388 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

Kai Leng wasn't a villain, he was an obstacle.  Kai Leng had had his plans foiled (on the citadel), had been defeated and then needed help (on Thessia)...   So, in my mind, he was brought up properly.  He was facing off against the person who kept getting in the way. 

 

How you've managed to warp this conversation into Kai Leng as being this major bad ass character whom Shepard rivals off with and then it ends the game is somehow perplexing to me.  I mean, a similar conversation about ME2 would be, "Wasn't Warden Kuril such a badass?  I wish they had built him up more."

 

Wait...  What?

 

I may have just missed it but who said Kai Leng was a badass? Most people don't seem to think so but the writers clearly wanted him to be one. Your comparison doesn't work either because Kuril was on one mission while Leng popped up several times.

[Linkenski]

I may have just missed it but who said Kai Leng was a badass? Most people don't seem to think so but the writers clearly wanted him to be one. Your comparison doesn't work either because Kuril was on one mission while Leng popped up several times.

Kai Leng could have been a badass if he had some character. The fact that nobody liked him is almost entirely on Walters, like a lot of other gripes people had with ME3 like the Citadel Coup never being explained beyond "Indoctrination... I guess." or how poorly the Crucible was handled, the Kid or the intro or the ending. The ideas ME3 had at its forefront were not inherently bad, it's just that Mac being in charge of them he didn't always quite execute properly on them because it turned out he didn't know how to write a primary rival to the protagonist, didn't know how to write an antagonist, didn't know how to write the ending and basically he's a terrible lead, like people have said over and over.

 

Kai Leng just needed some character beyond what he had, perhaps some motivation we could understand too. Aside from that they should've made him actually beat you on Thessia in the boss-fight (by triggering some scripted super power of his) because the reason why so many hated his plot powers was partly because you actually beat him in the gameplay to trigger a cutscene where he wins, whereas simply making him so tough he beats you in the gameplay would've made the following cutscene feel less forced. They should've done something in the Leng vs Thane scene too to avoid Shepard and his squad just looking while they fought, or in the Cerberus HQ mission the crew could've been knocked out at the beginning of the fight so they're not just turning their back to Shepard to conveniently let Leng strike from behind.

 

There's a lot of things they could've done to improve Leng as an antagonist both in writing and gameplay. Mostly I think people just needed him to be a more substantial character though and that fault is Walters'.

[goishen]

Look, in order to have any kind of story you've gotta have obstacles.  Leng was, and is, one of those obstacles.  Anderson's speech, Hackett's data, and the email he wrote you should be enough for him to be built up properly enough.

 

And that's because his primary mission wasn't going after Shepard.  Primary mission on the Citadel : Kill the council.  Primary mission on Thessia : Retrieve the VI.

 

That's great that you keep saying that he's a villain (meaning one of, if not the main, the characters the protagonist has to defeat), but just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true.

[Shechinah]

...

 

In my opinion, Kai Leng would have been interesting if he had been a silent character who is  professional in his behavior but I may be bias because I feel his dialogue made him seem terribly generic. Kai Leng could have been a silent character who would be genuinely intimidating in gameplay and who would not need to have other characters act unlike themselves to make himself seem a threat. Kai Leng had plenty of potential and I am still of the opinion that the execution of his character was where his potential were ruined.  

 

"Good. You opened this message. This isn't actually asari command. They're busy tending to what's left of their planet. So you survived our fight on Thessia. You're not as weak as I thought. But never forget your best wasn't good enough to stop me. Now an entire planet is dying because you lacked the strength to win. The legend of Shepard needs to be re-written. I hope I'm there for the last chapter. It ends with your death. -KL"

 

This email is likely intended to serve as a boost of Shepard's supposed feelings of failure and as a way of trying to make the player become personally invested in Kai Leng's defeat as a way of making him pay but to me, it makes Kai Leng seem childish and worse, generic childish. His taunt seems that of a character whose defining trait is that they believe themselves to be superior to their foe when nothing but their ego indicates despite their foe supposedly being concerned that this might be the case.    

