305 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

 

It seemed to me it was going to change his sexuality - or rather, it would have attempted to. We don't know if it would have succeeded. But the whole "He would have... changed me" screams to me it wasn't just mind-controlling him to accept the marriage, it was something more.

 

Even if blood magic could change his sexuality, there's no guarantee he'd still agree to marry a woman who was a complete stranger to him and father a child with her.

 

No, I'm inclined to think the blood magic was to change him so he'd accept his role in Tevinter society.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No, I'm inclined to think the blood magic was to change him so he'd accept his role in Tevinter society.

Part of which is taking the gay away. 

[vertigomez]

Which is obviously pretty insulting to Cassandra, and shows that the Qun's mentality is still very rigid and definitely doesn't take personal agency into account. In that case, it makes Bull seem like one of those people who says they don't mind trans people, and even use the correct pronouns, but definitely don't think of trans people as "real" wo/men in the privacy of their thoughts. He calls Cassandra "she", but he admits he thinks of her as a man when she's in armour, so basically all the time.

Bull's a special case, because until you make that decision about the dreadnought, he's really straddling the fence. He knows in his heart that Cassandra is a woman AND a warrior. He knows in his heart that Krem is a man, and that aqun-athlok is not a precise translation for what we consider trans people. But he's trying to justify his own line of thinking, trying to make Qunari principles align with his personal beliefs. He's slipping.

 

Yes, this was my interpretation of it as well, and it preserves the Qun's anti-individualistic doctrines. Having Aqun-athlok didn't make the Qun more cuddly, it just added another layer of crushing any agency its people have. Still repugnant, still scary.

Yep. It's just an unfamiliar sort of rigidity.

Cassandra is a woman to herself as well.  And even to Iron Bull, who teases her in a sparring session about how "This is why the Qunari don't allow women to fight" (which gets him a pretty hard smack for it)
 
Cassandra identifies herself as a woman.  IB knows it and acknowledges it.  And yet still thinks she'd fit in fine as a woman warrior.  When far more likely she'd end up reeducated.

She'd fit in if she converted. He doesn't think she'd fit in "as a woman warrior", he thinks she'd fit in as a warrior.

Bull knows she's a woman and a warrior. And that's evidence that he's going Tal-Vashoth, and will do so with one little push.

[Iakus]

Part of which is taking the gay away. 

Again, Tevinter doesn't care about that, as long as you're still willing to "close your eyes and think of the Imperium"  and create a little Parvus to carry on the bloodline.

 

It's Dorian's unwillingness to do that which caused the problems.

 
She'd fit in if she converted. He doesn't think she'd fit in "as a woman warrior", he thinks she'd fit in as a warrior.

Bull knows she's a woman and a warrior. And that's evidence that he's going Tal-Vashoth, and will do so with one little push.

Saying she'd fit in if she converted is like saying Vivienne would fit in if she converted.  Yeah, she'd be fine if she was willing to be leashed and have her mouth sewn shut as per the demands of the Qun.  And Cassandra would fit in fine as long as she allowed her personal identity to be reshaped into something she knows she's not.

 

That Iron Bull knows she's a woman and a warrior is evidence not just that he's slipping into becoming Vashoth, but that his own views on the Qun are no longer entirely trustworthy.  He's sugarcoating it because he doesn't want to believe he no longer fits in it.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Even if blood magic could change his sexuality, there's no guarantee he'd still agree to marry a woman who was a complete stranger to him and father a child with her.

 

No, I'm inclined to think the blood magic was to change him so he'd accept his role in Tevinter society.

Dorian father wanted from Dorian to have few minutes with female and he can have a grandson what was needed to Dorian family and by Dorian himselfs so he can become magister and have other things what was good for him and for his family survival from extinction

 

Mostly grandson and after Dorian  really can simply do what he want and even leave Tevinter, return to his brothels and do other useless things and parties as stupid Orlesians and Antivans nobles what was not worth of being Tevinter enchanter and especially magister, Dorian do nothing good and in his life in Tevinter, not for country not for anyone and especially for his family, and he have learn some real magic cos Alexius take him and give him shelter and everything before Dorian was betray him

 

It is a pity that no matter what Dorian even wthout Inquisition and saving the world still have magister title at the cost of old Pavus life, he does not deserve it without Inquistion

[vertigomez]

Saying she'd fit in if she converted is like saying Vivienne would fit in if she converted.  Yeah, she'd be fine if she was willing to be leashed and have her mouth sewn shut as per the demands of the Qun.  And Cassandra would fit in fine as long as she allowed her personal identity to be reshaped into something she knows she's not.

