388 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

That's because Kai Leng was rewritten in haste.

 

I don't know about his depth being different, but he was a helluva lot more clever in the original script. And he didn't beat his chest. He played his cards close to his chest.

 

Like that E-mail he sends you? Or his need to show both you and TIM that he's the #1 henchman. It seems to be his only goal. Or the side story about him stealing Andersons cereals...... etz

 

But yes, hasty Writing could be the cause, it certainly isn't due to quality Writing.

 

Maybe he was meant to be that way, even in those videos with him and TIM it seems clear that TIM isn't taking him too serious either but lets him have a go at it, he seriously seems to doubt KL's ability to handle Shepard and it is grinding KL's gears... That seems to be all there is to KL's story.

[straykat]

Like that E-mail he sends you? Or his need to show both you and TIM that he's the #1 henchman. It seems to be his only goal. Or the side story about him stealing Andersons cereals...... etz

 

But yes, hasty Writing could be the cause, it certainly isn't due to quality Writing.

 

None of it is in the game. A whole bunch of stuff was rewritten, but the original script had Kai Leng teaming up with the VS after they became a Spectre. He pretended to be an Alliance soldier. He planted ideas in their head that Shep couldn't be trusted.

 

It was more like Maya Brooks.

[Battlebloodmage]

None of it is in the game. A whole bunch of stuff was rewritten, but the original script had Kai Leng teaming up with the VS after they became a Spectre. He pretended to be an Alliance soldier. He planted ideas in their head that Shep couldn't be trusted.

 

It was more like Maya Brooks.

Why are all the cut contents better than what's in the actual game? 

[Shechinah]

None of it is in the game. A whole bunch of stuff was rewritten, but the original script had Kai Leng teaming up with the VS after they became a Spectre. He pretended to be an Alliance soldier. He planted ideas in their head that Shep couldn't be trusted.

 

But that's... that has the potential to be awesome! He's employing deception and subterfuge to manipulate someone by playing on their existing feelings like their doubts. Its competent! It's clever! That Kai Leng sounds like a competent and clever bastard!

 

Do you know why it was reworked?
 

[straykat]

But that's... that has the potential to be awesome! He's employing deception and subterfuge to manipulate someone by playing on their existing feelings like their doubts. Its competent! It's clever! That Kai Leng sounds like a competent and clever bastard!

 

Do you know why it was reworked?
 

 

I don't know why, but I suspect it was because it was tied to so many other plots..

 

Even Javik became DLC because of this rewrite. Originally, that's where you meet the VS and Kai Leng first.. on Eden Prime, where both of you are following leads about Protheans. It came to a head at Thessia (the big showdown with the VS happens there, instead of the Cerberus Coup... and the Cereberus Coup was entirely different too. You had more Kasumi and Thane involvement.. it was about the indoctrinated Hanar, working with Terra Firma. Charles Saracino showed up, of all people). It's like dominoes, I guess. Once something changed, a bunch of other things did too.

[Natureguy85]

I don't know why, but I suspect it was because it was tied to so many other plots..

 

Even Javik became DLC because of this rewrite. Originally, that's where you meet the VS and Kai Leng first.. on Eden Prime, where both of you are following leads about Protheans. It came to a head at Thessia (the big showdown with the VS happens there, instead of the Cerberus Coup... and the Cereberus Coup was entirely different too. You had more Kasumi and Thane involvement.. it was about the indoctrinated Hanar, working with Terra Firma. Charles Saracino showed up, of all people). It's like dominoes, I guess. Once something changed, a bunch of other things did too.

 

Javik became DLC to get another $10 or whatever out of customers.

[straykat]

Javik became DLC to get another $10 or whatever out of customers.

 

I don't know if they set out to do that though.. i think the time constraints forced them to slim a bunch of things.. and he was relegated to a shorter/less integrated DLC.

 

Pretty much everything people complain about though seems tied to these story changes. Even small things like Emily Wong. She had a bigger part once.

[Lady Artifice]

It's so depressing to think of what might have been.

[Elhanan]

It's so depressing to think of what might have been.

Perhaps, but reality often is somewhat overwhelmed by 'What might have been' scenarios.

