158 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

The point is that "elf" has a defined meaning, and a defined imagine. More to the point, "humanoid" has a defined aesthetic. Fiction has very different forms of "elf" depending on what the author wants to convey. If DA:I wanted to convey "sickly and weak", then we wouldn't have this debate (we would have one about whether it was worth it to portray a race that way). But DA:I didn't want to convey an aesthetic of sickly and weak - this is why none of the elven NPCs actually look like they have the same frame or rig as the Inquisitor. 

 

Anyway, are we back to beating the humanoid horse dead? In DA:I, they're not "a bit skinny" compared to humans. They're terrifying starved. We're talking about this level of skinny:

 

Spoiler

 

 

There's a major difference: their skeletal structure is also different, so that the bones don't poke out and they don't look wasted. They don't actually look ill; they're not human and applying human norms to them doesn't work. An elf with a human's body mass would be either fat or weirdly overmuscled.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Anyway, are we back to beating the humanoid horse dead? In DA:I, they're not "a bit skinny" compared to humans. They're terrifying starved. We're talking about this level of skinny:

What we're talking about is a different species. Not "terrifyingly starved" but something that is not directly comparable.

[In Exile]

What we're talking about is a different species. Not "terrifyingly starved" but something that is not directly comparable.

 

No. I don't get why you're so hung up on "different species". It's irrelevant. We're talking about the aesthetic sensibility of the audience. That's the driving force behind the art and modeling. This thing is humanoid:

 

 

If elves started to look like this, but the whole game was about how they were aesthetically pleasing to humans, we'd all rightly decide Bioware had parted company with reality.

 

The elves are meant to represent a particular aesthetic. Bioware got it wrong in DA:I, especially with their male elven model. 

[YourFunnyUncle]

No. I don't get why you're so hung up on "different species". It's irrelevant. We're talking about the aesthetic sensibility of the audience. That's the driving force behind the art and modeling. This thing is humanoid:

 

 

If elves started to look like this, but the whole game was about how they were aesthetically pleasing to humans, we'd all rightly decide Bioware had parted company with reality.

 

The elves are meant to represent a particular aesthetic. Bioware got it wrong in DA:I, especially with their male elven model. 

 

But they don't look like that. They look like humanoids with a slimmer bone structure and less body fat than normal humans. You keep putting forward extreme examples, but that's not how DAI's elves look.

[Xilizhra]

No. I don't get why you're so hung up on "different species". It's irrelevant. We're talking about the aesthetic sensibility of the audience. That's the driving force behind the art and modeling.

Then the idea that the elves are somehow "wrong" is simple presumptuousness.

[In Exile]

But they don't look like that. They look like humanoids with a slimmer bone structure and less body fat than normal humans. You keep putting forward extreme examples, but that's not how DAI's elves look.

 

They look like the prison camp survivors I just showed you. This isn't an extreme example. It's quite literally how they look: 

 

[Xilizhra]

They look like the prison camp survivors I just showed you. This isn't an extreme example. It's quite literally how they look: 

But they don't, and I just said why.

[In Exile]

Then the idea that the elves are somehow "wrong" is simple presumptuousness.

For one, it's an argument about how male elves look. For another, it's not presumptuous when we're talking about aesthetic. It's subjective. 

[In Exile]

But they don't, and I just said why.

 

I suddenly don't think you understand what the word presumptuous means. It means unjustifiably bold or forward. You think it's forward of me to make express an opinion on an aesthetic when the very subject of debate is whether something fits the proper aesthetic? What? I don't understand your point. 

[Xilizhra]

I suddenly don't think you understand what the word presumptuous means. It means unjustifiably bold or forward. You think it's forward of me to make express an opinion on an aesthetic when the very subject of debate is whether something fits the proper aesthetic? What? I don't understand your point. 

No, I said why earlier.

 

 

There's a major difference: their skeletal structure is also different, so that the bones don't poke out and they don't look wasted. They don't actually look ill; they're not human and applying human norms to them doesn't work. An elf with a human's body mass would be either fat or weirdly overmuscled.

 

The presumptuousness came from speaking for the entire audience in calling elves an aesthetic failure.

[YourFunnyUncle]

They look like the prison camp survivors I just showed you. This isn't an extreme example. It's quite literally how they look: 

 

 

It quite literally is not how they look. They neither have protruding bones nor visible skeletons. They look like healthy beings with slimmer bone structure than normal humans.

[Steelcan]

They look like their designers have no idea what they should actually look like.

What we see in DA:I might be representative of a healthy individual, but to the audience it looks like they've done time in a gulag.

[Xilizhra]

They don't look like their designers have no idea what they should actually look like.

What we see in DA:I might be representative of a healthy individual, but to the audience it looks like they've done time in a gulag.

Find a naked elf picture from DAI and show me physical signs of starvation. I'll wait.

[Steelcan]

Find a naked elf picture from DAI and show me physical signs of starvation. I'll wait.

I said they look like it to the audience. I don't doubt they were meant to portray healthy Elves, it just happens to seem that healthy elf and gulag survivor are analogous body shapes

[Xilizhra]

I said they look like it to the audience. I don't doubt they were meant to portray healthy Elves, it just happens to seem that healthy elf and gulag survivor are analogous body shapes

Except that they aren't, and I've explained why this is twice. I can only assume that this hypothetical audience has no idea what gulag survivors look like.

