191 réponses à ce sujet

[Catilina]

The magic it magic, according to me it depends, who uses it how. The trouble with blood magic, that may give too big power, and the man wants more and more always. Because of this not absolutely evil, who uses it, but the opportunity that he becomes it resides in him.

[Ieldra]

But that's the problem. Dorian uses this exact phrasing when talking about blood magic. Then he goes on to say, "What if you need more power? You always need more." And that is the point.

No. In the real world, we occasionally run into problems that could be solved by the removal of another person. Still, only a very small minority actually goes and murders someone. Killing someone for magical power is a temptation, but people are usually extremely hesitant to kill someone. Blood magic is no more intrinsically corrupting than any other deadly weapon. Even less so, I could make the point, since you can get *some* use out of it while limiting yourself to yourself as a source of magical power. "You always need more" is a catch-all phrase used for propaganda. Of course we do. Everyone does. We want more money, more power, more sex, more anything. And yes, of course any tool that may get us that at a cost for another is tempting. Human sacrifice for magical power is completely unexceptional in this.

Human sacrifice is only special in that regard because it's only available for the mageborn. Which means I'd expect the percentage of all mages who come to use human sacrifice comparable to the percentage of people who murder someone in cold blood for a significant benefit (rather than from passion).

[Ieldra]

If I may add one more thing: blood magic doesn't necessarily cost a life, so rather than killing people for magical power, Bioware's writers should've told us about some blood mages keeping stables of blood slaves they occasionally drain of blood for power without killing them, similar to what is told in some vampire stories. That's a much more believable setup, and just as evil. It would be more common for two reasons: the inhibition to kill isn't invoked, and it's more economical. This would be akin to something like forced prostitution in the real world, which I believe is a more prevalent problem than cold-blooded murder.

[Qun00]

As long as the only blood you use comes from yourself or a willing participant, I don't see a problem with blood magic.



The Chantry nations have already done this. Only those with clearance are allowed to use it, and only for the task where it is needed like for example making a phylactery to track mages.

That's nice to talk about in theory, but it rarely ever comes from a willing participant.

Good luck finding a blood mage that does it that way. It is one in one million.

No. In the real world, we occasionally run into problems that could be solved by the removal of another person. Still, only a very small minority actually goes and murders someone. Killing someone for magical power is a temptation, but people are usually extremely hesitant to kill someone. Blood magic is no more intrinsically corrupting than any other deadly weapon. Even less so, I could make the point, since you can get *some* use out of it while limiting yourself to yourself as a source of magical power. "You always need more" is a catch-all phrase used for propaganda. Of course we do. Everyone does. We want more money, more power, more sex, more anything. And yes, of course any tool that may get us that at a cost for another is tempting. Human sacrifice for magical power is completely unexceptional in this.Human sacrifice is only special in that regard because it's only available for the mageborn. Which means I'd expect the percentage of all mages who come to use human sacrifice comparable to the percentage of people who murder someone in cold blood for a significant benefit (rather than from passion).

You've played these games, you know the percentage isn't small. Among regular mages? Yes. Among blood mages? No.

If I may add one more thing: blood magic doesn't necessarily cost a life, so rather than killing people for magical power, Bioware's writers should've told us about some blood mages keeping stables of blood slaves they occasionally drain of blood for power without killing them, similar to what is told in some vampire stories. That's a much more believable setup, and just as evil. It would be more common for two reasons: the inhibition to kill isn't invoked, and it's more economical. This would be akin to something like forced prostitution in the real world, which I believe is a more prevalent problem than cold-blooded murder.

Blood magic isn't just a power boost. Dealing with demons is one of its main forms of use and that often ruins lives directly or indirectly.

And of course, summoning them requires... that's right.

[Qun00]

I'm gonna be that guy and spell it out. Blood magic is evil by nature, even if you manage to find a good use for it.

When Merril did something as simple and basic as cutting her wrist to dispel a magical barrier, Bethany said she could feel the presence of a demon at that moment.

