388 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

Sarevok >> Irenicus

[Battlebloodmage]

A villain who killed the player character's waifu sometime after the emotional commitment/nookie scene? 

 

Sign me the heck up. Pathos. Motivation! Delicious revenge.

 

Though I suspect if it was unavoidable, there would be much raging. And it'd have to be done very, very well.

 

Is he a great villain yet?

[Han Shot First]

I'm very new to this forum (have never posted in one before until days ago).

 

[Han Shot First]

A villain who killed the player character's waifu sometime after the emotional commitment/nookie scene? 

 

Sign me the heck up. Pathos. Motivation! Delicious revenge.

 

Though I suspect if it was unavoidable, there would be much raging. And it'd have to be done very, very well.

 

I think it could be interesting if it was done well. 

 

People would rage though. Some gamers can't handle anything except a happily ever after epilogue.

[WarGriffin]

 

Is he a great villain yet?

 

Kai doesn't even count as character though... -since any attempt to give him something of character either is alot of Tell don't show or comes off as Him and shepard are five year olds on the play ground- and Kai's not allowed to be built up as a threat cause doing so would hurt the fans feelings or something.

 

I mean if he was just a Silent faceless Male Phantom who just showed up to ruin your day, What would change?

arguable His anonymity would give him something for you to wonder about since its just a Generic grunt getting the better of Shepard XD

[Battlebloodmage]

I think it could be interesting if it was done well. 

 

People would rage though. Some gamers can't handle anything except a happily ever after epilogue.

Depending, would it only happen to a specific character or just the character you're in a romance with? If it's the same situation with ME3 where almost all of ME3 LIs for femShep either died or abandoned her then it would be a pretty crappy way of implementing it. Even Miranda's one is optional. Basically Jacob cheated, Thane died, and if you romanced either those two, you can't continue a romance with Garrus, you basically only have Kaidan and if you choose Ashley, femShep basically has no option. I'm down for sad or tragic but as long as it's not biased in how they handle it. 

[Hadeedak]

 

 

Is he a great villain yet?

 

 

You do have to admit that that's the most interesting thing he does... And generating the most rage.

 

Well-done is sort of very debatable, though. If Shepard was allowed to care about Thane for more than a few seconds, I'd be a lot more postive about that. I quite like Miranda's optional death, though.

[Natureguy85]

What they need was making the primary antagonist constantly present in the narrative rather than relegate them out of sight until the very end of the game. That's why ME1's Saren and ME2's TIM simply... work... from start, middle and end, they were there.. 

 

The Reapers, Archdemon, Corypheus themselves have much more in common with Voldermort or Sauron. They are the overarching threat that you need to deal with but they're so much a big of the threat, you don't directly encounter them until the end. You still deal with their lesser minions or hateful minor antagonist (Loghain, Kai Leng) but as the result, you have less connection to the major villain and it does make you feel less interested in them rather than the minors.

 

This is why I like Bioware now... they know this and it work with KotFE. Instead of a singular narrative, you get more multiple narrative that wasn't just within the perspective of the main protagonist. This allow you as a player to experience the story, picking up the things that you won't normally able to  know in a single first person narrative. 

 

I like this and have expressed similar thoughts, but I want to disagree about TIM. You're spot on about Origins. The looming threat was the Darkspawn and the Archdemon, but Loghain was the primary antagonist. However, the darkspawn army was off in the south and was still approaching. In Mass Effect 3, which I assume you meant because TIM is not an antagonist is 2, TIM is the primary Antagonist while the Reapers are around and the major threat. However, unlike the Darkspawn in Origins, the Reapers have already arrived. Loghain's analog is TIM, not Kai Leng. Leng would be more like Howe.

 

 

Another point - can the Council/politicians/guys in charge/Alliance not be a bunch of dumbasses who can't see the big problems?  Can we NOT be the only one who truly understands the terrible threat, fighting the authorities who all want to look the other way?  ME1 is super bad for that.

 

That was DA:O, and all of ME1 and ME2 as well as a bit of DA:I.  I'm tired of it.  Hows about they actually be competent ppl who acknowledge the threat, respect your abilities, talk to you all nice like, and entrust you to do the right thing whilst they try super hard from their end as well?

 

What? It made perfect sense in ME1. All they had was Shepard's word and a vague threat. It made no sense after that.

 

 

Hell yeah. Ultimate rivalmance.

Fall passionately in lust, do the deed then find out they're the antagonist.

The story then becomes a struggle between sexual tension and having to kill them.