While I would prefer the absence of Space Ninja's, and a re-design of the final encounter of ever spawning Reapers; am good with most of ME3, and consider it much better than ME2 which I have only played a single time.

[straykat]

 and consider it much better than ME2 which I have only played a single time.

 

We all have our faults.

[I Am Robot]

I honestly think  that, as far as the villain goes, the most important thing is that they command respect. It doesn't matter if they're likeable or not, I guess it does help if their story makes sense, but ultimately, that isn't essential.

 

Think of the Joker for example. We don't know and don't understand why he does what he does (which is one his main selling points as a character), but he is so good at what he does that you just go 'dayum'. In every recent iteration of the joker, this point has come across really well; that despite his insanity, he must be treated with utmost respect as a criminal.

 

The Star Wars franchise has a lot of fans but I personally think even the original trilogy is overrated, and that it's success rests largely on the Darth Vader character. He's just so powerful that he's omnipresent, not literally of course, but his influence has a seemingly infinite reach.

 

A very recent example would be the Alejandro character from Sicario. Regardless of whether the audience like him, dislikes him, relates to him or hates him, he's a beast, so he's a worthy villain for the protagonist to be going up against. Of course that's not what that movie is about exactly, I'm just using that particular character to make a point.  

[StringerBell]

This is why we should care about the villain:

[Vox Draco]

Yeah, villains ... At least I think its save to say Bioware cannot fall any lower in that regard as with our beloved "Starchild" ... wait a second, need to puke at the memories about that ... okay...better now...

 

As I am just playing DAI again (and rediscovering some faint interest in an RPG with a space-setting along the way) I feel like its a lot more important to Bioware to actually use the villain, show him/her, have the villain interact frequently with the hero and always he needs to be a bit ahead of us. And even if we thwart some of his plans it should still not feel like we are wiping the floor with him (DAI suffers from that, sadly)

 

People always clamour for the "deeper" villain and his motivations and whatever...I'd say yeah, okay, but a moustache-twirling cliche is all good, as long as he is USED well, and PRESENTED well. In terms of appearance, actions, voice-acting (!), interaction with the characters, and we need to SEE why he is evil, what he DOES, and why its IMPERATIVE to stop him. Corypheus just kinda dissapeared after Haven for most of the game, probably watching me and my party gathering elfroots in the Hinterlands (will this return in MEA too? Driving around with the Mako on Hinterland-Planet gathering Deuterium? *shudders*)

 

Or just give us two villains - an example: the normal evil guy like Supreme Chancellor Snoke or his General Hux seem to be, and a subordinate like Kylo Ren with more agenda and potential for conflicting story-telling? We kinda had this already, of course ... in Mass Effect One...nostalgia is a good thing, Bioware ^^

[RZIBARA]

So, you mean like Saren?

[Quarian Master Race]

So, you mean like Saren?

i mean like Boba Fett. Best villain ever. Dem 5 lines. Dat helmeted air of mystery. Dat filtered voice

Making kids cry with him in Battlefront has just reaffirmed my undying love.

[Vox Draco]

i mean like Boba Fett. Best villain ever. Dem 5 lines. Dat helmeted air of mystery. Dat filtered voice

Making kids cry with him in Battlefront has just reaffirmed my undying love.

 

Dat humiliating death when a blind man hit him by accident, to be digested alive by a hentai-tentacle-vagina-monster ^^ At least he did fire his rope-gun, more than Captain Phasma of Tarth did ^^

[In Exile]

Loghain is the entire reason you have to go to each place to enforce your treaties. Without his actions, some other Warden would do that while you stayed with Duncan fighting Darkspawn in the South, looking for the Archdemon. He sends assassins after you and poisons Eamon. I forget his connection to the other quests other than reaching out to Orzammar unsuccessfully.

That doesn't really make him seen as the antagonist so much as it makes him a bit of a bumbling moron. He's also responsible for egging on Uldred at the Tower but had no connection to the Brecilian forest or Haven. The problem with Loghain is that apart from sending Zev after you is that he doesn't actually do anything. His coup at Ostagar isn't really aimed at the protagonist, and the civil war is totally off screen apart from some chanter board quests. Hell even when we get to Denerim his city guard doesn't care we're a GW and goes so far as to give us a job. I don't think Loghain had enough presence in DAO to count as the main antagonist. He's just the antagonist around for the longest with dialogue.

