84 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

I'd definitely like to see a return to a little more dark and gritty over, inquisition was very poor in this regard.

[straykat]

@Akrabra:  Only setting I needs me some over the top grimdark is Warhammer 40K. 

 

If there's happiness in Warhammer 40K... you're doing it wrong.

 

Both Warhammers can be that way.

 

Unfortunately, Games Workshop went too dark and destroyed their fantasy setting now. It ended and chaos won.

 

 

I'll say this though. They know how to make a proper "Inquisition". I don't understand Bioware's take on the subject at all. It literally stands for nothing... except everyone getting along or something. Wtf

[Akrabra]

@Akrabra:  Only setting I needs me some over the top grimdark is Warhammer 40K. 

 

If there's happiness in Warhammer 40K... you're doing it wrong.

True enough, and that is why i prefer Warhammer Fantasy Battles! Well that isn't really any better, overall a pretty dark setting.

[Ashagar]

If we want to be technical a proper Inquisition, would be a very dull affair given it was simply a religious court, in fact the majority of European courts outside of Britain work exactly the way the Inquisition did minus the possibility of torture which apparently didn't happen nearly as much as people think and had strict legal restrictions in how it could be used.

 

Apparently threats of torture simple questioning and investigation was both far more commonly used and considered far more effective than torture. Executions not early as common was people rare as it was generally viewed that turning over people to the secular authorities was a failure to a save a soul. Out of the 44,674 recorded cases of the infamous Spanish Inquisition(which was controlled by the Spanish crown not the church) for instance there were only 1604 executions, 778 of which involved didn't involve literal death but the burning of the person in effigy.

[straykat]

If we want to be technical a proper Inquisition, would be a very dull affair given it was simply a religious court, in fact the majority of European courts outside of Britain work exactly the way the Inquisition did minus the possibility of torture which apparently didn't happen nearly as much as people think and had strict legal restrictions in how it could be used.

 

Apparently threats of torture simple questioning and investigation was both far more commonly used and considered far more effective than torture. Executions not early as common was people rare as it was generally viewed that turning over people to the secular authorities was a failure to a save a soul. Out of the 44,674 recorded cases of the infamous Spanish Inquisition(which was controlled by the Spanish crown not the church) for instance there were only 1604 executions, 778 of which involved didn't involve literal death but the burning of the person in effigy.

 

I don't think anyone wants to be technical though. More like, just dramatic and more factional. And more politics and intrigue. Inquisitions tend to care about specific visions and courses for the world. Not just simply saving everything in the world. And it's not abstract or generic as "restoring order".

[In Exile]

I don't actually find this to be the case in DA: I. I have a healthy amount of screenshots wherein BioWare decided to show the misery of the world through the environment. One in particular that comes to mind, for example, being a set of burned huts in the Exalted Plains, and within one of the huts are two skeletons, one medium-sized and one tiny. The larger skeleton is splayed out over the tiny one, and a sword is driven through both. We can all fill in the blanks, there. Additionally, I felt the letter quests conveyed small instances that demonstrated a larger statement about the state of Thedas.

 

The problem isn't that there isn't a set-piece that is dark - the problem is that there's nothing to illustrate it for the player apart from 1) stumbling across it and 2) focus on it. Part of setting the scene is drawing the attention of the player to the darkness. TW3 succeeds in illustrating darkness by focusing the attention of the player through events - e.g. there is a quest where you have to actively search through the remains of a battlefield. That quite a bit like the Exalted Plains, except that you're more directly dealing with human misery. 

 

In fact, let's use the Exalted Plains. That's a setting that's rife with death. The main "event" has to do with there being so many dead that you're getting endless waves of undead exterminating both the armies of Celene and Gaspard. But we don't see the Orlesian troops overrun with undead - screaming, dying, etc. with one or two rare exceptions. We get involved at the uplifting point - when we free empty areas and cut away to them becoming populated. All of this takes away the focus from the darkness, even though it should be there. 

 

Red lyrium is another example. This is awful - it turns people into itself. In Hushed Whispers does a good job of showing it, when you meet Fiona. But otherwise it's not something that's shown. 

[In Exile]

I don't think anyone wants to be technical though. More like, just dramatic and more factional. And more politics and intrigue. Inquisitions tend to care about specific visions and courses for the world. Not just simply saving everything in the world. And it's not abstract or generic as "restoring order".