That's why he says if she and Cullen didn't die fighting. If they submitted to the Qun, a structured life would not be unfamiliar to them. But realistically we know Cassandra - we know her faith - we know that she'd either die in the fighting or would submit (and submission includes being re-educated).
 

That Iron Bull knows she's a woman and a warrior is evidence not just that he's slipping into becoming Vashoth, but that his own views on the Qun are no longer entirely trustworthy.  He's sugarcoating it because he doesn't want to believe he no longer fits in it.

Of course. But that doesn't mean that aqun-athlok as a concept is irrelevant. It just means he's applying it to anything it'll maybe kinda sorta fit.

[Setitimer]

Ugh, this again. Steve actively doubts that women are women because they fight - he all but insists they are men. The Arishok says he lost "no qunari" to the tal-vasoth in a blatant application of the no true scotsman fallacy.

The Qun works on insane troll logic. That's never changed. People constantly misunderstand it.

 

No, not even a little bit.  Look, you can do all the gender gymnastics you want if it fits your head canon, but the fact is this stuff was obviously retconned.  Otherwise Sten would not say "Why are you here?" and "Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men?" to Leliana (and Morrigan and Wynne), he would question why she acts like a woman when she's obviously a warrior.  Same with the female Warden, he would not question her being a warrior, he would object to anything womanly she might do.  But he doesn't do that.  He doesn't accept them as warriors, female or otherwise.  He doesn't "insist they are men" at all, he simply finds their presence unacceptable.  Whatever their class they are making war, and for a female to do that is not conceivable to him. 

 

Literally nothing Sten ever says supports what you are saying there.  Iron Bull might say it, but again that's because it's a retcon.  Or, at best, you can excuse him saying that because he's Hissrad -- liar, keeper of illusions, a Qunari who wants the Inquisitor to trust him and the Qunari.

[vertigomez]

he would question why she acts like a woman when she's obviously a warrior.  Same with the female Warden, he would not question her being a warrior, he would object to anything womanly she might do.  But he doesn't do that.  He doesn't accept them as warriors, female or otherwise. He doesn't "insist they are men" at all, he simply finds their presence unacceptable.  Whatever their class they are making war, and for a female to do that is not conceivable to him.

Except this is exactly what he does.

Sten: I don't understand. You look like a woman.
Warden: What's not to understand about that?
Sten: You are a Grey Warden. So it follows that you can't be a woman.
Warden: Why not?
Sten: Women are priests, artisans, shopkeepers, or farmers. They don't fight.
Warden: That's not a universal truth. Some women fight.
Sten: Why would women ever wish to be men? That makes no sense.
Warden: They don't wish to be men. They wish to be women who fight.
Sten: Do they also wish to live on the moon? That's as attainable.
Warden: I'm a woman, and I'm fighting.
Sten: One of those things can't be true.

[Setitimer]

Except this is exactly what he does.

 

Um, no, not at all.  He's not commenting on their womanly behavior, he's saying that because they look like women, it is inconceivable that they would be a warrior.  He's not saying you can't be a warrior and act like a woman, he's saying that a female person cannot be a warrior, period.  And he's also obviously saying that you can't change that, if you read the full quote:

 

Sten: One of those things can't be true. A person is born: qunari, or human, or elven, or dwarf. He doesn't choose that. The size of his hands, whether he is clever or foolish, the land he comes from, the color of his hair. These are beyond his control. We do not choose, we simply are.

 

But, like I said, you can do all the gender gymnastics you want if it fits your head canon.

[nightscrawl]

While I am not personally fond of Dorian's quest due to language, I did not even encounter it in my initial campaign. And that Dwarven Rogue Inq and Dorian seem to have as close a friendship as the others.

Sorry; checklist does not appear to be required.

 

Ooh this is an interesting remark about the quest I haven't heard. Can you elaborate? Or are you just referring to the swearing? I felt that it was a really appropriate use of "the f word" given the context.

[Elhanan]

Ooh this is an interesting remark about the quest I haven't heard. Can you elaborate? Or are you just referring to the swearing? I felt that it was a really appropriate use of "the f word" given the context.

Yes; the profanity. At this point, that is a term unheard in the DA series, as the lore and past games have utilized something else.

But as far as subject matter, this is fairly much like helping Cortez in ME3. While one may disagree with their chosen lifestyle, this does not prohibit the Player from treating them with kindness and respect. And personally, I have no problems being their friend. And this was accomplished with or without performing the personal quest for Dorian.

