101 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

One of the reasons I always felt that Shotguns took such a high level of focus in this game is due to the way the thermal clip system works.  Contrary to the vast majority of shotguns in other games where you have to load individual shells, the thermal clip system allows for a high level of sustained DPS since we are able to reload them in a clip format.  I would imagine we never would have seen any nerfs to the pirahna if you had to load the 8 shells one at a time.

Maybe, but Piranha probably also wouldn't have been nerfed if it couldn't get + 15%, 25% or 45% from various characters.
 
Of course they could have also made the encumbrance appropriate for the DPS, but there are very few examples of that anyway.

[capn233]

If we're still talking IRL vs. in-game function, then there are pistols that fire shot shells, there's nothing the least bit unrealistic about the Talon.

 

The Indra....yeah, got nothing for you there. #spacemagic

 

Not talking about real life, I am aware of the Judge and other novelty guns.

 

I don't really see the point of putting weapons in the wrong category.  It is sort of like a loophole allowing access to different mods or bonuses.  Which defeats the point of restricting those mods and bonuses to begin with.

 

******

 

edit:  Since there is all this pellet based talk, the 100% shieldgate was a pretty poor idea and hopefully it remains a historical footnote.

 

The real question is whether shieldgate for enemies should exist at all.  Then you need to determine headshot multipliers and the actual strength of the gate.

[Sinful Force]

Shotguns have the highest dps in the game (which makes sense for shotguns because they are less accurate), yet many can be still used for sniping (if not, there there are 3 powers that make them so much more accurate). How is that balanced?

 

Don't forget shieldgate bypass. One of the reasons Krysae nerf was so effective was because they took away it's shieldgate bypass.

[capn233]

^ They have the highest DPS in what way?  Like the gun with the highest stat DPS is in that category?  Or they have the highest mean or median DPS?

[Sinful Force]

^ They have the highest DPS in what way?  Like the gun with the highest stat DPS is in that category?  Or they have the highest mean or median DPS?

 

Well how many ways are there? I just remember the numbers off Cyonan's weapons chart.

[Abramsrunner]

Shotgun's DPS, & total damage off of Cyonan's weapons chart is only true is if all 8 (Talon has 6) pellets hit all the time, which is only possible at all ranges with 2 kits(Tsol, & Quarksman), at medium ranges with the other 4 (GI, GE, GT, & N7 Destroyer), & The Reegar Carbine is so frame rate dependent.

[Sinful Force]

^ Even if they don't all hit, still more dps then most other weapons.

[Loufi]

Well how many ways are there? I just remember the numbers off Cyonan's weapons chart.

The Reegar has the highest dps of all weapons, whatever the criterion used. But, if you compare, for instance, shotguns and assault rifles, the result may vary significantly between single clip dps and multi clips dps.

[Mgamerz]

Make them all projectiles so they're super laggy off host.

[capn233]

Shotgun's DPS, & total damage off of Cyonan's weapons chart is only true is if all 8 (Talon has 6) pellets hit all the time, which is only possible at all ranges with 2 kits(Tsol, & Quarksman), at medium ranges with the other 4 (GI, GE, GT, & N7 Destroyer), & The Reegar Carbine is so frame rate dependent.

 

Yes, it is purely theoretical.  At least outside of MM, or very close range.  At least for the DPS hero shotguns like Piranha and Raider.

 

Reegar does around half of the paper DPS at 60fps due to evaporating pellets.

[Abramsrunner]

^ Even if they don't all hit, still more dps then most other weapons.

Assault rifles, Heavy pistols, SMGs, & Snipers have more consistent DPS aside from a few odd ball guns, than shotguns do.

[TheNightSlasher]

Shotguns feel like a near perfect weapon choice for just about every class. This goes beyond DPS. Every time a 'suggest a build' thread appears, a shotgun build leads the pack. They probably don't do the highest DPS for a given character but they sure as hell seem perfect for everything. Infiltrators with sniper rifle TC seem as effective (or more effective) with a shotgun. They seem too perfect. 

