Um, no, not at all. He's not commenting on their womanly behavior, he's saying that because they look like women, it is inconceivable that they would be a warrior. He's not saying you can't be a warrior and act like a woman, he's saying that a female person cannot be a warrior, period. And he's also obviously saying that you can't change that, if you read the full quote:
Sten:One of those things can't be true. A person is born: qunari, or human, or elven, or dwarf. He doesn't choose that. The size of his hands, whether he is clever or foolish, the land he comes from, the color of his hair. These are beyond his control. We do not choose, we simply are.
But, like I said, you can do all the gender gymnastics you want if it fits your head canon.
You're struggling with literacy, and completely fail to misunderstand the Qun. Sten never says that the Warden is a woman. He says that the Warden is a warrior, so it follows that she cannot be a woman. The mental gymnastics are your own because he never denies that she is a warrior. Read the conversation again:
Sten:You are a Grey Warden. So it follows that you can't be a woman. Warden: Why not? Sten: Women are priests, artisans, shopkeepers, or farmers. They don't fight. Warden: That's not a universal truth. Some women fight. Sten: Why would women ever wish to be men? That makes no sense.
You can't change your gender in the Qun. You are a man, or you are a woman. But your gender is not defined by your physical bits. You're conflating the definition of the word IRL with the definition of the world in the Qun.
Let's compare these again:
Sten: You looklike a woman.
Sten:You are a Grey Warden.
Shechinah, vertigomez, coldwetn0se et 5 autres aiment ceci
Sten: One of those things can't be true. A person is born: qunari, or human, or elven, or dwarf. He doesn't choose that. The size of his hands, whether he is clever or foolish, the land he comes from, the color of his hair. These are beyond his control. We do not choose, we simply are.
This just reinforces the point. If you're a soldier of the beresaad, you're a dude, regardless of what's between your legs OR how you feel about it. This is beyond your control. You do not choose, you simply are.
But if he was magically turned straight, the probability he would fall for a woman and have a child goes from zero to high. That is what Halward is hoping for. A relationship with any woman, and staying even moderately presentable in the public eye is still acceptable for Halward.
And Dorian's personal quest is more about the conflict with his father than rebelling against Tevinter. The relationship between Dorian and his father is not perfectly emblematic of his relationship with Tevinter. He want to make Tevinter better, but wants nothing to do with his father. In this case, sexuality is exactly the reason for how their relationship evolved and ended.
How does that go from "zero to high"? Do you really think that if DOrian was attracted to women, he'd tolerate being forced into a marriage with a complete stranger? Someone he may well end up hating, like what happened to his parents?
Halward didn't want Dorian to be in a relationship with "any woman", he wanted him in a relationship with a specific woman so their child could further Tevinter's goal of a "perfect mage" As such, his personal quest with his father perfectly reflects his relationship with Tevinter: His father wants Dorian to "go along and get along" with the more unpleasamt traditions of the Imperium, which he hopes to reform it.
In addition, he has firsthand knowledge of how unhappy these arranged marriages can be: His parents were one such. They despised each other, but were forced to remain together and put on a show for Tevinter society. Dorian wants no part of that. It's not fair to him, not fair to the woman in question, and not fair to any child they had. Just as it wasn't fair to his own family.
Elhanan, Shechinah et ComedicSociopathy aiment ceci
How does that go from "zero to high"? Do you really think that if DOrian was attracted to women, he'd tolerate being forced into a marriage with a complete stranger? Someone he may well end up hating, like what happened to his parents?
Halward didn't want Dorian to be in a relationship with "any woman", he wanted him in a relationship with a specific woman so their child could further Tevinter's goal of a "perfect mage" As such, his personal quest with his father perfectly reflects his relationship with Tevinter: His father wants Dorian to "go along and get along" with the more unpleasamt traditions of the Imperium, which he hopes to reform it.