 

Alpha Protocol did that a bit.

 

 

The only thing I wan to feel for the antag is hatred. I don't want to sympathize, or understand where they are coming from. Only their defeat is the priority.

 

You must or would like the Dirty Harry movies. Sometimes complex villains are cool, but I also love movies where the scumbag villain dies horribly.

 

 

It must be someone with a strong personality like Aria.

 

You either love or hate her. There's no middle ground.

I have a 3rd option. Disappointment. All that build up and she does nothing but sit on a couch.

 

 

I'd love a final confrontation with the villain that had some emotional weight behind it. 

 

Something like the final duel in Once Upon a Time in the West. Not necessarily in how it plays out of course, but in the way it makes you feel. 

 

That was awesome. I've never seen the movie so I'm sure it would have more impact then, but the scene communicated what I really needed o know. The only thing I'd change is that I think the initial walk up is too long, though I liked the music. I love the dead silence when they first zoom in on man in tan.

 

 

 

Chart for creating the perfect Hero villain

 

 

When I first saw the new Storm Trooper helmets, I thought they looked pretty slick. With this picture and the funny video, I can't not see it looking like a giant duck beak.

 

 

 

 

 

Is he a great villain yet?

 

Leng didn't kill Thane. Thane jumped on his sword. I hate that scene.

[aoibhealfae]

I like this and have expressed similar thoughts, but I want to disagree about TIM. You're spot on about Origins. The looming threat was the Darkspawn and the Archdemon, but Loghain was the primary antagonist. However, the darkspawn army was off in the south and was still approaching. In Mass Effect 3, which I assume you meant because TIM is not an antagonist is 2, TIM is the primary Antagonist while the Reapers are around and the major threat. However, unlike the Darkspawn in Origins, the Reapers have already arrived. Loghain's analog is TIM, not Kai Leng. Leng would be more like Howe.

 

 

TIM was already a default antagonist for my Sole Survivor Shepard, hard to see someone who tried to kill you some years back as a friend. But generally he's just being subtle about his manipulations and he's always double speak and lace his threats with smiles. He want you to be on his team, he want your trust but at the same time he does his best at damaging your reputation and indirectly sabotage every efforts and threatened the lives of the people you care. He have Joker and Chakwas on board before you even say yes and he crewed you with the most gullible and nice Cerberus crew that consisted of civilians and former Alliance so you will forget how his true followers would kill themselves the moment they're captured. He give sad excuses when you found out that he used VS as a lure to Horizon. In EVERY missions' report at the aftermath, he planted his people everywhere. He tried to make you feel emotional invested to his cause, make you go to Freedom's Progress and the derelict Collector Ship just so you could see what the Collectors did to humans.... while he already have his people on the derelict Reaper looking for a way to get through the relay. In the end, he's selling you hard about how the reaper technology would help humanity and then went sputtering mad when you ignore him and reveal his true face. If you miss all this in ME2, you will feel like he's extremely out of character in ME3. 

 

He is what you called an ethical villain or anti-villain. "He means well but his methods are barbaric." Its subtle antagonist thing like Moriarty, Senator Palpatine, Saruman, Grand Enchanter Orsino...

[Natureguy85]

TIM was already a default antagonist for my Sole Survivor Shepard, hard to see someone who tried to kill you some years back as a friend. But generally he's just being subtle about his manipulations and he's always double speak and lace his threats with smiles. He want you to be on his team, he want your trust but at the same time he does his best at damaging your reputation and indirectly sabotage every efforts and threatened the lives of the people you care. He have Joker and Chakwas on board before you even say yes and he crewed you with the most gullible and nice Cerberus crew that consisted of civilians and former Alliance so you will forget how his true followers would kill themselves the moment they're captured. He give sad excuses when you found out that he used VS as a lure to Horizon. In EVERY missions' report at the aftermath, he planted his people everywhere. He tried to make you feel emotional invested to his cause, make you go to Freedom's Progress and the derelict Collector Ship just so you could see what the Collectors did to humans.... while he already have his people on the derelict Reaper looking for a way to get through the relay. In the end, he's selling you hard about how the reaper technology would help humanity and then went sputtering mad when you ignore him and reveal his true face. If you miss all this in ME2, you will feel like he's extremely out of character in ME3. 

 

He is what you called an ethical villain or anti-villain. "He means well but his methods are barbaric." Its subtle antagonist thing like Moriarty, Senator Palpatine, Saruman, Grand Enchanter Orsino...