[Draining Dragon]

I just want to say that the best Bioware villain is Sun Li, followed by Saren Arterius.

[ThomasBlaine]

I don't even know where to start disagreeing. Saren, TIM and the Reapers are all perfectly fleshed-out villains with understandable and powerful motivations. Corypheus and the Archdemon are pretty stereotypical, but all three DA games have plenty of cool and human villains besides those two, and Loghain alone approaches Severus Snape's level of character complexity. And that's just Bioware. The Fallout games have original and understandable villains. The Witcher series has original and understandable villains. Ditto the Star Wars games.

 

I agree that villains shouldn't just be cardboard cut-outs, but the idea that that's all we're getting in western RPGs today is ludicrous. If anything, we're in the middle of a golden age of humanized and well-written bad guys with just a few world-eater hiccups here and there, and personally I'm loving it.

[Natureguy85]

That doesn't really make him seen as the antagonist so much as it makes him a bit of a bumbling moron. He's also responsible for egging on Uldred at the Tower but had no connection to the Brecilian forest or Haven. The problem with Loghain is that apart from sending Zev after you is that he doesn't actually do anything. His coup at Ostagar isn't really aimed at the protagonist, and the civil war is totally off screen apart from some chanter board quests. Hell even when we get to Denerim his city guard doesn't care we're a GW and goes so far as to give us a job. I don't think Loghain had enough presence in DAO to count as the main antagonist. He's just the antagonist around for the longest with dialogue.

 

Well, those two things are not mutually exclusive. As for the two locations you mention, Loghain's actions are why the Warden is the one going to the Forest to ask the Elves for aid and going to Haven to seek the Urn of Sacred Ashes. And ultimately, he is the one keeping the Warden from gaining the support of the nation to fight the darkspawn, not knowing the Warden's are necessary. While the civil war may be offscreen, so is the Darkspawn incursion after Ostagar.

 

However, you are right that it could be argued that he isn't targeting the Warden directly beyond sending Zevran and the Warden is more antagonist to Loghain than the other way around.

[Midnight Bliss]

MEA desperately needs a villain like Xanatos.

 

I'm all tapped out on galaxy destroying ultimate evil/ancient horrible race who wants to kill everyone/pscyho who serves ultimate evil baddies: for a long while..

[Dunmer of Redoran]

I want a flawed villain. For example, one who fears the protagonist and does a very poor job hiding that fact. No sympathy for the villain either. Tragic villains' stories undermine those of the heroes they face. But ANCIENT IMMORTAL VILLAINS BRAAGGHGHGH are just plain boring. Give me a villain who is 100% not sympathetic, and is flawed. Someone who is very satisfying to defeat, but who also doesn't need a deus ex machina in order to be defeated.

 

We don't get those in many video games nowadays unfortunately. Sometimes less is more. Keep the villain simple.

[slimgrin]

Whatever they do, the villain has to have back story and personality. If they do another ancient evil villain because it's ancient and evil...ima tear my f*cking hair out.  

[Natureguy85]

I want a flawed villain. For example, one who fears the protagonist and does a very poor job hiding that fact. No sympathy for the villain either. Tragic villains' stories undermine those of the heroes they face. But ANCIENT IMMORTAL VILLAINS BRAAGGHGHGH are just plain boring. Give me a villain who is 100% not sympathetic, and is flawed. Someone who is very satisfying to defeat, but who also doesn't need a deus ex machina in order to be defeated.

 

We don't get those in many video games nowadays unfortunately. Sometimes less is more. Keep the villain simple.

 

Ever seen Dirty Harry? What about Scorpio?

[Medhia_Nox]

Here's the problem... those shows, books and comics you all watch/read have scenes about the villain.  Entire episodes sometimes devoted to the "why" of what they're doing.  Entire seasons, novels, story arcs devoted to their development.

 

Here's what I propose.

 

- Play the main protagonist and have you work toward something for the first quarter of the game.

 

THEN

 

- Play the main antagonist and destroy what the main protagonist worked toward for the first quarter of the game.

 

THEN

 

- Play that main protagonist again for the last have the game.