In addition, he has firsthand knowledge of how unhappy these arranged marriages can be: His parents were one such. They despised each other, but were forced to remain together and put on a show for Tevinter society. Dorian wants no part of that. It's not fair to him, not fair to the woman in question, and not fair to any child they had. Just as it wasn't fair to his own family.
You're fixated on the arranged marriage. And I say, Halward would be ok (not thrilled, mind you) with any woman. He had a candidate lined up, but between having a gay son and having that son likes women, but marries someone else, it's obvious he would have been satisfied with the latter, even if it's not perfectly what he wanted. The arranged level is another problem. If Dorian liked women, but wanted to choose for himself, they would have had some arguments, but nothing that lead to blood magic rituals. Oh and the screaming on the inside comment? That's more about pretending he's straight, rather than having a loveless marriage like his parents. And that's usually the wording gay people select, when talking about being closeted.
And if you absolutely refuse to agree with me, here's what David Gaider, the creator of Dorian, had to say about it
"Dorian’s life is one of rebellion, and while being gay in and of itself doesn’t dictate his personality, the conflict that arose from it is certainly a big part of it…and I think that kind of conflict is important when talking about the gay experience."
Again, the creator himself said that Dorian being gay is the root of the conflict, not the arranged marriage. You can interpret Dorian's situation however you like, but that will be in opposition to what the author had in mind.
First of all I never said diversity is a weakness. I said that such diversity being unlikely as it is weakens the immersion factor of the story.
I don't mind diversity in the game what I'm saying is the way they implemented it was weak and too blatantly aimed at political correctness. It didn't add anything to the story for me.
It's like that film that came out fantastic 4 (the latest one) that was a complete disappointment. Not only were the characters intentionally way too young (I don't know how to say "jeunisme" in english sorry) clearly with the aim of making a younger audience adhere more to the film. But they made the torch a black guy when anyone who knows the characters know that not only is he not black but he is also the invisible woman's brother.... I mean come on if they had to add a black character they could have put a normal human character that supports the fantastic 4 and plays an important role but no they decide to change one of the main characters that simply cannot be a black guy. They did the same with Jimmy allen in that supergirl tv series and I really liked the shy yet passionate irish guy too. Now it's a tall suave black guy presumably to satisfy the female audience...
Do you see what I mean? I can just imagine the marketers telling the writer put in an homosexual, put in a black guy, put in a qunari. IMHO the writer should only put a character if they come up with a good idea for that character not because it will be politically correct and pleasing to this or that audience.
Still don't get what you're getting at. Inclusion and diversity are not a weakness, but the fact that all these diverse characters found themselves in this world destroys immersion and is ultimately a weakness? *blank stare*
Sorry, I still don't get your point. DAI is a work of fiction... if you want reality go watch a depressing documentary where many characters are similar and boring and uninteresting and have the same goal. This is a story created by writers, and the fact that they err on the side of inclusion rather than exclusion is not a weakness. If the collection of diverse characters destroys your immersion in the story... well then... I dunno... watch Housewives of Atlanta?
BansheeOwnage, Biotic Apostate et springacres aiment ceci
You can't change your gender in the Qun. You are a man, or you are a woman. But your gender is not defined by your physical bits. You're conflating the definition of the word IRL with the definition of the world in the Qun.
LOL. That's completely, utterly insane and unsupported in any way by anything Sten says. He doesn't say being a warrior makes you a man, he says you can't be a warrior and a woman. He looks at the Warden and says you're either a warrior or a woman, not both. He's expressing his inability to comprehend that a single person could possibly be both a Grey Warden and a woman. His logic is inflexible, and that dialogue expresses its failure to adapt to the reality that some women are warriors.
Warden: I'm a woman, and I'm fighting. Sten: One of those things can't be true.
It's as simple as that. To the Qunari, women can't be warriors, or mages, or anything else that involves fighting. Which is why he says that the Qunari have no female mages, no female warriors. Nowhere, in any context, does Sten ever say that your profession determines your gender. But he very clearly says that your gender excludes you from certain professions.
