305 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Comedian]

Tevinter doesn't seem to care about sexuality, as long as you're willing to play the role you're given (Geez, Tevinter sounds like the Qun, doesn't it?) As long as Dorian was willing to marry the woman who would bring prestige to House Parvus, and father a child to continue the Imperium's eugenics program, nobody would care what he does in his private life.

But Dorian was not willing to play along. He wanted his own life

[Jedi Comedian]

Sounds to me like the typical "I'm not a homophobe, but keep it to yourself" .

[Iakus]

 

The conflict would still have occured even if Dorian had been heterosexual and he had been opposed to marrying someone to further a bloodline legacy which I consider to be plausible given that I believe we learn his parents are not especially keen on each other. I am assuming that the blood magic would force Dorian to become acceptable to the marital proposal since otherwise Halward would be very shortsighted in assuming that Dorian's sexuality were the only reason he would oppose marriage.  

 

Yes, DOrian specifically cites his parents' marriage as a reason why he doesn't want to go through with it.  According to him, they despised each other and had as little to do with each other as possible.  Dorian doesn't want that life, I think he called it "All smiles on the outside, and screaming on the inside" or something like that

[Iakus]

Sounds to me like the typical "I'm not a homophobe, but keep it to yourself" .

It's the expectations of the mage class.  Especially the altus.  Tevinter plans to breed a "perfect mage" They're after their own kwisach haderach I guess.  If Dorian were not a mage, or maybe even a laetan, who he chooses to bed wouldn't matter at all.   But being who he is, certain things were "expected" of him.  

[vertigomez]

If something has to give, then Cassandra would not do well under the Qun, whatever IB says.  SHe would either have to give up the sword and become a farmer or something (COuld you imagine her making disgusted noises at a field of potatoes?) or be "re-educated" to identify as a man.

...Yes. He's saying that if she converted to the Qun, she would do well under it. She's a good soldier, she has clarity, etc. If she followed the Qun - gave up her identity as a woman, gave up her faith in the Maker - she would do well.

[YourFunnyUncle]

If something has to give, then Cassandra would not do well under the Qun, whatever IB says. SHe would either have to give up the sword and become a farmer or something (COuld you imagine her making disgusted noises at a field of potatoes?) or be "re-educated" to identify as a man.

Yes I could, actually. I think the point that Bull was making is that Cass is pretty good at dealing with hardship and doing what is expected of her. She could cope with renouncing her womanhood or stopping being a warrior and still remain sane and a productive member of Qunari society, even if she didn't like it.

[Shechinah]

Cassandra is clearly a woman, but has a role that the Qun would peg her as male.  SOmething has to give, to their way of thinking.

 

Not necessarily, in my opinion, as I believe this belief may originate exactly because the Qun adhere so strictly to the Qun.

 

This is my reasoning:

 

If the Qun and what it dictates is infallible then it's followers have to deal with the obvious contradictions that would arise such as that it states that a woman cannot be prolific in war and a man cannot be prolific in agriculture.

 

An example; A woman proves herself to be above competent when it comes to combative matters yet the Qun states that a woman cannot be so. There is a contradiction. Should you remove the armor and sword, you merely deny the obvious and possibly hide nothing as the woman might still show herself capable with her fist.

 

The solution would be to declare a misinterpretation of the Qun thereby laying the blame of the contradiction not at the feet of the Qun but at the feet of a follower otherwise seen as someone who can be fallible. The correct interpretation is now that it is the merit of a person that decides their gender. If a person shows evidence that they are proficient in combat then they must be male because the Qun states that only men can be warriors. If a person shows evidence that they are proficent in commerce then they must be female because the Qun states that only women can be merchants.

 

TL:DR: I consider it to be fascinating personally but I do not consider it to make the Qun more friendly or sympathic as this reasoning does not make the Qun acceptable of transexualism. Take a person who considers themselves male but displays a skill that is considered female. The Qun would disregard the person's identity because their merit according to the Qun states that they are female and assign them the position that they consider most productive to the Qun.

 

If Krem lacked the appropriate skills for the Qun to consider him a warrior but insisted he was male then Krem would be re-educated if he continued to be in denial of what he is according to the Qun.