 

But that's exactly what they want: to restore order. It just so happens that their view of "order" can be extreme and fanatical. The name "Inquisition" is still a poor one for the organization created, but frankly Bioware screwed itself by wasting "Seekers of Truth" in DA2. 

[Yumakooma]

I think the impression Inquisition wasn't so dark and gritty wasn't as strong until after Trespasser, when it can make the world seem uh, pretty elfy and magical. I don't think the 'high fantasy' is viewed as dark and gritty in the same way that a lot of people felt about the first 2 dragon age games. Its all down to opinion in the end, but I certainly felt all three games were pretty dark fantasy at points. Trespasser just directed Inquisition away from it (and so possibly DA4 if it continues down the same path), slightly... again though, just my opinion...

[straykat]

But that's exactly what they want: to restore order. It just so happens that their view of "order" can be extreme and fanatical. The name "Inquisition" is still a poor one for the organization created, but frankly Bioware screwed itself by wasting "Seekers of Truth" in DA2. 

 

What did they waste?

 

Nevermind. It probably doesn't matter. They wasted a lot of things from DA2. Par for the course.

[In Exile]

What did they waste?

Nevermind. It probably doesn't matter. They wasted a lot of things from DA2. Par for the course.

The name. I think they should not have created a separate organisation from the Seekers and instead used the name.

[straykat]

The name. I think they should not have created a separate organisation from the Seekers and instead used the name.

 

Ah.. I see. It did kind of seem like it was one and the same at one point. Just more Chantry focused. Like the dread it inspired on all sides in the Chantry and that little entry in Witch Hunt.

 

It's kind of funny to have both an Inquisitor now and a Seeker. Which should've been the same thing. Because the words are, basically.

[The Baconer]

The name. I think they should not have created a separate organisation from the Seekers and instead used the name.

 

The biggest hurdles in this scenario would be the implications of actually being a Seeker, further complicated by the schism. 

 

But I guess if such an approach were taken, certain elements would have turned out differently, or been dropped entirely (like the Tranquility nonsense). I guess it would have been better than the flaccid shitstains they (the Seekers) turned out to be. 

[Ashagar]

It likely didn't help that they built up in the lore how feared and powerful the seekers were in previous games and media like dawn of the seeker then killed them all off screen.

[MrMrPendragon]

I would like that "dark atmosphere" that you are hoping for, but only if it's not "fantasy-related".

 

Let me explain what I mean by that. Someone mentioned Envy messing with your mind and whatnot, mage elves killing each other, or demons attacking villages.

 

All of that just doesn't feel....real. It doesn't come across as dark enough because it's pure fantasy. Only when you actually look at it on paper do you see what the writers are going for. You can't have reactions for situations that will never happen in real life. There will never be demons messing with your head, giving you illusions, etc. Nor will there be a dragon swooping down from the sky and burn a city.

 

In the Witcher series, almost all the problems you come across with, except with the occasional monster attack, is all "realistic" - nobles waging wars, corrupt city officials taking advantage of poor citizens, racism, murder, rape, robberies - all real problems.

 

The other thing that makes the Witcher series seem "dark" is that you always feel like powerless against certain things, like there's always that one bad status quo that you will never be able to fix. There's almost always a price/consequence for every choice you make - if you make life better for one person, the other person gets sh*t. If you fight for freedom of the Northern Realms, the leader still doesn't do anything about the oppression of non-humans. There's always that one thing you can't fix.

 

Geralt does not have the power to stop any of these things. He sometimes tries, but he can't make the problem go away.

 

In Dragon Age, you're always the conquering hero, saving every single elf oppressed by humans, or villages tormented by bandits, etc. Not only that, the universe doesn't even make an effort to remind you that the very same things that make the Witcher series "dark" are all there! In the Witcher, it constantly reminds you of the dark world you're living it - whether it's through quests, actually showing all the bad stuff, or dialogue.

 

Dragon Age has slavery, wars, racism - all of it. Except you're put in a state where all of that conveniently never happens right before your eyes, or if it does, you can make the problem go away. It's almost the situation we have in the first world countries. A lot of us are oblivious to the happenings in war-torn or poor countries, so to us, the world is a fairly decent place to live in. THAT'S the kind of situation we're put in Dragon Age.

 

What makes something gritty is not just making a cauldron of evil things, you have to make these known AND making the players powerless against them.

 

Dragon Age goes "Codex: Something bad happened here X years ago". Why do I care? You're not even making me live in THAT world - the world where all the bad sh*t happens - you're just telling me about it.