 

Shotguns seem a very strong fit on everything from an adept to a vanguard, but the same can't be said for other weapon classes - how often do you see a build involving a sniper on an adept, or an smg on a vanguard? Not even close to shotgun <insert class>. OTOH, SMG's got the short end of the stick. 

 

Anyway, that was the basis of my first post in this thread. Just one way to make shotguns a little less efficient. I used Raider as an example because that gun is mostly seen on vanguards or classes that operate in CQC range. 

 

Ya ya...blah blah space magic..why do I care....I know about 90%+ will not agree but that's not something new.

[capn233]

If you took out the Wraith and Venom, shotguns wouldn't be recommended nearly as much.

 

Claymore still would, because Claymore, obviously.

[Abramsrunner]

Shotguns feel like a near perfect weapon choice for just about every class. 

 

I know that Shotguns are really strong, they have been since the beginning along with heavy pistols. ARs, & SMGs were weak as a Pyjak back then, & snipers were only really used on Infiltrators with their even more OP cloak of old with 90% base damage boost, & a 40% sniper damage multiplier.

 

Now it's a bit different, all weapon classes have their own "OP" weapons.

 

And like capn said if there were no Wraith, & Venom there'd be less shotgun builds.

[TheNightSlasher]

If you took out the Wraith and Venom, shotguns wouldn't be recommended nearly as much.

 

Claymore still would, because Claymore, obviously.

That's kinda true for all weapon class.

 

SMGs without hurricane and CSMG is basically trash. Pistols without talon and arc pistol will make that class mediocre (Paladin is good but no where as good as these two). ARs without harrier, PPR and saber. Etc, etc. I'd remove all the OP stuff from other categories too, to balance the field.

 

Consider this. Take two uncommons - Eviscerator vs. Phaeston. I'd probably pick the former on all but a handful of classes. You could pick two rares or commons. And I'd end up with more shotgun builds (with the exception of arc pistol, I guess).

 

I don't want to talk about claymore now. 

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

If a pistol can masquerade as a shotgun and a shotgun masquerade as a sniper rifle and a sniper rifle masquerade as a assault rifle, whats the problem?

Well, part of the problem is that only one assault rifle masquerades as an assault rifle.

[Catastrophy]

I know that Shotguns are really strong, they have been since the beginning along with heavy pistols. ARs, & SMGs were weak as a Pyjak back then, & snipers were only really used on Infiltrators with their even more OP cloak of old with 90% base damage boost, & a 40% sniper damage multiplier.

 

Now it's a bit different, all weapon classes have their own "OP" weapons.

 

And like capn said if there were no Wraith, & Venom there'd be less shotgun builds.

Not only are shotguns strong, they are also fun. Most of them have just the right feel and deliver a satisfying feedback.

[TheTechnoTurian]

Not to shitpost or anything amidst this Serious Business discussion but I would like to see glorious turianweapon Phaeston return in ME:A with faster ROF and improved accuracy/damage because the mere idea that some pine-cone-in-the-ass-tier human garbage weapon like the Typhoon or some ancient garbage like the PPR should be more powerful than the glorious turianweapon is utterly repugnant to me 

[Loufi]

Not to shitpost or anything amidst this Serious Business discussion but I would like to see glorious turianweapon Phaeston return in ME:A with faster ROF and improved accuracy/damage because the mere idea that some pine-cone-in-the-ass-tier human garbage weapon like the Typhoon or some ancient garbage like the PPR should be more powerful than the glorious turianweapon is utterly repugnant to me 

Will turians finally learn how to make good weapons in ME:A ? 

[Abramsrunner]

Not to shitpost or anything amidst this Serious Business discussion but I would like to see glorious turianweapon Phaeston return in ME:A with faster ROF and improved accuracy/damage because the mere idea that some pine-cone-in-the-ass-tier human garbage weapon like the Typhoon or some ancient garbage like the PPR should be more powerful than the glorious turianweapon is utterly repugnant to me 

Ima sig that phaeston.

[capn233]

That's kinda true for all weapon class.

 

SMGs without hurricane and CSMG is basically trash. Pistols without talon and arc pistol will make that class mediocre (Paladin is good but no where as good as these two). ARs without harrier, PPR and saber. Etc, etc. I'd remove all the OP stuff from other categories too, to balance the field.

