388 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

Here's the problem... those shows, books and comics you all watch/read have scenes about the villain.  Entire episodes sometimes devoted to the "why" of what they're doing.  Entire seasons, novels, story arcs devoted to their development.

 

Here's what I propose.

 

- Play the main protagonist and have you work toward something for the first quarter of the game.

 

THEN

 

- Play the main antagonist and destroy what the main protagonist worked toward for the first quarter of the game.

 

THEN

 

- Play that main protagonist again for the last have the game. 

 

I don't know about this as a long section, especially undermining your own progress, but taking control of the villain in a fight that the protagonist is supposed to lose would still allow the player to win. How often do we complain about an enemy either cheating through BS or winning in a cutscene after being trashed in gameplay?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Natureguy85:  My progress is to tell a compelling story.  *shrugs*

[ZipZap2000]

I don't know why, but I suspect it was because it was tied to so many other plots..

Even Javik became DLC because of this rewrite. Originally, that's where you meet the VS and Kai Leng first.. on Eden Prime, where both of you are following leads about Protheans. It came to a head at Thessia (the big showdown with the VS happens there, instead of the Cerberus Coup... and the Cereberus Coup was entirely different too. You had more Kasumi and Thane involvement.. it was about the indoctrinated Hanar, working with Terra Firma. Charles Saracino showed up, of all people). It's like dominoes, I guess. Once something changed, a bunch of other things did too.

And you end up with a watered down version of what should have been beyond exceptional.

[RZIBARA]

i mean like Boba Fett. Best villain ever. Dem 5 lines. Dat helmeted air of mystery. Dat filtered voice

Making kids cry with him in Battlefront has just reaffirmed my undying love.

 

Well I never said anything about Boba Fett, but ok. 

 

Boba is a badass, so many littles things about him in Empire that made him awesome. Too bad they ruined him in ROTJ and AOTC (not surprising, prequels ruined everything). 

 

It's a shame he's been nerfed to oblivion now in SWBF, since the latest patch.  

[LinksOcarina]

And you end up with a watered down version of what should have been beyond exceptional.

 

Exceptional is pushing it.

 

More like "does it even work on the page" compared to what we got. 

 

It's easy to make something written down look fantastic and make sense, it's another thing entirely to animate and show it in-game without becoming convoluted. 

[Battlebloodmage]

I'm not sure if anyone ever play Suikoden but a lot of JRPG games often go into the villains' motive. In Suikoden 2, one of the NPCs, your best friend, suddenly betray you even you're about to achieve unification and starts another war, he believes war can only achieve through total domination. There are several flashbacks between your game and your best friend to show what he's up to and what his motivation for certain decisions are. In Suikoden 3, one of the playable characters from the previous game want to destroy the world due to a prophecy, you get to play a chapter as him as well. In Suikoden 5, most of the villains' motivations are the same as the player, but they just have a different way of doing it. I think what Bioware often lacks is the perspective of the villains. In ME2, it was cool how they do it with the Illusive Man, we get scenes with just him. I want more to do with the villains and why they are so hell bent on destroying the world. Even if he wants to destroy the world for the sake of evulz, it could still be made interesting. Moreover, if there's a tie to the protagonist in certain way, maybe not even related to the protagonist's background but something happens in the game that make it more personal for the protagonist wanting to stop the villain. Plunging the world in 1000 years of darkness is not really a personal connection but more of a duty for the protagonist to stop the villain.

[WillieStyle]

One thing I'd like to see more of is a foil who isn't quite the villain. A scoundrel who occasionally gets the better of the player without causing a Thessia-class catastrophe.

See:

Doug Judy from Brooklyn 99,

Saemon Haverian from Baldur's Gate 2.

 

These sort of characters make the conflicts in the game a bit more personal and engaging without forcing the player to experience losses with potentially catastrophic consequences.  They also prevent the "Player Character as Invincible god" effect by occasionally cutting the PC down to size.  Also, they're just plain fun.

[Quarian Master Race]

Dat humiliating death when a blind man hit him by accident, to be digested alive by a hentai-tentacle-vagina-monster ^^ At least he did fire his rope-gun, more than Captain Phasma of Tarth did ^^

You shutup. Boba lives


^canon

 

Well I never said anything about Boba Fett, but ok. 

 

Boba is a badass, so many littles things about him in Empire that made him awesome. Too bad they ruined him in ROTJ and AOTC (not surprising, prequels ruined everything). 

 

It's a shame he's been nerfed to oblivion now in SWBF, since the latest patch.  

I know, but the thread is about villains and you reminded me of him.

Lucas originally planned on putting in a scene in ROTJ where he climbs out of the pit in the 2004 remaster, but decided against it for taking focus away from the scene happening above.

Seems Disney is trying to forget the prequels existed to an extent, which I honestly can't say I'm too upset about.
 
He's still good in Battlefront if you don't camp far away. I still go on 50+ killstreaks in the big modes on occasion. He's pretty hard to play against a good Luke in HvV without the guided missile, though.

also, did you hear the speculation around a revival of 1313?
http://www.slashfilm...r-wars-tv-show/
 

[Vox Draco]

One thing I'd like to see more of is a foil who isn't quite the villain. A scoundrel who occasionally gets the better of the player without causing a Thessia-class catastrophe.