^ DA2 brought in the use of "sh*t," and continued DAO's use of "b*tch."
I can only recall the use of "f*ck" twice during DAI: Dorian's quest, and Blackwall's recruitment if you ask him, "What can one Warden do?" and he replies, "Save the f*cking world, if pressed," which I assume was a reference to the HoF.
Honestly, after DA2 it just seemed like a foregone conclusion that they would bring in f at some point. As far as something else, all manner of swearing is heard throughout DAI. There are the various epithets related to Andraste and the Maker, "sodding," and "bloody," along with the new usage.
I think its use in that particular scene was quite powerful because you can really see how upset Dorian is. It's not being used just for its own sake, or for shock value, but because it has an emotional meaning in the scene. This is why I don't mind it overmuch.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just offering my own view.
There's also that random merc in the Winter Palace, which really came out of nowhere. In fact, I thought all of the f-bombs except Dorian's and possibly the Inquisitor's were basically just for the sake of... whatever the term is for supposedly making something more mature. It happens to almost every series I see over time, and usually for no good reason. Making it grittier?
We'll add in more sexual things and profanity and look: the game's more mature! Even though in my opinion, it really says the opposite. The exact same progression happened in Mass Effect, as well, and I thought it was similarly pointless. The first game was fine. But I agree that that particular use of it made sense and was meaningful.
Yes, cursing has been in the DA series, but used more lore granted phraseology earlier like this:
As far as the majority usage of the bomb, it is mostly tied to the Iron Bull and Blackwall. Then there is this occurrence with Dorian; all can be somewhat avoided by the Player based on choices. Only during the latter part of the palace intrigue is NPC usage overheard, at least that I recall.
And I hope that the sliding bar of acceptance on obscenity is halted before Bioware games become like some other cRPG's, as I still play the former.
As far as the game being tainted by PC, this seems to be somewhat Player focused, as differing Players are seeing different things; varied layers of what may be deemed overuse, intrusive, etc. Personally, I do not see it, but this may be based on my own choices in the game itself. And as long as Bioware allows us the choice, I am OK with the content.
And I prefer the Trespasser trailer use of the term 'Bloody', as it is more generally accepted; reason they had Alix record it for various ads, I believe.
I honestly think part of the reason for changing it from "bloody" was because they realized the American VAs would be saying it too, and they thought it would be weird to hear Americans saying "bloody".
You're fixated on the arranged marriage. And I say, Halward would be ok (not thrilled, mind you) with any woman. He had a candidate lined up, but between having a gay son and having that son likes women, but marries someone else, it's obvious he would have been satisfied with the latter, even if it's not perfectly what he wanted. The arranged level is another problem. If Dorian liked women, but wanted to choose for himself, they would have had some arguments, but nothing that lead to blood magic rituals. Oh and the screaming on the inside comment? That's more about pretending he's straight, rather than having a loveless marriage like his parents. And that's usually the wording gay people select, when talking about being closeted.
And if you absolutely refuse to agree with me, here's what David Gaider, the creator of Dorian, had to say about it (from here http://the-gaider-ar...ment-in-writing ) "Dorian’s life is one of rebellion, and while being gay in and of itself doesn’t dictate his personality, the conflict that arose from it is certainly a big part of it…and I think that kind of conflict is important when talking about the gay experience."
Again, the creator himself said that Dorian being gay is the root of the conflict, not the arranged marriage. You can interpret Dorian's situation however you like, but that will be in opposition to what the author had in mind.
The conflict; not the only conflict, or this specific conflict. One should avoid assuming that both are linked so directly. Whereas the actual stated information informs the Player it was the possible consequences of using Blood Magic.
There's also that random merc in the Winter Palace, which really came out of nowhere. In fact, I thought all of the f-bombs except Dorian's and possibly the Inquisitor's were basically just for the sake of... whatever the term is for supposedly making something more mature. It happens to almost every series I see over time, and usually for no good reason. Making it grittier?
