out state they're attracted to both genders for their orientation to be "valid". But it does seem like most of Bioware's bi characters almost only mention attraction to the opposite sex, which is pretty bizarre and can lead to your interpretation of Bull and mine of Josephine.

To be fair, the only times Bull talks about sex or attraction, it's always about women. He buys Cole a female prostitute (though this doesn't imply anything, but I mean, how do you know he is into women, Bull? I guess it's the Ben Hassrath training or whatever), talks about letting female servants ride on top of him, about the blonde servant with the huge ****** (Sera banter), about the redhead female elf (Sera banter), about the redhead servant girl (tavern banter with Inq), and he openly flirts with Cassandra.

 

The only times we see clear hints of his same sex attraction is when he hits on Dorian and his relationship with the male Inquisitor. After that it's up to the player to really interpretate the rest. There is a discussion with him and Blackwall where he is complimenting his '' grib '' on his '' sword '' which can be seen as nothing but joking around and being silly and crude. Then there's his discussion with Blackwall about how Bull misses the banana's from Par Vollen, to which Blackwall replies '' I hope you're talking about the fruit. '' To me, both of those instances that can be seen as nothing but teasing jokes.

 

Then there's this discussion:

Iron Bull: He's not just an object to quench your desires, Cass. Make sure you undress him with your eyes... respectfully.

Inquisitor: I'm sorry, what are you two talking about?

Iron Bull: Your naked body. Well, I'm talking about it. Cassandra's just glaring and turning red.

And even with this, I'm mostly hearing Iron Bull trying to tease Cass and Inq.

 

But, IB IS bisexual and that is a fact. I just wish BW made more effort into showing that aspect of him. I do feel like he was made to be a '' open-minded '' straight, but then at the last minute changed to bisexual because honestly, it does fit his character. I would have enjoyed hearing him talk about his love for the male body more, to be honest.

[Biotic Apostate]

I'm torn about stuff like that because I imagine it's hard to find a balance between hearing people out even if they seem overly sensitive and keeping the SJW word police at bay all at the same time.

 

Ultimately though if other stuff I've seen is any indication a big part of the problem seems to be that DG acts rude and passive aggressive when he dislikes what people are saying rather than call out offenders directly. That's why in life I find waiting until people cross the line and just bite their head off to get it out my system so I'm coming from a place of neutrality for the next guy who might disagree with me about the same thing, but do so respectfully.

 

Specifically on the DorianxBull thing I didn't find it abusive at all so much as I found it pretty badly written (No offense to people who liked it) and almost unbelievable since Bull honestly seemed heterosexual to me. I can't help but get a really strong feeling that him being a male romance option was something they tacked on later because they needed a second choice for a gay male inquisitor and there was literally no other option.

I would just like them to respond to people who are calm and articulate about their complains first. That's the part of the fandom they should care about having a conversation with, anyway. Then they can vent about the trolls.

 

And it's not really a SJW thing, it's a low intelligence or stubbornness thing. People want to make everything easier, see people and situations as either perfect or the worst in the world. It happens to both to liberal and conservative people. (hey I still remember when SJW had a pretty neutral definition). What now is called SJW is pretty much a bunch of people looking for a fight. No need to address them anyway.

[AFA]

Why do you say Josephine's romance was aimed more at women? I'm just one person, but it didn't really appeal to me even to try, and if anything it seemed to me like her being available to women was a tiny bit of an afterthought.

 

Poorly worded on my part. I thought her romance was written for women playing male characters. Her being bi did seem like an afterthought

[ArcaneEsper]

Specifically on the DorianxBull thing I didn't find it abusive at all so much as I found it pretty badly written (No offense to people who liked it)

This sums up how I feel about the matter. This is just me, but personally I feel like the romance was slightly fanfiction-y, where one of them is hitting on the other pretty unabashedly while the other is just "oh pls" about it. No offense to the Bull/Dorian shippers tho.

[Witch Cocktor]

This sums up how I feel about the matter. This is just me, but personally I feel like the romance was slightly fanfiction-y, where one of them is hitting on the other pretty unabashedly while the other is just "oh pls" about it. No offense to the Bull/Dorian shippers tho.

I am offended! Jk jk!