 

Kai Leng seems to percieve himself as a personal match for Shepard in terms of combat skill and the game itself seem try to make this the case but this is laughable because the section where this needs to be shown is where he falls so hard: gameplay.

 

On Thessia, I was an Infiltrator who was unharmed because my sniper rifle calmly dealt with him before he even came halfway close to me. If he'd been a credible threat, he might have taken this into account and altered tactics instead of repeatedly running into the sight of a sniper. It made him look like an awful assassin. A smart tactic might have been to force my character into cover by the way of the gunship laying down fire and serving as a distraction while he took position at a vantage point where he could try to take my character out with a sniper rifle of his own.      

 

Prior to the battle itself, both Kai Leng and the Illusive Man acts very questionable considering their supposed brilliance: Kai Leng casually walks towards Shepard with the gunship blaring a light in the background thereby revealing all of the cards up his sleeve. Vendetta's warning reveals the presence of indoctrinated people, yes, but not who and how many. The Illusive Man could have sent a mook to be the messenger while Kai Leng remained an unseen presence who would have the element of surprise if the situation called for combat.   

 

On Cronos, I was more concerned with keeping track of his Phantom mooks than I was with him. I could never percieve him as a genuine threat because he was never a genuine threat. 

 

Summation: Kai Leng was supposedly recruited by the Illusive Man with a primary reason being his powess in combat. Kai Leng is supposed to have become the preferred operative and assassin of the Illusive Man for over a decade . Kai Leng is supposed to be methodical, ruthless and discreet. Kai Leng, however, is less threatening than his mooks. Kai Leng is unprioritised in terms of danger by his own mooks.
 

[Raizo]

I may have just missed it but who said Kai Leng was a badass? Most people don't seem to think so but the writers clearly wanted him to be one. Your comparison doesn't work either because Kuril was on one mission while Leng popped up several times.

It was implied in Mass Effect: Retribution.

It's been a long time since I read that book but on the strength of his appearance here ( I never read the 4th ME book so ME:R is my only pre ME3 introduction to Kai Leng ) I was excited about him appearing in ME3 as a foil to Shepard. On paper, a N7 soldier going up against another N7 soldier seemed like a great idea. Sadly Bioware assumed that all the ME3 players would know who Kai Leng was because he was in 2 books and they automatically assumed everyone would give a damn. He got no in game back story or character development. He comes of as a caricature of a stereotypical D list villain in the short screen time he gets. His character design was also flipping stupid, seriously, a space ninja wearing Nightwings mask, it made it very difficult to take him seriously.

[Natureguy85]

Kai Leng could have been a badass if he had some character. The fact that nobody liked him is almost entirely on Walters, like a lot of other gripes people had with ME3 like the Citadel Coup never being explained beyond "Indoctrination... I guess." or how poorly the Crucible was handled, the Kid or the intro or the ending. The ideas ME3 had at its forefront were not inherently bad, it's just that Mac being in charge of them he didn't always quite execute properly on them because it turned out he didn't know how to write a primary rival to the protagonist, didn't know how to write an antagonist, didn't know how to write the ending and basically he's a terrible lead, like people have said over and over.

 

Kai Leng just needed some character beyond what he had, perhaps some motivation we could understand too. Aside from that they should've made him actually beat you on Thessia in the boss-fight (by triggering some scripted super power of his) because the reason why so many hated his plot powers was partly because you actually beat him in the gameplay to trigger a cutscene where he wins, whereas simply making him so tough he beats you in the gameplay would've made the following cutscene feel less forced. They should've done something in the Leng vs Thane scene too to avoid Shepard and his squad just looking while they fought, or in the Cerberus HQ mission the crew could've been knocked out at the beginning of the fight so they're not just turning their back to Shepard to conveniently let Leng strike from behind.

 

There's a lot of things they could've done to improve Leng as an antagonist both in writing and gameplay. Mostly I think people just needed him to be a more substantial character though and that fault is Walters'.