 

Well TIM isn't an antagonist in ME2 because he isnt acting against Shepard.  In ME2, TIM isn't a friend, but he isn't an enemy either. I see it more as the enemy of my enemy is my friend or lesser of two evils situation. Sure he was always trying to manipulate Shepard to his cause, but he was opposed to the Reapers. He just wanted Cerberus to come out on top of the aftermath. 

 

He's clearly Indoctrinated in ME3. I don't see any similarities to the other characters. Palpatine was always evil. He set up the conflict in the first place rather than taking advantage one already occurring. Sarumon openly and willingly worked with the Big Bad Sauron but hoped to take his power. The latter bit has some similarities, but TIM wasn't consciously collaborating with the Reapers until the end. Orsino went crazy at the end.

[Jedi Comedian]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=mRe8J4scGtU

[Jedi Comedian]

I liked you so much more in the Original Trilogy, Han (lovable rogue and not father to spoiled brat like in TFA).

[aoibhealfae]

An antagonist doesn't always need to be a force that 'works against' protagonist. It can merely represent an obstacle than the protagonist have to overcome. That obstacle can be anything from megalomaniac businessperson to self-esteem issues to bad weather. This is basic 101 in writing.

 

I'm not saying he is the primary antagonist in ME2, that distinction still belong to Harbinger. TIM is an obstacle that Shepard had to content with. TIM owned Shepard for the entirety of the game. EDI was obligated to spy on Shepard, Kelly too, Miranda report every thing to TIM, everyone in the galaxy think Shepard is working for Cerberus and nobody trust you and nobody to turn to except for the man in the high castle... the only way you can achieve freedom from his clutches was by refusing the only thing he wanted that only you alone can give to him. Of course, as a complete renegade, you can choose to sympathise with him and try to empathize to his efforts but after he's done with you, he still betrays you. He don't care about you, he's just using you for his endgame.

 

Palpatine and TIM are both masters at manipulation. As a Senator, he is just a solitary Sith Lord trying to wage a war in an era when Jedi is abundant. For decades he hides himself in the open (honestly, for an average Sith Lord this is very humiliating and degrading), sacrificed a couple of his apprentices and his patience was rewarded and he was able to infiltrate the republic and ease his way through as the Supreme Chancellor. But he still need Anakin as a catalyst in his plot to lead to the complete annihilation of the Jedi Order.

 

Saruman isn't created to be a single-minded evil either, in the beginning, his primary existence is to defeat Sauron but overtime he grew corrupted and seduced by the dark side he studied trying to understand what he try to destroy. Like TIM, his intentions grew even more convoluted that their lust of power overwhelmed them in the end leaving nothing but a shell of their former selves. Orsino is just the same. His intention was good, trying to free the Kirkwall Circle but he's also the person who are responsible for Quentin and indirectly responsible for multiple series of deaths. He thought blood magic would give him more power to free everyone and instead he became an abominatio. Again, mere repetition of this situation. Even Meredith have this.

 

Each of them have their narrative complexities, and its pretty sad that after all the effort in writing, we're still reduced to, "they're not villain. I like my villain simple and I don't care to understand them or their motivations. I just want to kill them all". 

[Mdizzletr0n]

Well TIM isn't an antagonist in ME2 because he isnt acting against Shepard.  In ME2, TIM isn't a friend, but he isn't an enemy either. I see it more as the enemy of my enemy is my friend or lesser of two evils situation. Sure he was always trying to manipulate Shepard to his cause, but he was opposed to the Reapers. He just wanted Cerberus to come out on top of the aftermath. 
 
He's clearly Indoctrinated in ME3. I don't see any similarities to the other characters. Palpatine was always evil. He set up the conflict in the first place rather than taking advantage one already occurring. Sarumon openly and willingly worked with the Big Bad Sauron but hoped to take his power. The latter bit has some similarities, but TIM wasn't consciously collaborating with the Reapers until the end. Orsino went crazy at the end.

He's absolutely an enemy. Just one that you're railroaded into teaming up with. Which is something my Shep (according to ME1) would never have done.

[ArcadiaGrey]

 
What? It made perfect sense in ME1. All they had was Shepard's word and a vague threat. It made no sense after that.
  

You're kidding? Every time you ask the council for help in ME1 it's like pulling teeth. Sure they'd be hesitant at first, but after you prove what Saren's up too they still shrug their shoulders and do little to help. They're useless.