And Avernus mentions that blood magic is knowledge that comes from demons.

Of course it isn't inherently evil. The only reason we only see the bad cases of blood magic is because its banned, so the only people who use it are those desperate and terrified of other things. Put power in the hands of someone afraid and with nothing to lose, of course it will end badly.
 
What's wrong with a healer cutting herself to save the lives of other people? Where's the harm in that, other than to the person who willingly chose it?

Tevinter says otherwise.

Blood magic is worse than regular magic for three reasons.
First, a regular mage is ultimately limited by how much mana they can summon. Yes, a mage can set people on fire or freeze them in place, but there will be a point where the mage reaches the limits of their abilities. They can drink lyrium potions to restore mana, but lyrium is addictive and a mage can only carry so many potions.
Blood magic allows a mage to game the system and use magic far beyond the limits of their ability. Worse, even greater power can be achieved by inflicting pain and death on others. The more evil the user, the more powerful the blood mage.
Secondly, as nasty as the idea of burning or freezing someone alive might be, those are only combat applications of magic. A blood mage can use their powers to control virtually anyone at any time; I can't burn someone into following my whims.
Third, blood magic allows mages to summon and bind demons. I don't think I need to explain why that's bad.

Sadly, it seems you have to explain why it's bad.

[Abyss108]

 

 

So what's wrong with the example I gave?

 

You can't just point to a country that uses all types of magic for evil and say blood magic is evil because of that. By that logic, any type of magic is evil since Tevinter uses it.

[Catilina]

I just want the blood magic to back. Why? Because the blood magic living in Thedas. So: I would like to decide whether I use it or not. Its simple.

[vertigomez]

Solas says that the use of blood magic makes it harder to enter the Fade. I find this curious.

[Qun00]

So what's wrong with the example I gave?

You can't just point to a country that uses all types of magic for evil and say blood
magic is evil because of that. By that logic, any type of magic is evil since Tevinter uses it.

It is evidence that blood magic isn't something that only does harm when someone is desperate.

That said, Tevinter isn't entirely at fault here. After all, this is exactly the way this kind of magic works.

[Abyss108]

It is evidence that blood magic isn't something that only does harm when someone is desperate.

That said, Tevinter isn't entirely at fault here. After all, this is exactly the way this kind of magic works.

 

No, it is evidence that if you give power to someone evil, they will use it for evil. Is normal magic evil? Tevinter uses that for evil too.

 

Whats wrong with my healer example? That's a person who was commented on in the game that uses blood magic. How was she evil?

[AFA]

Blood magic was hated in real life because it used the suffering of others as fuel. Cultures like the Celts, Maya, and the Aztecs saw it as sacred however.

 

I always thought blood magic was truly hated in the DA universe because it allowed the domination of people's will, and is the only magic capable of doing so.

[Dancing_Dolphin]

Solas says that the use of blood magic makes it harder to enter the Fade. I find this curious.

Yeah, me too.

[sandalisthemaker]

Again, how is mind control worst than turning another sentient being into a literal ticking time bomb?

 

Or how Entropy Spells can have you kill someone in their sleep? Hex someone with bad luck so that breathing becomes a life or death situation?

 

And the blood part is merely an alternative fuel source to lyrium or mana. A crude and harmful one, no denying that. Nor do I deny that you can do terrible and horrible things with Blood Magic as the games have been clear to show us.

 

I just fail to see how Blood Magic is so much worst than other schools of magic that Blood Magic is banned without question and considered inherently evil. Whereas spells which allow mages to burn people alive, turn people into bombs or kill them in their sleep are apparently okay by comparison.

 

In fact, I remember one scene in Origins where a mage instructor shot a full-powered Fireball at his student to test the student's Barrier spell. I love Chantry standards...so many holes and contradictions...

 

But other spells are not considered okay.

 

They are just as dangerous, which is why mages have always been regarded with fear and suspicion, and considered dangerous.  It's why the Circles were created in the first place. 

[Spectr61]

Noted, Blood Magic is inherently dangerous and harmful.
 