We'll add in more sexual things and profanity and look: the game's more mature! Even though in my opinion, it really says the opposite. The exact same progression happened in Mass Effect, as well, and I thought it was similarly pointless. The first game was fine. But I agree that that particular use of it made sense and was meaningful.
I honestly think part of the reason for changing it from "bloody" was because they realized the American VAs would be saying it too, and they thought it would be weird to hear Americans saying "bloody".
Based on the recent interview with Alix, it appears that is not the case:
The released the "bloody" version for the trailer so the video could get more views without having to have an age restriction for the word "f***ing". This also means people without YouTube accounts couldn't view it. It's the same reason why I bleep in my interviews.
The conflict; not the only conflict, or this specific conflict. One should avoid assuming that both are linked so directly. Whereas the actual stated information informs the Player it was the possible consequences of using Blood Magic.
There's no other conflict that ties to Dorian's homosexuality. Absolutely on one else cares, Gaider is talking about the conflict between Dorian and his father. And in that dialogue, the part you're trying to omit is "maybe." Dorian said that using blood magic to turn him straight could maybe have worked, but more likely it would have damaged him.
Honestly, you're being so vague that I have a feeling you're grasping at straws here.
There's no other conflict that ties to Dorian's homosexuality. Absolutely on one else cares, Gaider is talking about the conflict between Dorian and his father. And in that dialogue, the part you're trying to omit is "maybe." Dorian said that using blood magic to turn him straight could maybe have worked, but more likely it would have damaged him. Honestly, you're being so vague that I have a feeling you're grasping at straws here.
Nope. Not omitting anything that I can see.
The conflict between Dorian and Father is that Blood Magic was to be used on Dorian that could possibly permanently disable him. The scandal was that Dorian would not accept an arranged marriage, partially because he is gay, and so no offspring. It is the break from tradition that causes the conflict; not necessarily because of Dorian's chosen lifestyle. IMO, of course.
The conflict between Dorian and Father is that Blood Magic was to be used on Dorian that could possibly permanently disable him. The scandal was that Dorian would not accept an arranged marriage, partially because he is gay, and so no offspring. It is the break from tradition that causes the conflict; not necessarily because of Dorian's chosen lifestyle. IMO, of course.
The tradition is to have offspring to continue the prestigious line, and no one said all marriages in Tevinter are arranged, but that all big families have to have children. And again, Gaider said Dorian being gay caused the conflict, the only conflict Dorian faces that is specifically connected to his sexual orientation is the one with his father. This is THE conflict. The dialogue I cited is crystal clear, the ritual was to change Dorian's sexual orientation. The ritual is the direct outcome of the conflict.
LOL. That's completely, utterly insane and unsupported in any way by anything Sten says. He doesn't say being a warrior makes you a man, he says you can't be a warrior and a woman. He looks at the Warden and says you're either a warrior or a woman, not both. He's expressing his inability to comprehend that a single person could possibly be both a Grey Warden and a woman. His logic is inflexible, and that dialogue expresses its failure to adapt to the reality that some women are warriors.
Warden: I'm a woman, and I'm fighting. Sten: One of those things can't be true.
It's as simple as that. To the Qunari, women can't be warriors, or mages, or anything else that involves fighting. Which is why he says that the Qunari have no female mages, no female warriors. Nowhere, in any context, does Sten ever say that your profession determines your gender. But he very clearly says that your gender excludes you from certain professions.
I don't understand what you're struggling with here. Sten doesn't say the Warden is a woman. He says, in fact, that she can't be a woman, because she's a Warden. You still don't understand the Qun. Your profession is everything you are in the Qun. It doesn't just define you - it is you. Lets's try this again:
Sten:You are a Grey Warden. So it follows that you can't be a woman. Warden: [Women who fight] don't wish to be men. They wish to be women who fight. Sten: Do they also wish to live on the moon? That's as attainable. Warden: I'm a woman, and I'm fighting. Sten: One of those things can't be true.
