73 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Obviously if we have enough paragon/renegade points for the decision it should still be a 100% pass rate, but make it clear

No it should not. There should never be an "I WIN" button.

I'd like to see some persuasion checks that always fail.

[BloodyMares]

No it should not. There should never be an "I WIN" button.

I'd like to see some persuasion checks that always fail.

Then it's not a persuasion check but a script.

[Raizo]

The novelty of the Paragon and Renegade system has worn off for me, by the time I'd gotten to ME3 I felt that morality system was to black and white, to right vs left or right vs wrong for my liking. In real life most choices are more subtle and I'd prefer an in game morality system that addresses just how grey most choices are.

[spinachdiaper]

The Paragon/Renegade system should get left behind in the Milky Way since this should be a story about doing what it takes to colonize a new and dangerous frontier while trying to avoid the complete extinction of the surviving milky way aliens and the human race.

[AlanC9]

Then it's not a persuasion check but a script.

Well, it's all scripts.

[Kimarous]

The big issue I have with the Paragon/Renegade system is how binary they are. The more Paragon you do, the more Paragon alignment you get, and you feel obligated to stick to that path even though a Renegade choice feels more appropriate, purely on account of "if I don't pick Paragon, I won't have enough alignment to secure both characters' loyalty for the final mission." It's literally CONSISTENCY OR DEATH!

 

Honestly, I'd rather have a Dragon Age style approval system where you can make up for certain disapproval-inducing actions with other tasks or actions, not a binary system that goes "you didn't do enough nice things, therefore you can't say the nice thing when it matters most."

[Sylvius the Mad]

Then it's not a persuasion check but a script.

But, from the player's perspective, it would be indistinguishable from a persuasion check. That's what matters.

The player should never know for sure what the outcome of a persuasion check will be.

[Beerfish]

I would be totally happy if all of that type of thing is totally hidden.  I don't even want to see what i have missed due to previous actions, I can find that out on places like these forums and go  'What???  How did you get that????'

 

I do want tangible consequences for my actions,  some people want to act like a total ass all game and still get the benefits you may get for acting more benevolent.

[ZipZap2000]

Then it's not a persuasion check but a script.

Yep.

[wolfsite]

It confuses me that people keep complaining about something ME3 already fixed. Paragon/Renegade was only cosmetic in ME3

Well it is the BSN, keep complaining even if the thing you are complaining about was fixed about 3 years back.

[ZipZap2000]

I would be totally happy if all of that type of thing is totally hidden. I don't even want to see what i have missed due to previous actions, I can find that out on places like these forums and go 'What??? How did you get that????'.

Inquisition had problems with this regarding selection of the new Divine. I consistently wound up with an over the top aristocrat I had no influence on instead of the spymaster who's personality I'd tempered and prepared for the role.

Then found myself here having it explained how that managed to happen again. It ruins the run you just finished and corners your future runs.

You must pick a certain path that you have already predetermined and have no way to measure in game. But you can measure it outside the game anyway.

So removing the players ability to tell where they are, along the journey toward what it is they wish to achieve, becomes a detriment to the player.

The more times you play the game the bigger the problem. Particularly if you have an Inquisition styled romance system that restricts your choices even further.

[azarhal]

I like systems that enforce role-playing a character a certain way, as long as it has multiple options. Unfortunately, Mass Effect paragon/renegade lacked nuances. DAII personality was a step in the right direction, the auto-dialog not so much (I like selecting dialog that fit my character's personality, but not that the game decide to do it for me).

 

Saying that, I've come to the realization that most gamers do not role-play characters in RPGs. They pick dialog choices based on their idea of "optimal results" (either loots rewards or consequences) instead of character's personality.

[coldsteelblue]

Had a similar conversation to this with my brother the other day & he literally described the Paragon/Renegade system as good guy/bad guy & he won't play DA simply because he can't win everyone over.

 

I'd like to see something more akin to DA's approval meter, as one thing that always bothered me about ME is that 'Shep could do no wrong.' No matter what s/he did s/he always had the full respect & adoration of the crew, apart from the fights between Jack & Miranda & Tali & Legion in ME2 which required a high p/r score.

I know that it was changed to cosmetic in ME3, mostly, I swear there were some decisions that were greyed out due to a lower score, but anyway, making it cosmetic only, in my opinion makes it worse & reinforces the 'can do no wrong' mentality.

Why not have it so you can p*ss off a squad mate so much that they won't follow your orders on the battlefield, or have one like you so much they'll spit-shine your grundies if you ask them to. The characters have their own personalities, so they should react in kind to you as a person.

 

Just my thoughts

[ZipZap2000]

Had a similar conversation to this with my brother the other day & he literally described the Paragon/Renegade system as good guy/bad guy & he won't play DA simply because he can't win everyone over.