[Medhia_Nox]

@MrMrPendragon:  Oh man... could you imagine this crowd if you couldn't save every pathetic elf?  Stop the persecution of every deranged blood mage? 

 

By and large... I don't think this is the "reality" crowd... this is the "idealistic wish fulfillment" crowd who wants social change to be a foregone conclusion.

 

Oh... and romances... can't forget the romances.

[ModernAcademic]

DRAGON AGE WAS A DARK GAME FULL OF DARKNESS. That's why it had a side quest where you gathered nugs and your pet mabari could pee on trees to get bonuses.

 

And help a cute and cheerful dwarf study abroad to one day become an Arcanist.

[Ashagar]

Off hand the Witcher and dragon age are both not what I would call remotely realistic even if you exclude the fantasy elements, they are simply fantasy games that appeal for some different sorts of power fantasies  and different levels of cynicism or idealism.

[AFA]

Doesn't have to be Drakengard or the Witcher, but returning to the tone of the first two games would be nice. I couldn't picture them doing the City Elf origin any more. The Dead Trenches, DA2's serial killer plotline, The total lack of evil companions was also kind of glaring, especially since Bioware can always turn out some good ones like Morrigan, Zaeed, or Jack.

 

I imagine the success and acclaim of the Witcher will drive them back to the grime, just like Skyrim pushed them towards an open world.

 

Also, as much as a liked them, Iron Bull and Dorian did some damage to their respective cultures. 

 

As far as fanservice goes, a dab would be nice. Again, nothing Witcher level, but a little. At least no more Disney princesses.

[Derrame]

The Witcher 2  gritty !!??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????  *facepalm*

no, not at all, The Witcher 2 is not gritty at all, it is colourful and happy and flourishing and thrifty

[AFA]

Origins runs on the old dated old unrealistic brown is somehow more real which it isn't and blood and guts is somehow gritty or scary. Blood and guts don't make something somehow more gritty or scary.

 

A good writer and director can invoke a air of suspense, grittiness and horror in even bright daylight settings or even simply a well lit room filled with people.

 

Nier did this very well. Perpetual daylight, bright colors, glorious music, humor, etc. The background story is truly horrifying, the world is in an awful state, and the story is one of the most heartbreaking in video game history. Being a semi-sequel to Drakengard kind of helps too.

[rapscallioness]

Dark and gritty is not necessarily about blood and gore. It's about an overall atmosphere and feeling.

 

The Fade has ripped open; demons are supposed to be pouring out of the sky. Meanwhile there's also 2 wars going on, but darn it if the Hinterlands is not the fluffiest bundle of beautiful cinnamon rolls you've ever seen. It's ridiculous. And it is the art direction.

 

The mage quest line was better, especially in that courtyard area. The lighting was very effective. Or even when I was playing FO4, they have these radiation storms that roll in out of nowhere. It's this sickly kind of pervasive green with this weird  lightning. It messed with your visibility, it was creepy - to me. That is what I would imagine a Breach in the Fade would be like hovering over the land with demons pouring out.

 

I think there should have been less rifts, and instead made them more difficult like little boss battles. Have about 3, or 4 big rifts in the Hinterlands; the area looks like a radiation storm all the time; demons wandering farther out from these rifts. Then as we start sealing the rifts, the green gaseous Fade stuff starts to lift. The land begins to look how it did before with each sealing.

 

Not every section needed to be green and creepy, but the Hinterlands was an important location and the first. It set the tone. But the Hinterlands did not visually represent what the narrative was telling us.

[nightscrawl]

In the Witcher series, almost all the problems you come across with, except with the occasional monster attack, is all "realistic" - nobles waging wars, corrupt city officials taking advantage of poor citizens, racism, murder, rape, robberies - all real problems.

So like, DA2?

[Jedi Comedian]

I think the impression Inquisition wasn't so dark and gritty wasn't as strong until after Trespasser, when it can make the world seem uh, pretty elfy and magical. I don't think the 'high fantasy' is viewed as dark and gritty in the same way that a lot of people felt about the first 2 dragon age games. Its all down to opinion in the end, but I certainly felt all three games were pretty dark fantasy at points. Trespasser just directed Inquisition away from it (and so possibly DA4 if it continues down the same path), slightly... again though, just my opinion...

[Jedi Comedian]

Loved Bull's betrayal.

[Jedi Comedian]

In DAI, the main character loses an arm.

In True Grit, the main character loses an arm.

Therefore, DAI has true grit.