 

What was a bit annoying was that these two didn't get along well at first, and their backgrounds are so different, and their ideologies clash hard. But then, suddenly, one drink turns into a lustful night of guilty pleasure and that turns into a relationship. It's very cheesy, something you'd see in a yaoi that are notorious for these kinds of cheesy romances where the two first don't like each other but then come to love each other. 

 

But it's really fine, it was my favorite gay relationship in the whole game, it was fun hearing their banter, and the Trespasser banter/dialogue really just made it very adult and cute, and that schism that they had was mostly gone. So I'm not mad, plus the fanart is GLORIOUS. ;;

[AlanC9]

Poorly worded on my part. I thought her romance was written for women playing male characters. Her being bi did seem like an afterthought

This doesn't strike me as likely. Women playing male characters are a minority of a minority among players, even assuming that subgroup actually has coherent tastes that could be catered to.

And surely the bisexuality can't actually be an afterthought for either Josie or IB. How would the 2-2-2 scheme have worked without them? Unless we figure that the original scheme was 4-2, with Sera and Dorian bi and everyone else straight?

Of course, this has nothing to do with how the romances seemed.

[Gilli]

This doesn't strike me as likely. Women playing male characters are a minority of a minority among players, even assuming that subgroup actually has coherent tastes that could be catered to.

And surely the bisexuality can't actually be an afterthought for either Josie or IB. How would the 2-2-2 scheme have worked without them? Unless we figure that the original scheme was 4-2, with Sera and Dorian bi and everyone else straight?

Of course, this has nothing to do with how the romances seemed.

 

That would put me in that minority of minority players, cause I normally prefer to play male characters and I'm a girl.

DAI is probably the first game, where I'm forced to play mostly girls because of the romances. (forced is in italics, cause it's actually more fun to play a girl here then I thought.)

 

That aside, I'm so glad Josie is bi, cause my fem!Adaar (my very first Inky) didn't like Bull, who she was supposed to romance, but then she talked to Josie and fell in love with her, because she's just so cute. 

 

IMO I can't imagine Sera & Dorian to be bi, especially not Dorian. 

[Crowsfeet]

That would put me in that minority of minority players, cause I normally prefer to play male characters and I'm a girl.

DAI is probably the first game, where I'm forced to play mostly girls because of the romances. (forced is in italics, cause it's actually more fun to play a girl here then I thought.)

 

That aside, I'm so glad Josie is bi, cause my fem!Adaar (my very first Inky) didn't like Bull, who she was supposed to romance, but then she talked to Josie and fell in love with her, because she's just so cute. 

 

IMO I can't imagine Sera & Dorian to be bi, especially not Dorian. 

 

Add me to the minority of minority sub group as well. 4 out of my 5 playthroughs have been as male Inquisitors and I have no *checks* dangle bag  . I RP characters though, rather than play myself. I romance Dorian, who is my favourite companion (maybe many women play as men for this reason, I don't want to make a sweeping statement that I can't back up though - it's not my only reason). I'm already thinking of my next Inquisitor, who I think will be female. This has nothing to do with being a woman myself though.

[Merela]

That would put me in that minority of minority players, cause I normally prefer to play male characters and I'm a girl.

DAI is probably the first game, where I'm forced to play mostly girls because of the romances. (forced is in italics, cause it's actually more fun to play a girl here then I thought.)

 

That aside, I'm so glad Josie is bi, cause my fem!Adaar (my very first Inky) didn't like Bull, who she was supposed to romance, but then she talked to Josie and fell in love with her, because she's just so cute. 

 

IMO I can't imagine Sera & Dorian to be bi, especially not Dorian. 

 

Add me to the minority of minority sub group as well. 4 out of my 5 playthroughs have been as male Inquisitors and I have no *checks* dangle bag  . I RP characters though, rather than play myself. I romance Dorian, who is my favourite companion (maybe many women play as men for this reason, I don't want to make a sweeping statement that I can't back up though - it's not my only reason). I'm already thinking of my next Inquisitor, who I think will be female. This has nothing to do with being a woman myself though.

 

 

I'm in the minority of minority as well ! I play a male Inquisitor who's romancing Cass (though I do have a female Inquisitor as well. She's just not my canon playthrough). Should we start a club or something ?