191 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

I find it surprising how the idea that it's only a tool keeps being repeated in these games.

Not only that, but some players defend it with the argument that it unjustly is the target of prejudice. Another strange notion, as if one could be bigoted against murderers.

Now, the thing about the statement that " it depends on how it's used" is that it implies there is the correct way. That sounds as if there were two separate schools of blood magic, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Mages who perform repulsive acts like human sacrifices and dealing with demons aren't "misusing" this tool. Such things are and will always be part of regular blood magic. Merril only managed to use it ethically because she avoided going beyond the basics.

I'm sure you are ready to bring up those rare examples of harmless use and I'm aware of them. However, I do not believe that's a good reason to allow blood magic to be used openly and freely.

I'd rather suggest that instead of being fully outlawed, its practice should be limited to special circumstances.

[thats1evildude]

I've never seen blood magic used "harmlessly." Even when it was used with the absolute best intentions, it often ends up doing as much or more harm than good. Jowan ended up as a hunted criminal. Merrill's clan turned on her. The Wardens became the slaves of Corypheus.

Spoiler

Isseya ended up killing the griffons.

Blood magic cannot be used without cost. Those who believe otherwise are fooling themselves.

[Spectr61]

Nah, used it extensively the last time allowed, DA2; cost was nothing, notwithstanding all the dead enemies.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As long as the only blood you use comes from yourself or a willing participant, I don't see a problem with blood magic.

 

I'd rather suggest that instead of being fully outlawed, its practice should be limited to special circumstances.

The Chantry nations have already done this. Only those with clearance are allowed to use it, and only for the task where it is needed like for example making a phylactery to track mages.  

[Bardox9]

Schools of magic, including blood magic, are not inherently good or evil. It is the how and why it is used that would make the mage using it good or evil.

[nightscrawl]

As long as the only blood you use comes from yourself or a willing participant, I don't see a problem with blood magic.

 
But that's the problem. Dorian uses this exact phrasing when talking about blood magic. Then he goes on to say, "What if you need more power? You always need more." And that is the point.
 
I always like to fall back on David Gaider's description of why blood magic is bad:
It's not corruption in the way that the Blight is a corruption... A lot of it is opinion and fear, [of] the things that a Blood Mage is capable of. Which, as we're moving forward, we'd like to show that a little bit more, especially the mind control. And it is based on people who have that kind of power, the ability to influence other people's minds, the temptation to misuse it is a corruption. That kind of power is corrupting, right? That's the danger, not a physical "I suddenly turn to the dark side and my eyes have gone black" kind of corruption.

[straykat]

 
But that's the problem. Dorian uses this exact phrasing when talking about blood magic. Then he goes on to say, "What if you need more power? You always need more." And that is the point.
 
I always like to fall back on David Gaider's description of why blood magic is bad:
It's not corruption in the way that the Blight is a corruption... A lot of it is opinion and fear, [of] the things that a Blood Mage is capable of. Which, as we're moving forward, we'd like to show that a little bit more, especially the mind control. And it is based on people who have that kind of power, the ability to influence other people's minds, the temptation to misuse it is a corruption. That kind of power is corrupting, right? That's the danger, not a physical "I suddenly turn to the dark side and my eyes have gone black" kind of corruption.

 

That's one thing I thought Gaider intended as bad.. the mind control. He got his original idea from D&D Charm spells. Except Charm is mostly overlooked as benign or something. Oddly. That's one improvement DA made on the idea --- that it's a screwed up thing to do.

 

Otherwise, I can't really call cutting oneself as "evil". It's just stupid. What I have a bigger problem with is bleeding other people. And I hate the mechanic used in such a trivial way.. like no one giving a second thought as you drain Aveline or a pet bear. This cheapens the whole idea. I'm hoping the next game will do it better. Otherwise, they may as well avoid it like they did in DAI.

 

And I don't even have to mention demons.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 
But that's the problem. Dorian uses this exact phrasing when talking about blood magic. Then he goes on to say, "What if you need more power? You always need more." And that is the point.
 