How does that make it much more worst than other schools of magic like:
 
Elemental Magic which allows you to burn people alive; freeze people to death; use the Earth itself to punch or petrify people or use electricity to zap people until they're fried crispy.
 
Spirit Magic which allows you to Drain Magic; Siphon Mana; Draw power from the dead and dying; Crush or cut people with telekinetic power; or my personal favorite, turn people into living bombs which can also get other people infected so that they turn into living bombs.
 
Entrophy Magic allows you Curse people so they suffer until they die; afflict the with debilitating injuries and harm; paralyze or put people to sleep and then send lethal nightmares into your sleeping victims minds; and even curse them with inordinate bad luck that makes them more likely to die.
 
And that's before we even get into specialization classes like Keepers who manipulate Nature itself; Force Mages who use Gravity to crush their enemies; Rift Mages who channel the power of the Fade/Veil into deadly arts; Necromancers who summon spirits to horrify and screw people up; and Battlemages who literally thrive on the chaos of combat and death.
 
The only classes that couldn't be abused are the Knight Enchanters; Arcane Warriors; Creation Spells and Spirit Healers. Which is by design as two of these spell schools are for outright healing support and the other two are meant to make mages into melee front-liners.
 
In short, the idea that Blood Magic is so much worst and more evil than other schools of magic is laughable. It certainly is dangerous and risky as the games have been fairly clear about, but again, how is it any worst than the other schools of magic that I just described? It's just one more method among many which a mage could do to hurt others if they decided to abuse their Maker-given gift.

This.

Well written, and well done, sir.

[vertigomez]

I always thought blood magic was truly hated in the DA universe because it allowed the domination of people's will, and is the only magic capable of doing so.

This is what horrifies me, at least. If someone wants to make my insides explode, or set me on fire, or cut me down with a sword? Fine, at least that's honest, and you always have the presence of mind to, you know... flee for your life. Or fight back, or whatever.

Mind control is a whole helluva lot scarier. It can make you light yourself on fire, or attack your friends and loved ones. That's a hundred million times worse than Walking Bomb, IMO.

[Spectr61]

Blood magic is worse than regular magic for three reasons.
First, a regular mage is ultimately limited by how much mana they can summon. Yes, a mage can set people on fire or freeze them in place, but there will be a point where the mage reaches the limits of their abilities. They can drink lyrium potions to restore mana, but lyrium is addictive and a mage can only carry so many potions.
Blood magic allows a mage to game the system and use magic far beyond the limits of their ability. Worse, even greater power can be achieved by inflicting pain and death on others. The more evil the user, the more powerful the blood mage.
Secondly, as nasty as the idea of burning or freezing someone alive might be, those are only combat applications of magic. A blood mage can use their powers to control virtually anyone at any time; I can't burn someone into following my whims.
Third, blood magic allows mages to summon and bind demons. I don't think I need to explain why that's bad.

As far as my logic goes,

1. Just because my gun has a larger caliber than yours does not make mine inherently evil, and yours not. Secondly on this point, a properly built Rift Mage has no mana limiting, just cool down limits, which I assume blood magic also has. (Like DA2)

2. When I choose to employ my gun is entirely up to me, whether in peacetime, or combat. This choice applies to any gun, regardless of caliber.

3. If my gun allows me to summon spirits, why assume I will summon a bad one. I could just as well summon a kind, benign one that will help me pick daisies.

[diaspora2k5]

Blood magic isn't inherently evil but it's stupid to actually use. It's basically the "monkey's paw" of magic.

[Aren]

Blood magic is an art of magic born from pain and violence which is empowered even more with pain and death,it has disastrous effect on the veil and it attract demons like a magnet into the physical world.

[abisha]

the rules on blood magic have been rewrite more then stars exist.

 

but the latest version 100.000 blood magic is only considered blood magic when blood is drawn from a slave/unwilling.

other it's just magic in a other state... i wonder if they gonna go with wild or chaos magic still available to enter DA universe.