[nightscrawl]

^ DA2 brought in the use of "sh*t," and continued DAO's use of "b*tch."

I can only recall the use of "f*ck" twice during DAI: Dorian's quest, and Blackwall's recruitment if you ask him, "What can one Warden do?" and he replies, "Save the f*cking world, if pressed," which I assume was a reference to the HoF.

Honestly, after DA2 it just seemed like a foregone conclusion that they would bring in f at some point. As far as something else, all manner of swearing is heard throughout DAI. There are the various epithets related to Andraste and the Maker, "sodding," and "bloody," along with the new usage.

 

I think its use in that particular scene was quite powerful because you can really see how upset Dorian is. It's not being used just for its own sake, or for shock value, but because it has an emotional meaning in the scene. This is why I don't mind it overmuch.

 

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just offering my own view.

[YourFunnyUncle]

^ DA2 brought in the use of "sh*t," and continued DAO's use of "b*tch."

I can only recall the use of "f*ck" twice during DAI: Dorian's quest, and Blackwall's recruitment if you ask him, "What can one Warden do?" and he replies, "Save the f*cking world, if pressed," which I assume was a reference to the HoF.

The Inquisitor can also drop the F-bomb in Trespasser. (Far more believably by Alix Wilton-Regan than by Harry Haddon-Patten I might add. Haven't played through with the American VAs yet.)

[nightscrawl]

The Inquisitor can also drop the F-bomb in Trespasser. (Far more believably by Alix Wilton-Regan than by Harry Haddon-Patten I might add. Haven't played through with the American VAs yet.)

 

Oh I was wondering where that option was. I usually pick the top nice/diplomatic one because that's how my Inquisitor is, BUT after having heard that line in the Trespasser trailer I definitely wanted to hear my guy say it. I RP that he doesn't actually swear very often, so it's something of note when it happens. I happen to really like HHP and think he has a good range of emotion, so I was curious.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Oh I was wondering where that option was. I usually pick the top nice/diplomatic one because that's how my Inquisitor is, BUT after having heard that line in the Trespasser trailer I definitely wanted to hear my guy say it. I RP that he doesn't actually swear very often, so it's something of note when it happens. I happen to really like HHP and think he has a good range of emotion, so I was curious.

I think he does a fine job for the most part, but I was disappointed by his delivery of that particular line compared to that of Wilton-Regan. She really goes for it while he's far more restrained and the line consequently loses power.

[Elhanan]

Yes, cursing has been in the DA series, but used more lore granted phraseology earlier like this:

http://dragonage.wik...:_Common_Curses

As far as the majority usage of the bomb, it is mostly tied to the Iron Bull and Blackwall. Then there is this occurrence with Dorian; all can be somewhat avoided by the Player based on choices. Only during the latter part of the palace intrigue is NPC usage overheard, at least that I recall.

And I hope that the sliding bar of acceptance on obscenity is halted before Bioware games become like some other cRPG's, as I still play the former.

As far as the game being tainted by PC, this seems to be somewhat Player focused, as differing Players are seeing different things; varied layers of what may be deemed overuse, intrusive, etc. Personally, I do not see it, but this may be based on my own choices in the game itself. And as long as Bioware allows us the choice, I am OK with the content.

And I prefer the Trespasser trailer use of the term 'Bloody', as it is more generally accepted; reason they had Alix record it for various ads, I believe.

[In Exile]

Did you mean to call Sten for Steve?

Obviously I just meant good old Qunari Steve.

[Shechinah]

Obviously I just meant good old Qunari Steve.

 

His role in the Qun is to be the Steve because there must always be a Steve no matter the time, culture and race.
 

[Biotic Apostate]

Mostly grandson and after Dorian  really can simply do what he want and even leave Tevinter, return to his brothels and do other useless things and parties as stupid Orlesians and Antivans nobles what was not worth of being Tevinter enchanter and especially magister, Dorian do nothing good and in his life in Tevinter, not for country not for anyone and especially for his family, and he have learn some real magic cos Alexius take him and give him shelter and everything before Dorian was betray him

Lovely. Just lovely.

[Biotic Apostate]

No, I'm inclined to think the blood magic was to change him so he'd accept his role in Tevinter society.

Mind control through blood magic is nothing shocking. The only way it would make sense that the Inquisitor could ask "Can blood magic really do that?" (even as a mage), would be if what Dorian meant was using magic to change his sexual orientation. I don't think there's any ambiguity to what he is saying.