 

Well it wasn't just that there was no build up, it was also that what was there was so frustrating and annoying. He looked very silly and out of place, is in some terrible scenes, feels like he cheats the player out of victory, and then taunts you about it. I think it was Shamus Young who said Leng antagonizes the player more than Shepard.

 

 

Look, in order to have any kind of story you've gotta have obstacles.  Leng was, and is, one of those obstacles.  Anderson's speech, Hackett's data, and the email he wrote you should be enough for him to be built up properly enough.

 

And that's because his primary mission wasn't going after Shepard.  Primary mission on the Citadel : Kill the council.  Primary mission on Thessia : Retrieve the VI.

 

That's great that you keep saying that he's a villain (meaning one of, if not the main, the characters the protagonist has to defeat), but just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true.

 

No, no, no. Hackett and Anderson are just telling you he's dangerous. We have to see and experience why he is dangerous. Show, don't tell. Imagine hunting Saren based only on Anderson's words and not having gone to Eden Prime. You're right that Leng's missions weren't to go after Shepard directly, but he and Shepard do keep crossing paths, which TIM and Kai Leng knew was a possibility in both situations.  I don't know why you're playing semantics with your definition of "villain" vs "obstacle". The latter seems far too passive and inanimate. Leng is a recurring enemy and shows up on 4 of Shepard's missions. He could be considered a "major character."

 

 

In my opinion, Kai Leng would have been interesting if he had been a silent character who is  professional in his behavior but I may be bias because I feel his dialogue made him seem terribly generic. Kai Leng could have been a silent character who would be genuinely intimidating in gameplay and who would not need to have other characters act unlike themselves to make himself seem a threat. Kai Leng had plenty of potential and I am still of the opinion that the execution of his character was where his potential were ruined.  

 

"Good. You opened this message. This isn't actually asari command. They're busy tending to what's left of their planet. So you survived our fight on Thessia. You're not as weak as I thought. But never forget your best wasn't good enough to stop me. Now an entire planet is dying because you lacked the strength to win. The legend of Shepard needs to be re-written. I hope I'm there for the last chapter. It ends with your death. -KL"

 

This email is likely intended to serve as a boost of Shepard's supposed feelings of failure and as a way of trying to make the player become personally invested in Kai Leng's defeat as a way of making him pay but to me, it makes Kai Leng seem childish and worse, generic childish. His taunt seems that of a character whose defining trait is that they believe themselves to be superior to their foe when nothing but their ego indicates despite their foe supposedly being concerned that this might be the case.    

 

Kai Leng seems to percieve himself as a personal match for Shepard in terms of combat skill and the game itself seem try to make this the case but this is laughable because the section where this needs to be shown is where he falls so hard: gameplay.

 

On Thessia, I was an Infiltrator who was unharmed because my sniper rifle calmly dealt with him before he even came halfway close to me. If he'd been a credible threat, he might have taken this into account and altered tactics instead of repeatedly running into the sight of a sniper. It made him look like an awful assassin. A smart tactic might have been to force my character into cover by the way of the gunship laying down fire and serving as a distraction while he took position at a vantage point where he could try to take my character out with a sniper rifle of his own.      

 

Prior to the battle itself, both Kai Leng and the Illusive Man acts very questionable considering their supposed brilliance: Kai Leng casually walks towards Shepard with the gunship blaring a light in the background thereby revealing all of the cards up his sleeve. Vendetta's warning reveals the presence of indoctrinated people, yes, but not who and how many. The Illusive Man could have sent a mook to be the messenger while Kai Leng remained an unseen presence who would have the element of surprise if the situation called for combat.   

 

On Cronos, I was more concerned with keeping track of his Phantom mooks than I was with him. I could never percieve him as a genuine threat because he was never a genuine threat. 