I always like to fall back on David Gaider's description of why blood magic is bad:
It's not corruption in the way that the Blight is a corruption... A lot of it is opinion and fear, [of] the things that a Blood Mage is capable of. Which, as we're moving forward, we'd like to show that a little bit more, especially the mind control. And it is based on people who have that kind of power, the ability to influence other people's minds, the temptation to misuse it is a corruption. That kind of power is corrupting, right? That's the danger, not a physical "I suddenly turn to the dark side and my eyes have gone black" kind of corruption.

But that's no more corrupting then a regular person being in a position of power being tempted to abuse that power and have results just as deadly as misusing blood magic. But like people in power, if the person using the blood magic can resist that temptation, then there is no problem. 

[nightscrawl]

That's one thing I thought Gaider intended as bad.. the mind control. He got his original idea from D&D Charm spells. Except Charm is mostly overlooked as benign or something. Oddly. That's one improvement DA made on the idea --- that it's a screwed up thing to do.

 

Otherwise, I can't really call cutting oneself as "evil". It's just stupid. What I have a bigger problem with is bleeding other people. And I hate the mechanic used in such a trivial way.. like no one giving a second thought as you drain Aveline or a pet bear. This cheapens the whole idea. I'm hoping the next game will do it better. Otherwise, they may as well avoid it like they did in DAI.

 

And I don't even have to mention demons.

 

If we go to Tevinter in the next game I think there is a real opportunity to incorporate blood magic in a meaningful way. Unfortunately, the problem is that if it's just a standard spec like all of the others, they likely will not want to give it the appropriate context because then it would be given significantly more content than the other specs.

 

If that's the case, then I agree they should leave it out of the spec lineup. But I do think they should address it in some way, even if they player can't take it up themselves.

[ShadowLordXII]

 
But that's the problem. Dorian uses this exact phrasing when talking about blood magic. Then he goes on to say, "What if you need more power? You always need more." And that is the point.
 
I always like to fall back on David Gaider's description of why blood magic is bad:
It's not corruption in the way that the Blight is a corruption... A lot of it is opinion and fear, [of] the things that a Blood Mage is capable of. Which, as we're moving forward, we'd like to show that a little bit more, especially the mind control. And it is based on people who have that kind of power, the ability to influence other people's minds, the temptation to misuse it is a corruption. That kind of power is corrupting, right? That's the danger, not a physical "I suddenly turn to the dark side and my eyes have gone black" kind of corruption.

 

Noted, Blood Magic is inherently dangerous and harmful.

 

How does that make it much more worst than other schools of magic like:

 

Elemental Magic which allows you to burn people alive; freeze people to death; use the Earth itself to punch or petrify people or use electricity to zap people until they're fried crispy.

 

Spirit Magic which allows you to Drain Magic; Siphon Mana; Draw power from the dead and dying; Crush or cut people with telekinetic power; or my personal favorite, turn people into living bombs which can also get other people infected so that they turn into living bombs.

 

Entrophy Magic allows you Curse people so they suffer until they die; afflict the with debilitating injuries and harm; paralyze or put people to sleep and then send lethal nightmares into your sleeping victims minds; and even curse them with inordinate bad luck that makes them more likely to die.

 

And that's before we even get into specialization classes like Keepers who manipulate Nature itself; Force Mages who use Gravity to crush their enemies; Rift Mages who channel the power of the Fade/Veil into deadly arts; Necromancers who summon spirits to horrify and screw people up; and Battlemages who literally thrive on the chaos of combat and death.

 

The only classes that couldn't be abused are the Knight Enchanters; Arcane Warriors; Creation Spells and Spirit Healers. Which is by design as two of these spell schools are for outright healing support and the other two are meant to make mages into melee front-liners.

 

In short, the idea that Blood Magic is so much worst and more evil than other schools of magic is laughable. It certainly is dangerous and risky as the games have been fairly clear about, but again, how is it any worst than the other schools of magic that I just described? It's just one more method among many which a mage could do to hurt others if they decided to abuse their Maker-given gift.

[nightscrawl]

Noted, Blood Magic is inherently dangerous and harmful.

...

In short, the idea that Blood Magic is so much worst and more evil than other schools of magic is laughable.