[Elhanan]

Mind control through blood magic is nothing shocking. The only sense that the Inquisitor would ask "Can blood magic really do that?" (even as a mage), would be if what Dorian meant was using magic to change his sexual orientation. I don't think there's any ambiguity to what he is saying.

It seems based on the earlier quote that Dorian was horrified that his Father would take the risk of permanent harm to his son over that of a scandal; not the ritual itself:

Inquisitor: "Can blood magic actually do that?"

Dorian Pavus: "Maybe. It could also have left me a drooling vegetable. It crushed me to think he found that absurd risk preferable to scandal"

[nightscrawl]

Mind control through blood magic is nothing shocking. The only way it would make sense that the Inquisitor could ask "Can blood magic really do that?" (even as a mage), would be if what Dorian meant was using magic to change his sexual orientation. I don't think there's any ambiguity to what he is saying.

 

I really don't know how anyone could look at that scene, see his face, hear his voice break when he says, "You tried to change me," and not think that he was referring to his orientation.

 

 

It seems based on the earlier quote that Dorian was horrified that his Father would take the risk of permanent harm to his son over that of a scandal; not the ritual itself:

Inquisitor: "Can blood magic actually do that?"

Dorian Pavus: "Maybe. It could also have left me a drooling vegetable. It crushed me to think he found that absurd risk preferable to scandal"

 

Well it's a combination of things. His father wanted to change a fundamental part of him. Obviously, that's not all there is to Dorian, but it is part of who he is. And this is compounded by the act of betrayal itself, and the fact that said betrayal could have done irreparable damage to him. It's ALL wrapped up in a huge ball of pain, and is not about any singular issue.

 

One of the Inquisitor dialogue options leads Dorian to say that he's "Not ever what [Halward] wanted." He has felt that his whole life. This betrayal was just a culmination of all of that.

[Biotic Apostate]

It seems based on the earlier quote that Dorian was horrified that his Father would take the risk of permanent harm to his son over that of a scandal; not the ritual itself:

Inquisitor: "Can blood magic actually do that?"

Dorian Pavus: "Maybe. It could also have left me a drooling vegetable. It crushed me to think he found that absurd risk preferable to scandal"

This exchange reads basically as:

Inqusitor: Could this blood magic ritual have changed your orientation?

Dorian: Maybe it could have. Far more likely it would have left me brain dead.

 

So this is supporting what I said, not contradicting it. Dorian is horrified, but the Inquisitor is not asking about that.

[Iakus]

Mind control through blood magic is nothing shocking. The only way it would make sense that the Inquisitor could ask "Can blood magic really do that?" (even as a mage), would be if what Dorian meant was using magic to change his sexual orientation. I don't think there's any ambiguity to what he is saying.

 

But again, even if blood magic could "convert" Dorian, that doesn't mean he'd be any more amenable to marrying a complete stranger and having a kid with her.  And that is the ultimate goal of his father's.  Dorian's sexuality is not the reason why he rebels against Tevinter society.

 

We know that blood magic can seize control of a person's mind.  But can it permanently change someone's personality?  Maybe.  Or fry his brain.

It seems based on the earlier quote that Dorian was horrified that his Father would take the risk of permanent harm to his son over that of a scandal; not the ritual itself:

Inquisitor: "Can blood magic actually do that?"

Dorian Pavus: "Maybe. It could also have left me a drooling vegetable. It crushed me to think he found that absurd risk preferable to scandal"

Dorian is disgusted by blood magic in general.  What really horrifies him is that he was taught that "blood magic was the last resort of a weak mind" by the very man who tried to use a blood magic ritual on him.  Such a deep betrayal was pretty much unforgivable to him.

[Biotic Apostate]

But again, even if blood magic could "convert" Dorian, that doesn't mean he'd be any more amenable to marrying a complete stranger and having a kid with her.  And that is the ultimate goal of his father's.  Dorian's sexuality is not the reason why he rebels against Tevinter society.

 

We know that blood magic can seize control of a person's mind.  But can it permanently change someone's personality?  Maybe.  Or fry his brain.

But if he was magically turned straight, the probability he would fall for a woman and have a child goes from zero to high. That is what Halward is hoping for. A relationship with any woman, and staying even moderately presentable in the public eye is still acceptable for Halward.

And Dorian's personal quest is more about the conflict with his father than rebelling against Tevinter. The relationship between Dorian and his father is not perfectly emblematic of his relationship with Tevinter. He want to make Tevinter better, but wants nothing to do with his father. In this case, sexuality is exactly the reason for how their relationship evolved and ended.