 

Summation: Kai Leng was supposedly recruited by the Illusive Man with a primary reason being his powess in combat. Kai Leng is supposed to have become the preferred operative and assassin of the Illusive Man for over a decade . Kai Leng is supposed to be methodical, ruthless and discreet. Kai Leng, however, is less threatening than his mooks. Kai Leng is unprioritised in terms of danger by his own mooks.
 

 

Kai Leng is the definition of Informed Ability, Informed Attribute, and generally violating "Show, don't Tell." Your idea of him being silent is intriguing. I don't know if it would be better than actually good dialogue, but it would have been better than what we got. However, it would definitely be somewhat creepy and intimidating to have the same guy sneak in and cause problems without a word or even a real confrontation with the protagonist. 

 

What really shows how childish he is has to be "It ends with your death," line. The prior line about the "last chapter" was a clear death threat so we knew what he was implying. It was like explaining a joke; if you have to do it, the prior line failed.

 

 

It was implied in Mass Effect: Retribution.

It's been a long time since I read that book but on the strength of his appearance here ( I never read the 4th ME book so ME:R is my only pre ME3 introduction to Kai Leng ) I was excited about him appearing in ME3 as a foil to Shepard. On paper, a N7 soldier going up against another N7 soldier seemed like a great idea. Sadly Bioware assumed that all the ME3 players would know who Kai Leng was because he was in 2 books and they automatically assumed everyone would give a damn. He got no in game back story or character development. He comes of as a caricature of a stereotypical D list villain in the short screen time he gets. His character design was also flipping stupid, seriously, a space ninja wearing Nightwings mask, it made it very difficult to take him seriously.

 

You're right, but I was asking about someone saying that on this forum, as goishen had claimed. I didn't read any of the books but it's clear that the writers wanted you to think Leng was awesome.

[HSomCokeSniper]

I think the villains in ME1 and ME2 worked perfectly. (except Human Reaper)

[Panda]

I think the villains in ME1 and ME2 worked perfectly. (except Human Reaper)

 

I thought Illusive Man in ME3 was pretty great as well. Especially the scene after he was defeated was awesome.

[clst]

BECAUSE it' the encounterbetween the protagonist  versus the villain that make game into a pearl  like legocy of kain defiance  ( kain versu raziel)  , like witcher 3 ( eredin versus geralt , even gunther ) greater the evil greater it make the hero.

[katamuro]

Part of it is of course to play it off as a great clash of personalities. Also there is this whole trend that had started quite a while ago to "humanize" the antagonist. To make them more likeable, to give it the extra kick when the bad guy/girl is doing something evil because unless they do evil things they would be perfectly ok people. 

Which is I think is a hard thing to pull off. Not every writer and director can actually make it so that while you sympathise with the antagonist but still root for the protagonist. 

I would like to see where the enemy is the enemy and you can safely blast them away without feeling that you are doing something bad by killing them.

[goishen]

No, no, no. Hackett and Anderson are just telling you he's dangerous. We have to see and experience why he is dangerous. Show, don't tell. Imagine hunting Saren based only on Anderson's words and not having gone to Eden Prime. You're right that Leng's missions weren't to go after Shepard directly, but he and Shepard do keep crossing paths, which TIM and Kai Leng knew was a possibility in both situations.  I don't know why you're playing semantics with your definition of "villain" vs "obstacle". The latter seems far too passive and inanimate. Leng is a recurring enemy and shows up on 4 of Shepard's missions. He could be considered a "major character."

 

 

 

Could be, yeh.  Of course, with his onscreen time and his overall importance to the story, no, he isn't.  That's why I say he's an obstacle, not a villain.  The game already has two villains, TIM and the Reapers.  A very difficult feat for any piece of literature to pull off. 

 

*shrug*

 

I just can't see why anybody's so hung up on him in the first place.  He's an obstacle.  He's Sully who gets killed by Arnold Schwarzenegger in Commando in the first fifteen minutes.

[karushna5]

I don't know, I think in most stories we say we want grey characters, but we really just want a sweeping epic. Let's face it, Logain wasn't the villain of DA it was the darkspawn. Jade Empire Ghost dad emperor wants power and to live so he wants to destroy everything. KotOR had evil underling wanting to take over everything for Evil. The Reapers want to destroy everything.