You miss the point of the whole conversation because you misunderstand the most basic feature of the Qun. "You" are your role. The Warden is a Warden. A Warden fights. A warden, therefore, can't be a woman. Let's go right back to it, but even simpler:
Sten:You are a Grey Warden. So it follows that you can't be a woman. Warden: I'm a woman, and I'm fighting. Sten: One of those things can't be true.
Sten doesn't deny the Warden is fighting. It follows, by the very simple syllogism he applies, that the thing he is of the view "can't be true" is the Warden being a woman. This is supported by the very first thing that he says: looks like a woman.
Let's watch the Arishok (starts at 5:00 and then starting ad 7:30):
Arishok: Karasten are soldiers. The Qun made it so. They can never vary from that assigned path, never be other than they are meant to be. But, they are free to choose within that role. To accept and succeed or deny and die. Glory is clear and defined. It is an undeniable certainty.
[...]
Hawke: How many Qunari have you lost to the Tal-Vasoth?
Arishok: None.
Hawke: That seems unlikely.
Arishok: We lose nothing when weakness abandons the Qun. It is the Tal-Vasoth who have lost themelves.
We know as a matter of fact that the Tal-Vasoth in DA2 are Qunari desserters - those who abandoned the Arishok. Yet the Arishok applies the No True Scotsman fallacy. The role is everything. It is not a choice. It is what you are. The Saarebas explains (at 2:46):
Hawke: Existing is not a choice.
Saarebas: It is the only choice.
[...]
Saarebas: [The Tal-Vasoth] are not my kind. I am Qunari. They are not.
Hawke; They have chosen to be free.
Saarebas: Free? They have refused what they are. I ... can't choose to "not be".
The Saarebas then kills itself. The role is everything. The Saarebas means "thing". It is the role under the Qun, and it is everything that Saarebas is and could ever be in that world regarding that theory.
The Warden is the F!Warden's role. She can't be a woman. This is what Sten tries to explain. I can't fix your inability to parse the Qun, and their position is certainly absurd by our standards, but DA:I doesn't contradict it.
Andraste_Reborn, vertigomez, BansheeOwnage et 4 autres aiment ceci
There's no other conflict that ties to Dorian's homosexuality. Absolutely on one else cares, Gaider is talking about the conflict between Dorian and his father. And in that dialogue, the part you're trying to omit is "maybe." Dorian said that using blood magic to turn him straight could maybe have worked, but more likely it would have damaged him. Honestly, you're being so vague that I have a feeling you're grasping at straws here.
Only partially causal as others have indicated. But the conflict is not necessarily about sexual orientation, but that Dorian refused to sire offspring, and refused to act the part, too. It is my understanding that there are many examples of marriages that are only for show, but Dorian refused to play that role, either.
Only partially causal as others have indicated. But the conflict is not necessarily about sexual orientation, but that Dorian refused to sire offspring, and refused to act the part, too. It is my understanding that there are many examples of marriages that are only for show, but Dorian refused to play that role, either.
If Dorian agreed to marry, have a child and pretend for the public, then his father wouldn't need the ritual. But he sees his son's homosexuality as the roadblock to Dorian fulfilling his duty. He thinks if he "fixes" that, Dorian will have no problem continuing the family legacy.
The thing that irked me in DAI was the lack of feminine hairstyles. I wondered if this was about the political/social idea of gender neutrality. May be totally off base here, but it did bother me.
If Dorian agreed to marry, have a child and pretend for the public, then his father wouldn't need the ritual. But he sees his son's homosexuality as the roadblock to Dorian fulfilling his duty. He thinks if he "fixes" that, Dorian will have no problem continuing the family legacy.
We are closing to an agreement, but it is the lack of offspring and tradition which is the problem; not sexual orientation. What the father views as a solution may maim Dorian, and that is the cause of the conflict.