[Natureguy85]

An antagonist doesn't always need to be a force that 'works against' protagonist. It can merely represent an obstacle than the protagonist have to overcome. That obstacle can be anything from megalomaniac businessperson to self-esteem issues to bad weather. This is basic 101 in writing.

 

I'm not saying he is the primary antagonist in ME2, that distinction still belong to Harbinger. TIM is an obstacle that Shepard had to content with. TIM owned Shepard for the entirety of the game. EDI was obligated to spy on Shepard, Kelly too, Miranda report every thing to TIM, everyone in the galaxy think Shepard is working for Cerberus and nobody trust you and nobody to turn to except for the man in the high castle... the only way you can achieve freedom from his clutches was by refusing the only thing he wanted that only you alone can give to him. Of course, as a complete renegade, you can choose to sympathise with him and try to empathize to his efforts but after he's done with you, he still betrays you. He don't care about you, he's just using you for his endgame.

 

Palpatine and TIM are both masters at manipulation. As a Senator, he is just a solitary Sith Lord trying to wage a war in an era when Jedi is abundant. For decades he hides himself in the open (honestly, for an average Sith Lord this is very humiliating and degrading), sacrificed a couple of his apprentices and his patience was rewarded and he was able to infiltrate the republic and ease his way through as the Supreme Chancellor. But he still need Anakin as a catalyst in his plot to lead to the complete annihilation of the Jedi Order.

 

Saruman isn't created to be a single-minded evil either, in the beginning, his primary existence is to defeat Sauron but overtime he grew corrupted and seduced by the dark side he studied trying to understand what he try to destroy. Like TIM, his intentions grew even more convoluted that their lust of power overwhelmed them in the end leaving nothing but a shell of their former selves. Orsino is just the same. His intention was good, trying to free the Kirkwall Circle but he's also the person who are responsible for Quentin and indirectly responsible for multiple series of deaths. He thought blood magic would give him more power to free everyone and instead he became an abominatio. Again, mere repetition of this situation. Even Meredith have this.

 

Each of them have their narrative complexities, and its pretty sad that after all the effort in writing, we're still reduced to, "they're not villain. I like my villain simple and I don't care to understand them or their motivations. I just want to kill them all". 

 

That's simply not correct or you're using a broader definition than I have ever heard. Obstacles, such as your example of weather, are just that. An antagonist is an active force. You might be able to make an argument for a person that actively hindered the protagonist through bumbling attempts at helping that actually make things worse, but that would be a stretch. If there is favorable weather is the weather a protagonist then?

 

TIM is in no way an obstacle to Shepard in ME2. Shepard wouldn't do anything at all if TIM didn't tell him to. This is one of the problems with the writing, remember? TIM resurrects Shepard, gives him a ship and crew, gives him the locations of all his super badass squadmates to get, and gets him what he needs to go through the relay. TIM provides everything. Yes, he has ulterior motives but for the purposes of the ME2 plot, he and Shepard are on the same side.

 

Palpatine is just a straight up evil "mastermind" bent on conquering the galaxy.

 

Saruman is interesting because of where he is and how far he has fallen from what he was intended to be. It's sad because the one who was supposed to be the wisest and most powerful is the one who fell to the charms of evil. TIM was never that. I guess if you read all the books and comics or whatever, he might be but I'm talking about everything as presented in the games. They are similar in that they both seek to tame the power of the enemy to their will and you could say both are Indoctrinated in their own way.

 

Orsino acts foolishly out of desperation. You'd be hard pressed to call him a villain. Meredith had some complexity in that there are a few lines that might garner some sympathy for a misguided woman who sees no other way to deal with a very real problem. I've always felt that the Lyrium sword angle ruined that.

 

I didn't read much EU, but Palpatine is a pretty shallow, basic, evil villain "mastermind." The fact that his MO is to operate in the shadows while also using the system doesn't make him complex. He is motivated by a pure desire for power.

 

 

 

He's absolutely an enemy. Just one that you're railroaded into teaming up with. Which is something my Shep (according to ME1) would never have done.

 

True, but he's not an enemy as far as the plot of ME2 is concerned. He may very well be an enemy in another war, if you choose to play Shepard that way.

[Natureguy85]

You're kidding? Every time you ask the council for help in ME1 it's like pulling teeth. Sure they'd be hesitant at first, but after you prove what Saren's up too they still shrug their shoulders and do little to help. They're useless.

 

True, but that's not unreasonable. They don't accept your claims without evidence, but when you have evidence (jokes about mp3 files aside), they give you Specter status. Shepard still doesn't give them much to go on in the last meeting. What did he prove? After that however, they saw Sovereign and have the Reaper bits so you can definitely call them blind.