 

I mean is there any villain that really is morally grey because if he was grey enough we would complain we were the bad guys. Heck DA2 had so much dark grey I just wanted to destroy both sides. I feel that works for some games that are about darker stuff or exploring the human psyche, but I mean Bioware makes fun Pulp, you get the action, the romance, and some drama. But they are romps which makes them fun.

 

I like complicated villains too, but I can't think of a game I legitamately enjoyed with a Main villain that was like this unless it was revealed at the end like surprise this guy had reasons all along.

[Natureguy85]

I think the villains in ME1 and ME2 worked perfectly. (except Human Reaper)

 

Who are you thinking of in ME2? TIM wasn't a villain and I think Harbinger was pretty goofy. I did like the end speech a bit and I really like the conversation at the end of Arrival, even if ME3 made Arrival moot.

 

 

I thought Illusive Man in ME3 was pretty great as well. Especially the scene after he was defeated was awesome.

 

I did not and it's because they tipped their hand way too early that he was Indoctrinated. They shouldn't have shown the Cerberus Trooper's face. Think of how much better a reveal that could be at the end of the game, perhaps at Sanctuary. I thought his line as he died was really lame and the way he put his head down like he was a child taking a nap was laughable.

 

 

Could be, yeh.  Of course, with his onscreen time and his overall importance to the story, no, he isn't.  That's why I say he's an obstacle, not a villain.  The game already has two villains, TIM and the Reapers.  A very difficult feat for any piece of literature to pull off. 

 

*shrug*

 

I just can't see why anybody's so hung up on him in the first place.  He's an obstacle.  He's Sully who gets killed by Arnold Schwarzenegger in Commando in the first fifteen minutes.

 

No, he's not because Sully gets killed in the first fifteen minutes while Leng keeps coming back. That's the entire difference. And while he is just the head mook, he's clearly meant to be more, which is why people don't like him. Well, one reason anyway. Another is his smug attitude.

 

 

I don't know, I think in most stories we say we want grey characters, but we really just want a sweeping epic. Let's face it, Logain wasn't the villain of DA it was the darkspawn. Jade Empire Ghost dad emperor wants power and to live so he wants to destroy everything. KotOR had evil underling wanting to take over everything for Evil. The Reapers want to destroy everything.

 

I mean is there any villain that really is morally grey because if he was grey enough we would complain we were the bad guys. Heck DA2 had so much dark grey I just wanted to destroy both sides. I feel that works for some games that are about darker stuff or exploring the human psyche, but I mean Bioware makes fun Pulp, you get the action, the romance, and some drama. But they are romps which makes them fun.

 

I like complicated villains too, but I can't think of a game I legitamately enjoyed with a Main villain that was like this unless it was revealed at the end like surprise this guy had reasons all along.

 

While the Archdemon, the Darkspawn, and the Blight were the greater threat looming over everything, Loghain was the main antagonist. He's the one who most directly opposes the Warden and the one who must be defeated before the greater threat can be fought. Antagonist does not always mean villain.

 

In DA2, I thought Meredith, like Loghain was a well-intentioned extremist, while Orsino was too defensive about  Templars to see the real problem he had right under his nose. I liked that they both had their flaws, even thought they tipped the scales too much against the Templars. It wasn't as bad as they tipped toward the Geth in Mass Effect 3, at least. They really ruined it by having Orsino literally become a Monster and giving Meredith the Lyrium sword.

[katamuro]

I found Loghain annoying, not because he was a villain but because he was basically a guy gone crazy and everyone around him were not realising it. He did not make a great villain, frankly he needed a padded cell and some pills rather than a duel. 

[Natureguy85]

I found Loghain annoying, not because he was a villain but because he was basically a guy gone crazy and everyone around him were not realising it. He did not make a great villain, frankly he needed a padded cell and some pills rather than a duel. 