 

 

 

 

[Shechinah]

I try to chalk it up to IB lying to himself.  He wants to believe that Krem and the other Chargers would find acceptance among is people when they inevitably take over Thedas.  But it's wishful thinking.  He even admits to trying not to think about what would happen to mages he knows.

 

That said, I do think that Iron Bull is lying to himself about well his companions would fare under the Qun since he is in the middle of an identity crisis. He is likely trying to stay strong to the belief that the Qun is correct and so is trying to justify that belief.

 

I think he is omitting certain things because he does not consider them relevent to the case he is currently applying the Qun to like Krem's case. Like I've mentioned above; I believe that if Krem lacked the proper skills to be considered a man then he'd be forced to accept his role as a woman through re-education or be subjected to the saar-qamek. In Iron Bull's eyes, he does not need to mention this because Krem does have the skills to make him be considered a man by the Qun.

 

I believe Iron Bull does mention in banter that people with strong wills like the Inquisitor and some of the other companions would be sujected to the saar-qamek because I cannot remember if this banter is before or after his personal quest. 
 

[Iakus]

...Yes. He's saying that if she converted to the Qun, she would do well under it. She's a good soldier, she has clarity, etc. If she followed the Qun - gave up her identity as a woman, gave up her faith in the Maker - she would do well.

And Cassandra would never do that.  She may "love wules" but she's a freaking Seeker, Devout enough to attract the attention of a Spirit of Faith and be touched by it.

 

Her fate would far ore likely be what IB predicted for Varric and Sera:  "Mouth off until they ended up re-educated, drugged until their minds broke"

[Iakus]

Not necessarily, in my opinion, as I believe this belief may originate exactly because the Qun adhere so strictly to the Qun.

 

This is my reasoning:

 

If the Qun and what it dictates is infallible then it's followers have to deal with the obvious contradictions that would arise such as that it states that a woman cannot be prolific in war and a man cannot be prolific in agriculture.

 

An example; A woman proves herself to be above competent when it comes to combative matters yet the Qun states that a woman cannot be so. There is a contradiction. Should you remove the armor and sword, you merely deny the obvious and possibly hide nothing as the woman might still show herself capable with her fist.

 

The solution would be to declare a misinterpretation of the Qun thereby laying the blame of the contradiction not at the feet of the Qun but at the feet of a follower otherwise seen as someone who can be fallible. The correct interpretation is now that it is the merit of a person that decides their gender. If a person shows evidence that they are proficient in combat then they must be male because the Qun states that only men can be warriors. If a person shows evidence that they are proficent in commerce then they must be female because the Qun states that only women can be merchants.

 

TL:DR: I consider it to be fascinating personally but I do not consider it to make the Qun more friendly or sympathic as this reasoning does not make the Qun acceptable of transexualism. Take a person who considers themselves male but displays a skill that is considered female. The Qun would disregard the person's identity because their merit according to the Qun states that they are female and assign them the position that they consider most productive to the Qun.

 

If Krem lacked the appropriate skills for the Qun to consider him a warrior but insisted he was male then Krem would be re-educated if he continued to be in denial of what he is according to the Qun.

If it was that easy to reinterpret the Qun, then Sten wouldn't be so disturbed by Leliana or a female warrior fighting.  He'd just chalk it up to them "really" being men, and Leliana just being "confused" He wouldn't bother saying "Why would a woman wish to be a man?"

[Biotic Apostate]

Right. I can't speak to how Sapkowski is in public but in his novels there is no overt racism. But you did say there were not lgbt romances and that's not correct. Ciri has a gay romance in the saga. I just had to point that out. There is even in Witcher 3 dialogue options for her to say she is into women and the hint in one scene in Novigrad that she might be intimate with oneirimancer and a barmaid. I wondered how many players resented this as a BioWare style thing without having read the novels or knowing that Ciri has had relationships with women and that is canon.

I know about Ciri in w3, but I forgot that her same sex attraction was also mentioned in books (don't remember them that good, I admit, probably it's time to reread them). Still, to me that doesn't mean much, including lesbian relationships by straight male authors is very different from adding gay male ones. And I really disliked the tone in w2, where Philippa was played not even for fan service, but comedic effect (and the "she needs a man to **** her straight" comments), and Dethmold had his genitals cut off (not that he didn't deserve punishment, it's just a crappy one to give to a gay character) and in the Polish version the devs said they gave him the most despicable voice they could find (which ended up being a pretty strong gay lisp).