See:

Doug Judy from Brooklyn 99,

Saemon Haverian from Baldur's Gate 2.

 

These sort of characters make the conflicts in the game a bit more personal and engaging without forcing the player to experience losses with potentially catastrophic consequences.  They also prevent the "Player Character as Invincible god" effect by occasionally cutting the PC down to size.  Also, they're just plain fun.

 

Speaking of Baldurs Gate 2 ... aynone want a Yoshimo? A char we recruit early on (though less shady ^^) and who betrays us? Just imagine a char like Liara Tsoni (sympathy-factor) halfway turning on us. Could be a nice Darth Revan/Virmire-survivor-moment for this series?

 

Especially if we could still redeem that char, or further condemn him/her after a while, depending on our choices. In fact, these "personal" small choices may be the way to go for Bioware. Not the big, galaxy-altering decisions, but the small ones like that, which still have an impact on us emotionally...

[RZIBARA]

You shutup. Boba lives


^canon

 

I know, but the thread is about villains and you reminded me of him.

Lucas originally planned on putting in a scene in ROTJ where he climbs out of the pit in the 2004 remaster, but decided against it for taking focus away from the scene happening above.

Seems Disney is trying to forget the prequels existed to an extent, which I honestly can't say I'm too upset about.
 
He's still good in Battlefront if you don't camp far away. I still go on 50+ killstreaks in the big modes on occasion. He's pretty hard to play against a good Luke in HvV without the guided missile, though.

also, did you hear the speculation around a revival of 1313?
http://www.slashfilm...r-wars-tv-show/
 

 

They put enough garbage into the special editions, its a good thing they didnt add that in if you want my opinion. would have felt tacked on. 

 

He's not good at all anymore in HvsV which is my fav mode.

 

Revival of 1313 would be excellent, i want a good star wars game again. Battlefront was disappointing on so many levels.

[Natureguy85]

@Natureguy85:  My progress is to tell a compelling story.  *shrugs*

 

Then you're the writer, not the player.

[In Exile]

Well, those two things are not mutually exclusive. As for the two locations you mention, Loghain's actions are why the Warden is the one going to the Forest to ask the Elves for aid and going to Haven to seek the Urn of Sacred Ashes. And ultimately, he is the one keeping the Warden from gaining the support of the nation to fight the darkspawn, not knowing the Warden's are necessary. While the civil war may be offscreen, so is the Darkspawn incursion after Ostagar.

 

However, you are right that it could be argued that he isn't targeting the Warden directly beyond sending Zevran and the Warden is more antagonist to Loghain than the other way around.

 

But  antagonist does more than just accidentally causing the main plot. Hawke's actions are why the Inquisitor has to deal with the Elder One, but that doesn't make Hawke the antagonist in DA:I. Or Varric, for that matter. 

And Loghain doesn't even stop the Warden for getting support for fighting the darkspawn. You get Eamon and Teagan on your side almost immediately, and just about everyone you meet in Fereldan proper is actively working to help you. 

 

I'm not saying Loghain isn't an antagonist, anyway. I'm just saying he's not the main antagonist. 

[Joseph Warrick]

When Bioware makes good villains, the story of the game is really their story.

 

In DAO we get cutscenes showing what's going on with Loghain. How he feels at different times. There's also a strong connection to you. The guy who betrayed you. Once Loghain is dealt with, killing the archdemon is just a formality.

 

In Jade Empire we spend the game learning about Master Li. Who he is, who his relatives are, what he did, how he did it, and what he will do next. And he's a father figure to us, a very real connection. (why oh why did he laugh maniacally in the statue ending, Bioware pls that's so out of character)

 

Poor old Cory had no chance. He's interesting on paper but can't seem to do well in games. He's too ugly to have his story featured as the main thing in a game. If Inquisition were a completely different game, it would have us digging on Tevinter history to find out about him (the "finding Cory's true name" war table operation made me hope, albeit briefly).

[Natureguy85]

But  antagonist does more than just accidentally causing the main plot. Hawke's actions are why the Inquisitor has to deal with the Elder One, but that doesn't make Hawke the antagonist in DA:I. Or Varric, for that matter. 

And Loghain doesn't even stop the Warden for getting support for fighting the darkspawn. You get Eamon and Teagan on your side almost immediately, and just about everyone you meet in Fereldan proper is actively working to help you. 

 

I'm not saying Loghain isn't an antagonist, anyway. I'm just saying he's not the main antagonist. 

 

Yeah and that's a fair argument. My reason for calling him the main antagonist is that, while he isn't directly involved in every plot point, he is more in the Warden's face and way than the Archdemon and the blight, which are more looming in the background to be dealt with after Loghain. With the Deep Roads, you're the one going into the Darkspawn's house. Loghain isn't accidentally causing the plot; he made conscious decisions which undermine the ability of the Wardens to defeat the Blight, which is the protagonist's goal. You could be right though.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Natureguy85:  Not at all, facing interactive "loss" doesn't transition me to being a writer. 