 

I agree, but I see what they tried to do with him. It helps that people have told me about things that were in the books. Now, I don't think it's fair to use that info to make my decisions in or about the game, but it helped me decipher the writer intent. One scene that helps a lot is how disgusted he is when Howe wants to hire assassins.

[karushna5]

I always viewed Logain as a nuisance the only time he was a direct antagonist was at the landsmeet and didn't ever seem like a bigger threat than Bhelen. I mean a little nuanced but there were lots of antagonists, and Logain never really poses a dangerous threat. I guess when you are captured, but so many ways to break out of that jail it is hard to take seriously.

[Natureguy85]

I always viewed Logain as a nuisance the only time he was a direct antagonist was at the landsmeet and didn't ever seem like a bigger threat than Bhelen. I mean a little nuanced but there were lots of antagonists, and Logain never really poses a dangerous threat. I guess when you are captured, but so many ways to break out of that jail it is hard to take seriously.

 

Loghain is the entire reason you have to go to each place to enforce your treaties. Without his actions, some other Warden would do that while you stayed with Duncan fighting Darkspawn in the South, looking for the Archdemon. He sends assassins after you and poisons Eamon. I forget his connection to the other quests other than reaching out to Orzammar unsuccessfully.

[goishen]

 

No, he's not because Sully gets killed in the first fifteen minutes while Leng keeps coming back. That's the entire difference. And while he is just the head mook, he's clearly meant to be more, which is why people don't like him. Well, one reason anyway. Another is his smug attitude.

 

 

 

Personally, I don't buy it.  I think that the only reason why he went after Shepard was petty revenge and petulance.  He had plenty of opportunities to get off that station.  Did he take them?   Hell no.  He waited around for the one person who had been a thorn in his side for a number of months before.  Shepard.  In fact, your own post points to that, his smug attitude.  That reeks of petulance and a sense that, "I'm better than him/her."

 

 

 

While the Archdemon, the Darkspawn, and the Blight were the greater threat looming over everything, Loghain was the main antagonist. He's the one who most directly opposes the Warden and the one who must be defeated before the greater threat can be fought. Antagonist does not always mean villain.

 

Loghain wasn't the main antagonist, he was another obstacle that could be turned into a force for good. 

[SNascimento]

Bioware has done some great villains. Jon Irenicus, Malak, Master Li, The Arishok... 

From Mass Effect I can't say I loved any of them. The Reapers had their moments but they received a very poor treatment in ME3 and so I can't take them seriously. TIM was super cool in ME2, not so much in ME3. Never really cared for Saren. The greatest antagonist in the trilogy for me was Tela Vair. "Don't you dare judge me!". Besides that, I enjoyed some of the "mini-villans" that ME2 had.

More recently in DAI Inquisition, Corypheus had an extremely strong introduction. “Beg that I succeed, for I have seen the throne of the gods, and it was empty.” It really felt that he was going to be an incredible viilain. But then nothing happened. 
 

I'm not sure the kind of villain I want for MEA. I want someone that lives to the legacy of this picture:

Spoiler

Where was this guy in ME3?

[Natureguy85]

Personally, I don't buy it.  I think that the only reason why he went after Shepard was petty revenge and petulance.  He had plenty of opportunities to get off that station.  Did he take them?   Hell no.  He waited around for the one person who had been a thorn in his side for a number of months before.  Shepard.  In fact, your own post points to that, his smug attitude.  That reeks of petulance and a sense that, "I'm better than him/her."

 

 

 

 

Loghain wasn't the main antagonist, he was another obstacle that could be turned into a force for good. 

 

Revenge for what? Yes, he clearly wants to show he's better than Shepard, at least in part so Daddy TIM will tell him he's a good boy. What is your point?

 

You're wrong about Loghain. An antagonist opposes the protagonist. This is exactly what Loghain does. He is a more direct and immediate threat to the Warden than the Darkspawn, which is the threat looming in the background. Everything builds up to Denerim and the Landsmeet, which is the climax. The real fight against the Darkspawn and Archdemon doesn't start until after that.