Except I didn't say that, and neither did David Gaider.

[ShadowLordXII]

Except I didn't say that, and neither did David Gaider.

 

You kind of did in your OP and your quotes by Gaider and Dorian were being used to back up your point.

 

In fact, your exact words when quoting Gaider were "I always like to fall back on David Gaider's description of why blood magic is bad."

 

Gaider's post notes that Blood Magic is inherently dangerous since its inherent abilities make it tempting and corrupting for anyone who decides to use Blood Magic. This is in the context of answering his interviewers question on if you could be a good person and still be a blood mage. Gaider's answer implies the idea that Blood Magic is inherently evil and corrupting by nature.

 

So from my understanding, you were in fact stating that Blood Magic is inherently bad.

 

I'm merely responding by pointing out that "non-evil" classes of magic can be just as dangerous, lethal and malicious as Blood Magic if not more dangerous.

[straykat]

You kind of did in your OP and your quotes by Gaider and Dorian were being used to back up your point.

 

In fact, your exact words when quoting Gaider were "I always like to fall back on David Gaider's description of why blood magic is bad."

 

Gaider's post notes that Blood Magic is inherently dangerous since its inherent abilities make it tempting and corrupting for anyone who decides to use Blood Magic. This is in the context of answering his interviewers question on if you could be a good person and still be a blood mage. Gaider's answer implies the idea that Blood Magic is inherently evil and corrupting by nature.

 

So from my understanding, you were in fact stating that Blood Magic is inherently bad.

 

I'm merely responding by pointing out that "non-evil" classes of magic can be just as dangerous, lethal and malicious as Blood Magic if not more dangerous.

 

Yes, those are just dangerous as a "hemmorage" spell or something. They're all offensive attacks in one way or another.

 

That's not what makes Blood Magic forbidden though. It's the "blood" part. And the mind control. The slavishness of the whole thing.

 

Any of these other schools are fueled by Will. Which is more independent and disciplined. That's something to be admired.. the Chantry never had rules against it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Any of these other schools are fueled by Will. Which is more independent and disciplined. That's something to be admired.. the Chantry never had rules against it.

Well, other than the whole "You'll live your life as a ward of the Chantry state" rule. 

[ShadowLordXII]

Yes, those are just dangerous as a "hemmorage" spell or something. They're all offensive attacks in one way or another.

 

That's not what makes Blood Magic forbidden though. It's the "blood" part. And the mind control. The slavishness of the whole thing.

 

Any of these other schools are fueled by Will. Which is more independent and disciplined. That's something to be admired.. the Chantry never had rules against it.

 

Again, how is mind control worst than turning another sentient being into a literal ticking time bomb?

 

Or how Entropy Spells can have you kill someone in their sleep? Hex someone with bad luck so that breathing becomes a life or death situation?

 

And the blood part is merely an alternative fuel source to lyrium or mana. A crude and harmful one, no denying that. Nor do I deny that you can do terrible and horrible things with Blood Magic as the games have been clear to show us.

 

I just fail to see how Blood Magic is so much worst than other schools of magic that Blood Magic is banned without question and considered inherently evil. Whereas spells which allow mages to burn people alive, turn people into bombs or kill them in their sleep are apparently okay by comparison.

 

In fact, I remember one scene in Origins where a mage instructor shot a full-powered Fireball at his student to test the student's Barrier spell. I love Chantry standards...so many holes and contradictions...

[straykat]

Well, other than the whole "You'll live your life as a ward of the Chantry state" rule. 

 

I'll chalk that up to "It's a work in progress". Personally, I made Leli the Divine.. so that'll help.

 

I think we have to partly blame Tevinter for setting this course to begin with. While the Chantry understands normal Will based magic is OK, Mages still can't live down the slavish legacy of the Imperium. That needs to change, but that isn't entirely the Chantry's fault. Tevinter was so screwed up it shaped the whole course of the world, even after they were gone. And it'll do no good by adding more fuel to the fire by embracing Blood Magic again. What Magic needs to be is Inspiring. Not that.

[GoldenGail3]

Well, other than the whole "You'll live your life as a ward of the Chantry state" rule.