 

When I play an RPG the inventory/stats/etc. are just mechanical vehicles to tell a story.  My progress is in story.  It doesn't have to be that way for you.  Many people prefer to focus on items and stat numbers. 

[Natureguy85]

@Natureguy85:  Not at all, facing interactive "loss" doesn't transition me to being a writer. 

 

When I play an RPG the inventory/stats/etc. are just mechanical vehicles to tell a story.  My progress is in story.  It doesn't have to be that way for you.  Many people prefer to focus on items and stat numbers. 

 

You said your progress is to tell a compelling story. The writer is the teller, the player is the consumer. Gameplay wise, it can be frustrating to have your progress undone.

[In Exile]

Yeah and that's a fair argument. My reason for calling him the main antagonist is that, while he isn't directly involved in every plot point, he is more in the Warden's face and way than the Archdemon and the blight, which are more looming in the background to be dealt with after Loghain. With the Deep Roads, you're the one going into the Darkspawn's house. Loghain isn't accidentally causing the plot; he made conscious decisions which undermine the ability of the Wardens to defeat the Blight, which is the protagonist's goal. You could be right though.

 

We're not very far apart, ultimately. I don't disagree that Loghain is the most featured antagonist. I'm just not sure I'd describe him as "main" because, ultimately, I don't think DA:O has a very good or coherent central plot or central conflict. 

[rspanther]

Maybe we'll be the villains.

 

We enter a new galaxy and the first civilization we meet claims to be oppressed by an "evil" empire, so we help them. Only they turn out to be that galaxies batarians, and the "evil" empire is that galaxies Council.

[LinksOcarina]

Maybe we'll be the villains.

 

We enter a new galaxy and the first civilization we meet claims to be oppressed by an "evil" empire, so we help them. Only they turn out to be that galaxies batarians, and the "evil" empire is that galaxies Council.

 

I am not against this idea...

 

A game where you play the antagonist to the story would be interesting, although I don't know if it would work in Mass Effect. 

 

Maybe Dragon Age...

[Lady Artifice]

I am not against this idea...

 

A game where you play the antagonist to the story would be interesting, although I don't know if it would work in Mass Effect. 

 

Maybe Dragon Age...

 

But we can't be the antagonist. The very fact that we're the player character ensures our role as the protagonist, whether our actions can be perceived as villainous or not. 

[CronoDragoon]

I feel like there needs to be an invested interest into developing villains. This is something that is often lacking in Western RPG in general, it's mostly just doing a bunch of sidequests then suddenly fight the big bad, but the big bad is just appeared so suddenly and has no real tie to the protagonist that it doesn't really make me feel anything when fighting them. It would be cool to have some ties or personal reasons for why the protagonist wants to stop the villain asides from plunging the world into 1000 years of darkness. Maybe the villain kicked the protagonist's puppy or something, I want more interactions with the villains and more developing arc and story of some sort related to the protagonist and the villain.

 

 

Speaking of Baldurs Gate 2 ... aynone want a Yoshimo? A char we recruit early on (though less shady ^^) and who betrays us? Just imagine a char like Liara Tsoni (sympathy-factor) halfway turning on us. Could be a nice Darth Revan/Virmire-survivor-moment for this series?
 
Especially if we could still redeem that char, or further condemn him/her after a while, depending on our choices. In fact, these "personal" small choices may be the way to go for Bioware. Not the big, galaxy-altering decisions, but the small ones like that, which still have an impact on us emotionally...

[Medhia_Nox]

But we can't be the antagonist. The very fact that we're the player character ensures our role as the protagonist, whether our actions can be perceived as villainous or not. 

 

I was going to write this, but then I started thinking about it.

 

For us to play an antagonist... the story must be about someone else.  We try, but must fail, to thwart the plans of this other character - because no protagonist can fail at his/her own tale (that doesn't mean failure can never come for this character - just that for the context of the story, success must be obtained)

 

If you played an assassin for an entire game, and your goal was to stop a man from becoming king... but you fail, and they become king... I would consider you the antagonist of the story.

 

That we get to be one of the characters must be considered in "who" the protagonist is in any given story.  Protagonist is the main character... but we could be playing a bit character in a story. 

 

Note:  I'm not saying that would be enjoyable at all, but I believe in the hands of a creative team it could be very interesting.

[Master Warder Z_]

For us to play an antagonist... the story must be about someone else.  We try, but must fail, to thwart the plans of this other character 

 

Eh...

 

<.<

 

Not every Antagonist fails.

[MCG]

100% agree, I'm so tired of the "I'm taking the world and kinda end it at the same time for no other reason than because I can" villain BS. I want a villain that has set motives and good reasons for the things he/she does. Reasons that make you question your own actions and morals. Instead they dish out ye ole trusty monster bad guy you feel nothing for.

Well Solas seems unlikely to follow that formula, he looks like a promising villain. Slightly off topic but y'know.

[Master Warder Z_]

 he looks like a promising villain.

 

No he doesn't.

 

For one the baldness is hideous.