[Seraphim24]

Whoa are we really comparing Palpatine to the Illusive Man? Illusive Man seemed like this kind of meritocracy sort of "Don't trust anyone but those closest to you" sort of figure that had a narrow objective he wanted Shepard to complete, of course it's been a long time since I played ME2, so maybe I'm missing some really important details, but he seemed kind of neutral to me all things considered, at least in ME2, and based on my (possibly flawed) memory.

 

Palpatine was more like... DARK SIDE MAGIC POWERS MWHAHAHA and then ZAP! Frog time.

[Natureguy85]

Whoa are we really comparing Palpatine to the Illusive Man? Illusive Man seemed like this kind of meritocracy sort of "Don't trust anyone but those closest to you" sort of figure that had a narrow objective he wanted Shepard to complete, of course it's been a long time since I played ME2, so maybe I'm missing some really important details, but he seemed kind of neutral to me all things considered, at least in ME2, and based on my (possibly flawed) memory.

 

Palpatine was more like... DARK SIDE MAGIC POWERS MWHAHAHA and then ZAP! Frog time.

 

"Trust me, look at my face! Would this face lie to you?"

 

Well both wanted power, but I agree you could argue that TIM wasn't as blatantly evil. Cerberus was but they kept trying to tell us that was all without TIM's knowledge.

[Seraphim24]

"Trust me, look at my face! Would this face lie to you?"

 

Well both wanted power, but I agree you could argue that TIM wasn't as blatantly evil. Cerberus was but they kept trying to tell us that was all without TIM's knowledge.

 

I remember something in the honest trailer somewhere where

 

https://youtu.be/4l5eZp8Ae9c?t=3m14s

 

But honestly like 'wanting power" all by itself isn't like evil... although I'm pretty sure you mean in a more general context.

 

It is weird because ME1 Cerberus was pretty crazy if I remember... I don't know all the details like I said, but I just remember TIM in ME2 was somewhat mellow in many respects.

[Seraphim24]

Although really enjoyed Episode 3 though! I guess I'm always unique in that mwaha

[Natureguy85]

I remember something in the honest trailer somewhere where

 

https://youtu.be/4l5eZp8Ae9c?t=3m14s

 

But honestly like 'wanting power" all by itself isn't like evil... although I'm pretty sure you mean in a more general context.

 

It is weird because ME1 Cerberus was pretty crazy if I remember... I don't know all the details like I said, but I just remember TIM in ME2 was somewhat mellow in many respects.

 

It is in Star Wars.

I just meant it was their motivation. Though perhaps I should say it was "domination" not simply power.

 

I hadn't watched the Honest Trailer. That's hilarious.I like the "4 evil head turns" part. I did like Episode 3 better than the other two prequels, but I still don't really care for it. I liked the opening space battle and the fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin up to the point where the platform break off. After that, it was ridiculous and the fight went on too long. Order 66 was pretty sad, which was helped by the music.

[Statichands]

I want to see an iconic villain like Handsome Jack from Borderlands 2. This guy was the full package. He had charisma, he was funny,his appearance stood out and he had his own motives. Handsome Jack is what happens when you keep messing with a nice guy. I think they won't try to make Borderlands 3 for a while because they don't know how to top a villain like that. 

 

[goishen]

Kai doesn't even count as character though... -since any attempt to give him something of character either is alot of Tell don't show or comes off as Him and shepard are five year olds on the play ground- and Kai's not allowed to be built up as a threat cause doing so would hurt the fans feelings or something.

 

I mean if he was just a Silent faceless Male Phantom who just showed up to ruin your day, What would change?

arguable His anonymity would give him something for you to wonder about since its just a Generic grunt getting the better of Shepard XD

 

Right, but that's because we worked with TIM in ME2.  Do you expect him to pull punches now that we're fighting against him?  Or do you expect him to throw everything at you?  Do you really expect to know everything that's gonna happen at the same time that Shepard doesn't know?  I can hear the tears of agony coming screaming down your cheeks now.

[Linkenski]

I didn't care for Saren... but I understood him and that's more important to me. Same with Corypheus in DA:I but the reason I hated TIM or Udina in ME3 was because they were incoherent. (indoctrination asspulls, to be correct)

 

On most playthroughs I fought Saren instead of making him shoot himself because I just understood him but still thought he was a bad person despite of being a victim, and just wanted to shoot him. IMO villains just need to be understandable but not necessarily sympathetic or likeable.