 

Consider this. Take two uncommons - Eviscerator vs. Phaeston. I'd probably pick the former on all but a handful of classes. You could pick two rares or commons. And I'd end up with more shotgun builds (with the exception of arc pistol, I guess).

 

I don't want to talk about claymore now. 

 

Not sure where you are going with the first part, if anything it is evidence that there are poorly balanced weapons that happen to be spread across all classes.  Not that shotguns are inherently overpowered.

 

The only shotguns that really are recommended with any frequency over nearly all characters are Wraith and Venom, and to a lesser extent Claymore.  The Wraith makes sense since it is was overbuffed, had good pellet spread to begin with, and hardly weighs anything.  Venom is the king of projectile shotguns.

 

If you pull out Arc Pistol and Talon from pistols, you still have a bunch of options that don't particularly require any sort of bonus to work decently.  Really the pistol class is by far the most consistently strong class, especially when you adjust by weight.

 

Eviscerator is decent for an uncommon, and might be a decent gun to recommend over other ones across a lot of characters, but that is partly because the weakness of the Phalanx.  Otherwise the pistols have the best option at practically every rarity tier.

[xelander]

I'd argue that the sniper rifles have the best options at every tier, followed by a tie between shotguns and pistols. The problem is that usually classes other than Infiltrators lend themselves better to pistols or shotguns.

 

Shotguns are most of the time the top contenders because they 1) bypass shield-gate, 2) provide stagger and 3) lean toward burst damage (which contributes to survivability).

 

I liked how the different protections worked in ME2 with respect to ammo and weapon types and I felt the shield-gate in ME3 was a bit too stringent. Some amalgamation of the two might be the best way to go about it in MEA.

[Loufi]

OK, let's see the best options for each tier :

 

Common : Mantis

Uncommon : Mattock

Rare : Arc pistol

Ultra-rares :  Wraith or Talon

 

Conclusion : SMGs suck no category of weapons seems to dominate so much, according to this fast but admiteddly very imperfect way of assessing weapons. The ranking would perhaps change if I picked the two best weapons of each tier... what I couldn't do actually since there's is only one uncommon pistol and one uncommon SMG. I'm not sure which methodology we could use to determine rigourously the best category of weapons, if there is one.

 

I feel that the ability of shotguns to bypass the shield gate was inevitable, because the short / mid range fighting they impose needed that kind of reward. Besides, not being able to one shot kill infantry units like Centurions or Marauders with a shotgun would be too frustrating... and would not fit with the big boom they produce. At the beginning of the game, this property of bypassing the shield gate made shotguns the prefered weapons even for infiltrators with a sniper rifle damage bonus at rank 6 of Tactical Cloak. Then Bioware introduced phasic rounds, and kinda rebalanced things.

 

I agree with Slasher that shotguns are the most popular here, but IMO it's not because the category is inherently broken but more because

1) they're the most fun
2) They're very varied

3) regarding killing efficiency, this game is best played at short / mid range most of the time. This is due to the presence of powers allowing to close distance, to the existence of RHA, the design of the maps (not so many long lines of sight without cover) and of the enemies (not so many units that can snipe you). These characteristics allow experienced players to safely rush circularly from spawn to spawn. In this situation, having a shotgun in hand is often the best solution. 

[Marksmad is waving goodbye]

Well, part of the problem is that only one assault rifle masquerades as an assault rifle.

????????

[capn233]

I feel that the ability of shotguns to bypass the shield gate was inevitable, because the short / mid range fighting they impose needed that kind of reward. Besides, not being able to one shot kill infantry units like Centurions or Marauders with a shotgun would be too frustrating...

 

Well since we have been talking about Eviscerator and now Centurions...

 

You have to put in a lot of effort for an Eviscerator to actually one-shot a gold Centurion on a regular character like Asari Adept.  Basically straight weapon damage passive; amp and weapon gear; and then Phasic III, or level IV DA, IA, or WA.

 

Katana, Scimitar, and Disciple are too wimpy.  Piranha has similar damage, but accuracy blows.  If it takes two shots, it largely doesn't matter that bypasses shieldgate.