And true; but I hated the mages so much during my canon. I refused to do it over again...

...... I am so mean..... That last post I wrote was the meanest thing I've ever written...

[straykat]

...... I am so mean..... That last post I wrote was the meanest thing I've ever written...

 

Which one?

[GoldenGail3]

Which one?

Oh go look at why Vivienne Romance-y thingy and you'll see me berating a guy for PMing me randomly.... Lol, he did actually..

[ModernAcademic]

"I've never heard of blood magic purifying anything."

 

Morrigan does the DR and frees the soul of an Old God from the corruption of the taint... through blood magic.

Not everything is set in stone.

 

Blood, like any substance, can be used in many ways. The form which the mage chooses to use it is what will define whether it is harmful, harmless or even beneficial. 

 

Can't templars use lyrium to lobotomise mages? Is that harmless or even beneficial?

In the same way, lyrium can be used to enter the Fade and contact spirits who offer wisdom and advice.

 

Using blood to summon demons is wrong. Why? Because it involves sacrifice. You end a life for no reason other than to fuel a magic rite.

Using a ritual that involves blood to save a soul from the darkness is right. Why? Because you avoided a life being lost to the madness and the corruption of the taint.

[LightningPoodle]

Magic is magic. From what I've seen, blood magic is either done by mages that feel they have no way out, are to lazy to use other means, or are purely in it for the power it will grant them. Those that feel they have no way out. It's likely that the mage themselves are not thinking clearly. When you've got Knights coming to cut your head off, are you going to remain cool? Unlikely. Jowan is an example of this. Those that are too lazy. Too lazy to take the time and a safer course, they immediately think "blood magic", without thinking through everything. Merrill is an example of this. Those that are purely in for the power. 'nough said. Tevinter Magisters are an example of this.

 

Basically, we have seen it used without much thought about the consequences it's use will bring. But, when someone like, Solas for example (I know he hasn't but he strikes me as a guy who knows what's what), uses it with that thought in mind, and knows exactly what he needs to get out of it, and just knows exactly what he's doing, blood magic is just another form of magic. As safe as any other when it's used in the right way.

[Abyss108]

Of course it isn't inherently evil. The only reason we only see the bad cases of blood magic is because its banned, so the only people who use it are those desperate and terrified of other things. Put power in the hands of someone afraid and with nothing to lose, of course it will end badly.

 

What's wrong with a healer cutting herself to save the lives of other people? Where's the harm in that, other than to the person who willingly chose it?

[thats1evildude]

Blood magic is worse than regular magic for three reasons.

First, a regular mage is ultimately limited by how much mana they can summon. Yes, a mage can set people on fire or freeze them in place, but there will be a point where the mage reaches the limits of their abilities. They can drink lyrium potions to restore mana, but lyrium is addictive and a mage can only carry so many potions.

Blood magic allows a mage to game the system and use magic far beyond the limits of their ability. Worse, even greater power can be achieved by inflicting pain and death on others. The more evil the user, the more powerful the blood mage.

Secondly, as nasty as the idea of burning or freezing someone alive might be, those are only combat applications of magic. A blood mage can use their powers to control virtually anyone at any time; I can't burn someone into following my whims.

Third, blood magic allows mages to summon and bind demons. I don't think I need to explain why that's bad.

[Dieb]

This argument is still led the wrong way. In my opinion, Blood Magic is like morphine.

 

"Even its noblest utilisations come with a price", as the very codex quotes an experienced Tevinter magister, and despite they obviously are in no way whatsoever "evil" (by mere logic you would need a consciousness for that) there's hardly an abundance of well-intended uses. It would be unwarrantable to allow unrestricted, unsupervised usage - not because of its inherent qualities, but because of man's.

[Patchwork]

I don't think blood magic is inherently worse than the other schools of magic (remember those BW? Bring them back in DA4) it's the history of the practice that makes it into a dark arts type of magic. 

 

Tevinter used blood magic, sacrificing countless slaves because it was cheap and easy, to do horrific things so it's understandable that with the decline of the empire and the rise of the Chantry the whole technique is shunned including the purely benign spells.