[Lord Snow]

The problem with blood magic is that it allows a mage to cast spells beyond their normal capability and there is always the temptation that you can "do more".

 

1) Cast spells using mana (drawn from the Fade). But as the codex and David Gaider's books show there is a limit to this, each mage has his/her own capability.

2) Use lyrium (when mana limits are reached). Spells powered by lyrium are also more powerful. 

3) Use your own blood (when lyrium runs out eventually). Spells powered by blood are more powerful.

 

You can't use all your blood without killing yourself so what if:

 

4) Use the blood of others - limitless resource for casting, basically unlimited power, potential to control hordes of demons etc. Next thing you know you're in the Black City. With this much power it's going to hit the fan eventually.

 

It's all about the temptation like Dorian says, what if you want more? Of course you want more, you always want more. A normal mage can do some damage, but a blood mage can exceed that damage by far. If normal magic is kept under control, then it makes sense for blood magic being outright banned, the stuff is just way too dangerous.

[Qun00]

Blood magic is an art of magic born from pain and violence which is empowered even more with pain and death,it has disastrous effect on the veil and it attract demons like a magnet into the physical world.

It does. Hence the Merril and Bethany example. The connection to demons is there even in its most basic form.

As far as my logic goes,
1. Just because my gun has a larger caliber than yours does not make mine inherently evil, and yours not. Secondly on this point, a properly built Rift Mage has no mana limiting, just cool down limits, which I assume blood magic also has. (Like DA2)
2. When I choose to employ my gun is entirely up to me, whether in peacetime, or combat. This choice applies to any gun, regardless of caliber.
3. If my gun allows me to summon spirits, why assume I will summon a bad one. I could just as well summon a kind, benign one that will help me pick daisies.

Blood magic is not a gun. Do you load your rounds with other victims blood? The damage is already done before you make your perfectly responsible decision of when to fire it.

Benign spirits aren't like demons. They seldom have the desire to visit the physical world at all. And binding them is likely to alter their nature as it happened to Solas' friend.

[Ieldra]

the rules on blood magic have been rewrite more then stars exist.

Indeed. Take any two sources and you won't find blood magic rules consistent between them. The only constant is its basic function: draw magical power through drawing blood from someone. Everything else has been added according to a particular writer's vision, and then ignored by the next one if inconvenient. So I won't judge blood magic by anything but this basic function.

[Qun00]

Indeed. Take any two sources and you won't find blood magic rules consistent between them. The only constant is its basic function: draw magical power through drawing blood from someone. Everything else has been added according to a particular writer's vision, and then ignored by the next one if inconvenient. So I won't judge blood magic by anything but this basic function.

Sources on the Internet, perhaps. But the games have been mostly consistent.

[Ieldra]

Sources on the Internet, perhaps. But the games have been mostly consistent.

No. For instance, you could learn blood magic from books in DAO but in DA2 you had to contact a demon. WoT says there is a necessary element of pain but there is no evidence of that whenever people use their own blood. One part of the lore says blood magic draws demons, but another says it makes contact with the Fade more difficult, which is contradictory. So what are *really* the rules of blood magic, beyond what people believe without sufficient evidence?

[Aren]

Blood magic is in itself a school of magic but at the same time it fall also in the category of the resources of magic.

It is a specific school of magic because there are several unique spell that can't be performed without the use of blood (mind controlling,binding rituals,ecc..)

However blood it is also used as a resource to cast spell similarly to what lyrium is used for.

Lyrium is just the blood of others being called the titans,however their blood si more safe for the mages because clearly it not attract the creatures of the fade but since the lyrium "sing" after a constant use  it leads to mental instability.

Whatever the resource mages and templars should not abuse of Lyrium or blood magic because those resources are like opium and they generate dependency and mental instability.

Unlike lyrium blood as a resource not only require often slaves and unwilling participants (because frankly there is little than a mage can do only with his own blood) but it also attract demons and so far produced the slavery/sacrifices  society and menatlity which endured into Thedas since the times of the ancient Arlathan