(Also, a bit of a technicality, but I said hardly any, and not no lgbt characters)

[Shechinah]

If it was that easy to reinterpret the Qun, then Sten wouldn't be so disturbed by Leliana or a female warrior fighting.  He'd just chalk it up to them "really" being men, and Leliana just being "confused" He wouldn't bother saying "Why would a woman wish to be a man?"

 

It's a bit difficult to formulate for me but I'll try to see if I can find the right way of presenting my point, preferably with quotes. I do believe I may have made a prior post with it that I can try tracking down.

 

 

[JJ Likeaprayer]

Then you're a normal human who hasn't lived, breathed, and dreamed Thedas for thousands of hours 

In a way,quite so... only hours of efforts can't really bring out all the essences of the game. This is not a speedrun,sweetheart. You don't need to live in Thedas for thousands of hours,but at least weeks (or months) of playing as a normal human.    

[The Baconer]

Indeed. I seem to recall fighting a particularly powerful female warrior in Arl Howe's house, actually...

 

Cauthrien was a retainer for the house of Mac Tir, not the Howes. 

[YourFunnyUncle]

Cauthrien was a retainer for the house of Mac Tir, not the Howes. 

She's clearly one of Loghain's chief military lieutenants. At what point did I say that she wasn't? The point was that she was involved in the same political alliance as Loghain. Even if for whatever reason he didn't like women in the military, it was clearly established as not at all unusual.

[The Baconer]

She's clearly one of Loghain's chief military lieutenants. At what point did I say that she wasn't? The point was that she was involved in the same political alliance as Loghain. Even if for whatever reason he didn't like women in the military, it was clearly established as not at all unusual.

 

Ignore that comment. I misinterpreted what you meant by "in Arl Howe's house". 

[In Exile]

Yes, but that's because DA:I retcons the Qun. The Qun as presented in DA:O would never accept Cassandra, or a female Cousland warrior, or Krem.

Ugh, this again. Steve actively doubts that women are women because they fight - he all but insists they are men. The Arishok says he lost "no qunari" to the tal-vasoth in a blatant application of the no true scotsman fallacy.

The Qun works on insane troll logic. That's never changed. People constantly misunderstand it.

[Geth Supremacy]

Ugh, this again. Steve actively doubts that women are women because they fight - he all but insists they are men. The Arishok says he lost "no qunari" to the tal-vasoth in a blatant application of the no true scotsman fallacy.

The Qun works on insane troll logic. That's never changed. People constantly misunderstand it.

 

The Qun was awesome in DA2.  It was quite possibly my favorite faction ever.  It was very well done and the "Arishok" delivered every time he was on screen.  DA2 might have had its bad points, but the Arishok/Qun from DA2 was the reason I was excited for another DA installment.

[In Exile]

I try to chalk it up to IB lying to himself. He wants to believe that Krem and the other Chargers would find acceptance among is people when they inevitably take over Thedas. But it's wishful thinking. He even admits to trying not to think about what would happen to mages he knows.
See, this is the kind of thing that should make the Qun so alien, and potentially hostile to humanity. The lack of personal identity and freedom to choose who you want to be. But the QUn appears to have been altered to make it more sympathetic and, well, human.

Cassandra is clearly a woman, but has a role that the Qun would peg her as male. SOmething has to give, to their way of thinking.

You're still missing it. Cassandra is a woman to us, because we define things based on empiricism. That's not how the Qun works. Your role defines you. If you are said to be a man, you're a man. If you're said to be a Sten, you're a Sten. And if you're said to be an Arishok, then you're an Arishok. Even if you were all these things once -the Qun says you always were and are the thing you are right now until you're not and then you never were that thing you were empirically.