LOL. That's completely, utterly insane and unsupported in any way by anything Sten says. He doesn't say being a warrior makes you a man, he says you can't be a warrior and a woman. He looks at the Warden and says you're either a warrior or a woman, not both. He's expressing his inability to comprehend that a single person could possibly be both a Grey Warden and a woman. His logic is inflexible, and that dialogue expresses its failure to adapt to the reality that some women are warriors.
Warden: I'm a woman, and I'm fighting. Sten: One of those things can't be true.
It's as simple as that. To the Qunari, women can't be warriors, or mages, or anything else that involves fighting. Which is why he says that the Qunari have no female mages, no female warriors. Nowhere, in any context, does Sten ever say that your profession determines your gender. But he very clearly says that your gender excludes you from certain professions.
"Krem only requires you to understand that the Qunari see gender as a role -- if you are a warrior, you are a male"
We are closing to an agreement, but it is the lack of offspring and tradition which is the problem; not sexual orientation. What the father views as a solution may maim Dorian, and that is the cause of the conflict.
Does not change the fact that the ritual was to change Dorian's orientation.
Does not change the fact that the ritual was to change Dorian's orientation.
Which is not the problem. As you stated, if Dorian simply sired offspring willingly through deception, no Blood magic is required. It is Dorian's refusal to do that, so dear old Dad comes up with a more serious method. The result seems more important than Dorian's well being; not sexual orientation.
Which is not the problem. As you stated, if Dorian simply sired offspring willingly through deception, no Blood magic is required. It is Dorian's refusal to do that, so dear old Dad comes up with a more serious method. The result seems more important than Dorian's well being; not sexual orientation.
Iakus wrote that the blood magic ritual was not to change Dorian's orientation, and I disagreed and said this does not fit to what was said in the game. You disagreed with me. So I'm not sure what's the main issue you take with what I wrote.
The root of the conflict is homosexuality, at least from Dorian's point of view. From Halward's it's not the biggest issue, if Dorian just agreed to basically never act on it and have the perfect offspring with the perfect wife. I never said Halward wasn't ready to risk Dorian's wellbeing. I said that in the quoted dialogue Dorian admitted there was a small chance the ritual could have worked.
You're fixated on the arranged marriage. And I say, Halward would be ok (not thrilled, mind you) with any woman. He had a candidate lined up, but between having a gay son and having that son likes women, but marries someone else, it's obvious he would have been satisfied with the latter, even if it's not perfectly what he wanted. The arranged level is another problem. If Dorian liked women, but wanted to choose for himself, they would have had some arguments, but nothing that lead to blood magic rituals. Oh and the screaming on the inside comment? That's more about pretending he's straight, rather than having a loveless marriage like his parents. And that's usually the wording gay people select, when talking about being closeted.
I hardly think Halward would be more approving if Dorian took up with a soporati woman. or an elf. He didn't have a "candidate" lined up. He had a brood mare. And Dorian was to be the stud. That was the point of the marriage. That is what Halward wanted. Just as he did as his father wanted and married Dorian's mother.
If Dorian was into women, it would have changed some of the details of the conflict. But the underlying cause would not have changed: Dorian was opposed to what Tevinter society had become, and certainly didn't want to become part of it. Being gay simply made it more personal for him.
And if you absolutely refuse to agree with me, here's what David Gaider, the creator of Dorian, had to say about it
(from here http://the-gaider-ar...ment-in-writing )
"Dorian’s life is one of rebellion, and while being gay in and of itself doesn’t dictate his personality, the conflict that arose from it is certainly a big part of it…and I think that kind of conflict is important when talking about the gay experience."
Again, the creator himself said that Dorian being gay is the root of the conflict, not the arranged marriage. You can interpret Dorian's situation however you like, but that will be in opposition to what the author had in mind.
Oh, I see where he states what the root of the conflict is, but I see it in a different part of the statement:
"Dorian's life is one of rebellion"
If Dorian agreed to the marriage, he could have gone on having extramarital relationships all he wanted once he had secured an heir. And as long as he put on the public face of being happily married, no one would have cared. Even if everyone knew differently.
Retour en haut