[Steelcan]

Elves in DA:I look like smaller, skinnier, and basically stunted humans, that to me, and likely many others makes them look like humans who haven't been doing too well.

I am sure that this wasn't intentional on BioWare's part and that they intended Elves to look perfectly fine for their own species. This just didn't translate well imo

[In Exile]

The presumptuousness came from speaking for the entire audience in calling elves an aesthetic failure.

It quite literally is not how they look. They neither have protruding bones nor visible skeletons. They look like healthy beings with slimmer bone structure than normal humans.

 

They very clearly have protruding bones and visible skeletons. I'm honestly wondering if I've stepped into some strange bizzaro world. The DA:I models are  clothed for the male elf so the parallel to the prison camp survivor doesn't work, and the build actually changes for the nude model they use for Dorian and Cassandra (and the IB).

 

You see this bone structure issue most clearly in contrast to the female elf, which (while thin) has natural proportions:

 

[Xilizhra]

They very clearly have protruding bones and visible skeletons. I'm honestly wondering if I've stepped into some strange bizzaro world. The DA:I models are  clothed for the male elf so the parallel to the prison camp survivor doesn't work, and the build actually changes for the nude model they use for Dorian and Cassandra (and the IB).

 

You see this bone structure issue most clearly in contrast to the female elf, which (while thin) has natural proportions:

I'll grant that I only play female PCs, but I still don't see what you're talking about on the male elf picture you posted above.

[YourFunnyUncle]

They very clearly have protruding bones and visible skeletons. I'm honestly wondering if I've stepped into some strange bizzaro world. The DA:I models are  clothed for the male elf so the parallel to the prison camp survivor doesn't work, and the build actually changes for the nude model they use for Dorian and Cassandra (and the IB).

 

You see this bone structure issue most clearly in contrast to the female elf, which (while thin) has natural proportions:

 

I will agree that the nude and clothed body shapes are all over the place, but that's not just an elf thing, it's across the board. About as far as I can go with you in terms of the elves is that the males have oddly shaped upper arms compared to the females. It does seem weird, but it does not look like the emaciated prison camp survivors that you shared.

[In Exile]

I will agree that the nude and clothed body shapes are all over the place, but that's not just an elf thing, it's across the board. About as far as I can go with you in terms of the elves is that the males have oddly shaped upper arms compared to the females. It does seem weird, but it does not look like the emaciated prison camp survivors that you shared.

 

It's not the arms. The arms are fine - the awkward bend comes from the problem with the shoulders, which are simply too thin. Here is another imagine, which emphasizes the ribcage and the waist):

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

This is simply not a natural proportion on humans, which is definitively the aim of this design (you see it with the female model of each race). It's the same kind of problem as the male Qunari (albeit that's not the subject of this threat). 

 

The arms bend weird because the waist is slightly wider than the shoulders, and otherwise the arms would clip through the waist. You would need incredibly thin arms to keep the same chest/waist proportion. 

[YourFunnyUncle]

It's not the arms. The arms are fine - the awkward bend comes from the problem with the shoulders, which are simply too thin. Here is another imagine, which emphasizes the ribcage and the waist):

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

This is simply not a natural proportion on humans, which is definitively the aim of this design (you see it with the female model of each race). It's the same kind of problem as the male Qunari (albeit that's not the subject of this threat). 

 

The arms bend weird because the waist is slightly wider than the shoulders, and otherwise the arms would clip through the waist. You would need incredibly thin arms to keep the same chest/waist proportion. 

 

In that case what I'll concede to you is that they should've made the shoulders maybe an inch or two wider to account for the waist not being as narrow as that of the females. That's it. No emaciated concentration camp comparisons needed.

[stop_him]

An upgrade to larger breasts and poutier lips, I suspect.

[KamuiStorm]

How about we just a body slider option or make future dragon age games cc like saints row? This way people get their anorexic elven and others can buff up their elf characters the way they wish. As I said I prefer dao elven bodies but would like a mix of both.

[nightscrawl]

I don't play elves, but can't someone post an image of nude male elf sitting on the bed beside nude human male, Dorian? That would be one of the better comparisons, I think.

 

How about we just a body slider option or make future dragon age games cc like saints row? This way people get their anorexic elven and others can buff up their elf characters the way they wish. As I said I prefer dao elven bodies but would like a mix of both.

Well, yeah, a lot of people want a body slider option, but Bioware has shown that that's not how they want to do things for these games. They had an opportunity to change things up with DAI, but they didn't. Maybe it will happen with DA4, but I'm thinking likely not. The heavy emphasis on cinematics in all aspects of storytelling, including romances where characters are interacting, makes me think the likelihood is low. I know this is an extreme example, but John Epler did extra work with the Iron Bull romance scenes so he would be compatible with all races and genders, and that is with the fixed bodies we currently have.

[thats1evildude]

It's kind of hard judging from the Dorian romance scene how male elven bodies look, since you never really see them from mid-chest up.

 

The male elf doesn't look bad in the spa scene with Vivienne, though. I think the default beige pyjamas are just really unflattering on male elves.