[Asdrubael Vect]

never understand why someone believe on Bull words about Cremisius Aclassi would be accepted in Qunari as soldier, especially Cassandra as soldiers in Qun...Tamasrans spend decades on breeding Qunari soldiers and other breeds of workers and not allowed to crossbreading with other races, they almost never accept anyone as more than workers on fields and spies in non qun lands as Tallis, others would readucated

 

Bull is Hisrat and Hisrat is a lier(Sten and Arishok cant and never was lie) who can talk about us and show that he is friend and later stab you and Dorian if he was his lover

 

Bull say to Cremisius Aclassi what she wanted to hear, and he was kinda lost his eye saving her from a trial for her actions, lie and desertion from Teviter military when she go there and bribe healer so she was pretend that she was a male to have her position in military and money so she would live as she wanted and not marry son of the merchant who could save her family from poor and not make them sold themselfs to slavery so they can survive

[vertigomez]

I hate love the smell of intentional misgendering in the morning.

[Shechinah]

Ugh, this again. Steve actively doubts that women are women because they fight - he all but insists they are men. The Arishok says he lost "no qunari" to the tal-vasoth in a blatant application of the no true scotsman fallacy.

The Qun works on insane troll logic. That's never changed. People constantly misunderstand it.

 

Did you mean to call Sten for Steve? 
 

[Catilina]

 

I hate love the smell of intentional misgendering in the morning.

 

I agree, its lovely

The ppl need some love!

[BansheeOwnage]

Eh. The only way it's not a retcon is if the qunari would, say, declare Aveline or Cassandra to be aqun-athlok. The part that doesn't jive with the Qun is the part where you get to make a choice.

I still think there is still probably a rather horrible element of non-choice involved there, Bull just doesn't talk about it, because he wants Krem to feel better, and Shechinah explains below.

 

They kind of do. Cassandra asks if Bull sees her as a man according to that line of thought, and he says it depends on if she's in her armor (that is, being a warrior) or not.

Which is obviously pretty insulting to Cassandra, and shows that the Qun's mentality is still very rigid and definitely doesn't take personal agency into account. In that case, it makes Bull seem like one of those people who says they don't mind trans people, and even use the correct pronouns, but definitely don't think of trans people as "real" wo/men in the privacy of their thoughts. He calls Cassandra "she", but he admits he thinks of her as a man when she's in armour, so basically all the time.

 

You mean Dorian's father's blood magic thing?  Pretty sure that was an attempt to make him amenable to marrying the woman they had picked out for him.  Not to actually change his sexuality.  

It seemed to me it was going to change his sexuality - or rather, it would have attempted to. We don't know if it would have succeeded. But the whole "He would have... changed me" screams to me it wasn't just mind-controlling him to accept the marriage, it was something more.

 

That said, I do think that Iron Bull is lying to himself about well his companions would fare under the Qun since he is in the middle of an identity crisis. He is likely trying to stay strong to the belief that the Qun is correct and so is trying to justify that belief.

 

I think he is omitting certain things because he does not consider them relevent to the case he is currently applying the Qun to like Krem's case. Like I've mentioned above; I believe that if Krem lacked the proper skills to be considered a man then he'd be forced to accept his role as a woman through re-education or be subjected to the saar-qamek. In Iron Bull's eyes, he does not need to mention this because Krem does have the skills to make him be considered a man by the Qun.

 

I believe Iron Bull does mention in banter that people with strong wills like the Inquisitor and some of the other companions would be sujected to the saar-qamek because I cannot remember if this banter is before or after his personal quest. 
 

Yes, this was my interpretation of it as well, and it preserves the Qun's anti-individualistic doctrines. Having Aqun-athlok didn't make the Qun more cuddly, it just added another layer of crushing any agency its people have. Still repugnant, still scary.

[Iakus]

You're still missing it. Cassandra is a woman to us, because we define things based on empiricism. That's not how the Qun works. Your role defines you. If you are said to be a man, you're a man. If you're said to be a Sten, you're a Sten. And if you're said to be an Arishok, then you're an Arishok. Even if you were all these things once -the Qun says you always were and are the thing you are right now until you're not and then you never were that thing you were empirically.

Cassandra is a woman to herself as well.  And even to Iron Bull, who teases her in a sparring session about how "This is why the Qunari don't allow women to fight" (which gets him a pretty hard smack for it)

 

Cassandra identifies herself as a woman.  IB knows it and acknowledges it.  And yet still thinks she'd fit in fine as a woman warrior.  When far more likely she'd end up reeducated.