[Han Shot First]

Kai Leng needed a better character design as well. Character design was far from being the character's greatest flaw, but even if he were written better and had excellent dialogue he'd be difficult to take seriously with that comic book ninja design.

 

Something like this would have been better:

 

 

Combined with this guy's cybernetics:

 

[Lady Artifice]

I think the Arishok was an underrated antagonist. The Qun is fueled by troll logic, but I think that just makes his actions more understandable from his perspective. He was placed in an impossible situation by the standards of the only law he knows, and he dealt with it in fairly spectacular and grisly fashion. 

 

Loghain in contrast seemed to be having a mental breakdown over something he was afraid would happen. He underestimated his real opponent (the darkspawn) and then when he realized his mistake all on his own, he still refused to consider all the evidence when deciding the best way to proceed. "This is not a blight," became, "This is a blight, but we don't need the grey wardens to fight it." I found him more frustrating and pitiable than anything else. 

[thepiebaker]

I think the lead antagonist should be hidden yet show up unexpectantly and usually subtley every mission like Stan Lee in a Marvel Movie when we confront the antagonist forces it leads on a comical chase where the antagnistic forces fail like Wild E. Cyote. Once we track down and apprehend the main antagonist the biotic god appears and removes the mask of the antagonist to reveal that it is MARAUDER SHEILDS

[karushna5]

Loghain is the entire reason you have to go to each place to enforce your treaties. Without his actions, some other Warden would do that while you stayed with Duncan fighting Darkspawn in the South, looking for the Archdemon. He sends assassins after you and poisons Eamon. I forget his connection to the other quests other than reaching out to Orzammar unsuccessfully.

 

Yeah but that was for plot fiat in its own way. The assassin is just to introduce Zevran, a good thing. I found the antogonists of each location had much more impact than Loghain, whose location, Denerim, he never was a danger til at the end and even then not much of a threat compared to Branka or Zathrian/Lady of the Forest, or Connor/demon, or even Uldred. These guys were the real villains of each location and when Loghain showed up he kinda crumpled fast.

 

 As far as other villains, I admit to loving Zathrian. It took me a couple playthroughs to realize he is trying to get you killed to further his goals. Also the Arishock was interesting because he was more calm and easy to deal with than the main plot and will admit I felt railroaded when we couldn't defend him since he was right on many occaisons and just trying to defend his people.

 

Branka was fun also being so Insane.

 

My least favorite villain was leng just due to every win being "fake" and felt unintergrated. Other forced losses felt more natural to the plot and hinted at beforehand. This one felt fake, and worse than that Boring. We were never given more on Leng than a mook who is a cool dude with cyber stuff, it makes the forced Loss harder to swallow since he never really felt like a real threat outside a cutscene.

[Natureguy85]

Kai Leng needed a better character design as well. Character design was far from being the character's greatest flaw, but even if he were written better and had excellent dialogue he'd be difficult to take seriously with that comic book ninja design.

 

Something like this would have been better:

 

 

Combined with this guy's cybernetics:

 

 

Yeah, something that didn't make me laugh would have helped.

 

 

I think the Arishok was an underrated antagonist. The Qun is fueled by troll logic, but I think that just makes his actions more understandable from his perspective. He was placed in an impossible situation by the standards of the only law he knows, and he dealt with it in fairly spectacular and grisly fashion. 

 

Underrated by whom? Most people seem to find the Arishok the high point of the entire game.

 

 

Yeah but that was for plot fiat in its own way. The assassin is just to introduce Zevran, a good thing. I found the antogonists of each location had much more impact than Loghain, whose location, Denerim, he never was a danger til at the end and even then not much of a threat compared to Branka or Zathrian/Lady of the Forest, or Connor/demon, or even Uldred. These guys were the real villains of each location and when Loghain showed up he kinda crumpled fast.

 

Well of course each section's villain will be more prominent than the background villains. However, Loghain is the major player in the connecting events