I'd like to see something more akin to DA's approval meter, as one thing that always bothered me about ME is that 'Shep could do no wrong.' No matter what s/he did s/he always had the full respect & adoration of the crew, apart from the fights between Jack & Miranda & Tali & Legion in ME2 which required a high p/r score.
I know that it was changed to cosmetic in ME3, mostly, I swear there were some decisions that were greyed out due to a lower score, but anyway, making it cosmetic only, in my opinion makes it worse & reinforces the 'can do no wrong' mentality.
Why not have it so you can p*ss off a squad mate so much that they won't follow your orders on the battlefield, or have one like you so much they'll spit-shine your grundies if you ask them to. The characters have their own personalities, so they should react in kind to you as a person.

Just my thoughts

I agree with your brother its part of what made ME fun.

And I agree with DA even though I enjoyed it. The thing about real life is it sucks. Kids are great but I don't need or want either one of those things in my games.

I don't really need an in game friend who agrees and disagrees. I need a character who's worldview I can shape to suit the world I'm building through THEIR interactions.

That's why I like characters like Leiliana.

I also agree with you but I don't think character interactions and P/R System are the same thing.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Having not read anything except the title of this topic, I just want to not have charm and renegade options grayed out. I liked ME3's system where it was much easier to play a "paragade" or "renegon". You know, like a normal human being.

[AlanC9]

Inquisition had problems with this regarding selection of the new Divine. I consistently wound up with an over the top aristocrat I had no influence on instead of the spymaster who's personality I'd tempered and prepared for the role.
Then found myself here having it explained how that managed to happen again. It ruins the run you just finished and corners your future runs.

How was your run ruined? You played your character, made decisions, experienced consequences. What was ruined?

[AlanC9]

Having not read anything except the title of this topic, I just want to not have charm and renegade options grayed out. I liked ME3's system where it was much easier to play a "paragade" or "renegon". You know, like a normal human being.

There are two different issues here.

ME3 not rewarding you for sticking with one set of choices throughout the game? Good.

Always passing every dialogue check skill check? Not so good. If I want to play a Shepard who is less than awesomely persuasive, I have to play a non-import Shepard and blow off a lot of content.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Had a similar conversation to this with my brother the other day & he literally described the Paragon/Renegade system as good guy/bad guy & he won't play DA simply because he can't win everyone over.

I'd like to see something more akin to DA's approval meter, as one thing that always bothered me about ME is that 'Shep could do no wrong.' No matter what s/he did s/he always had the full respect & adoration of the crew, apart from the fights between Jack & Miranda & Tali & Legion in ME2 which required a high p/r score.
I know that it was changed to cosmetic in ME3, mostly, I swear there were some decisions that were greyed out due to a lower score, but anyway, making it cosmetic only, in my opinion makes it worse & reinforces the 'can do no wrong' mentality.
Why not have it so you can p*ss off a squad mate so much that they won't follow your orders on the battlefield, or have one like you so much they'll spit-shine your grundies if you ask them to. The characters have their own personalities, so they should react in kind to you as a person.

Just my thoughts

I would like the game to reflect which companions you show favoritism towards and which ones you conflict with. Like the "I never get picked" line in the Citadel DLC, but in reverse.

[ZipZap2000]

How was your run ruined? You played your character, made decisions, experienced consequences. What was ruined?

The New Divine isn't a symbolic post it completely alters the world state.

[O'Voutie O'Rooney]

The biggest problem is that the morality system is simplistic. Why is it assumed that selflessness and altruism are good or always good? Why is it always "better" to help someone else for free instead of doing it and asking to be paid to do it? If I don't get paid to do it, then how am I supposed to feed, arm, and clothe myself in order to continue help other people? This problem is conveniently avoided by the fact that RPG characters just go around looting all the free goods that are sitting around the game world. It would be interesting to see how the dynamics of a game and of a moral system in a game would change if the amount of free goods was far lower, if most looting pissed off NPCs, and if you had to actually do things for other people for compensation in order to obtain most of your funding.

[AlanC9]

The New Divine isn't a symbolic post it completely alters the world state.

Agreed. I'm just not clear on what's "ruined" by the PC not getting to set the world state exactly the way he wants it.

Though I can see how there could be a transparency issue for a later run where you want to get to a result you haven't already seen but don't see the way to it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Agreed. I'm just not clear on what's "ruined" by the PC not getting to set the world state exactly the way he wants it.

When I did it, I was unaware that there was a third possible option. I somehow didn't know that until I'd done most of the work to install a different Divine. The problem is that the game assumes that you don't ever change your mind when faced with new information. The game continued to act as if my preference was different from what it was, and provided me only options to advance that incorrect preference.

I wanted to publicly withdraw my support for someone, but the game seemed to assume perfect foreknowledge on the part of the player.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The biggest problem is that the morality system is simplistic.

This is why morality systems should go away.

[slimgrin]

People have been asking for this **** since the original Kotor possibly earlier than that. At least Dragon age does it.

 

This. DA:O frankly craps all over Mass Effect in this regard. 

[Seboist]

This. DA:O frankly craps all over Mass Effect in this regard. 

 

DA:O craps all over ME in terms of tangible impact from choices as well. Those allies you recruit for the battle in denerim? They saddled up and fought alongside you in the actual gameplay. The ones in ME3 you recruit OTOH? You see a four second cutscene.