191 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

But that's because blood magic hasn't been implemented in a major way in DAI besides the Warden mages' ritual.  And there human sacrifice and mind control was involved.

 

Last Flight finally portrayed blood magic in a serious way, showing the real danger to the caster themself along with the consequences of its use. I'm waiting until all of Magekiller's issues are bundled together in hardcover before purchasing it, but I have high hopes for an accurate portrayal of blood magic there too. 

 

I'm talking about blood magic being empowered by pain and the violence of one's death, which was first brought up in WoT vol.1. That aspect being summarily abandoned wouldn't make sense if they were committed to blood magic functioning like that. 

[sandalisthemaker]

I'm talking about blood magic being empowered by pain and the violence of one's death, which was first brought up in WoT vol.1. That aspect being summarily abandoned wouldn't make sense if they were committed to blood magic functioning like that. 

 

They did though.  The Warden mages slit the throats of their fellows to summon demons.  That's pretty much violent death right there. 

 

As far as more pain/violence/death = more powerful blood magic spells,  that would be tricky to implement during gameplay, but cutscenes could do that concept justice in the next game.    We are likely going to Tevinter after all. 

 

Also, in order to have enough power to enter the Fade physically, Corypheus required the simultaneous deaths of hundreds of elven slaves, whether by slitting their throats or hurling them onto the Claw of Dumat.   That's pretty much violent death right there as well. 

[Qis]

The only problem with Blood Magic is it use blood, for the begining Blood Mages use own blood, but later they think "why should i waste my own blood?", then they started to use someone else blood and next they involved in slavery to get free blood suply

[sandalisthemaker]

The only problem with Blood Magic is it use blood, for the begining Blood Mages use own blood, but later they think "why should i waste my own blood?", then they started to use someone else blood and next they involved in slavery to get free blood suply

 

 

Qistina?!  IS THAT YOU??!!

[ShadowLordXII]

1) I never said that it can only be learned through demons, only that it is traditionally (read: commonly) learned from demons. There are exceptions to the rule, but they are extremely rare, so much so that a templar or anybody is going to stop and think, "hm, maybe they learned their magic from a book or something."

 

Which, by the way, is extremely stupid, because if all magic can be learned straight from books, then what is even the point of having a mentor?

 

2) Jowan's method involves killing someone to save another, as opposed to using lyrium and some mages. Yeah, sounds good to me.

 

Avernus' research and use of blood magic results in the tower being possessed by demons (and consequently, Demon Sophia), and also the Veil being torn open and only TEMPORARILY sealed. As soon as he kicks the bucket, that seal goes away, and it's only because of YOUR help that it gets fixed. Yeah, sounds good to me.

 

Merrill's eluvian would have been used by a demon to escape it's prison and possess her, except the keeper intervened, sealed it within herself, and then died as an abomination, all in order to save Merrill from that fate. Mm. Yeah, that sounds good to me.

 

I haven't played Legacy yet, so I can't speak for Malcolm.

 

Morrigan saves the Grey Warden's life, but also damns her son to being a schizophrenic and almost loses him to Flemmeth. As opposed to being a normal boy. Sounds good to me. 

 

Phylacteries are responsible for the deaths of multiple mages who just want to live free lives, which is the entire reason the Mage/Templar War kicked off. Mm. Yeah, sounds good to me. Just because the Chantry does it, doesn't mean it's good or for good. 

 

3) Not much is known about rift magic, because it's a completely new field that came about as a result of the Breach and all it's wonderful shenanigans. You can argue about that all you want, but there's no supporting evidence for it or against it. Similarly, I can't seem to find a whole lot of information about necromancy, other than it's creepy, weird, but uses wisps/minor spirits to reanimate corpses, similar to how a spirit warrior would use spirits.

 

4) Entropy doesn't take hold of their WILL, and just because effects are 'similar' or 'worse' doesn't mean that the processes and effects are exactly 1:1. I can burn someone's hand, or they can touch a hot pot, but that doesn't mean that both should be evaluated (morally) the same just because the results were the same.

 

5) You're putting words in my mouth, here.

 

I never said that you were more prone to possession, only implied that your overall magical ability is weakened (due to your ability to access the Fade being weakened). You'll eventually stop being able to dream, even, so who knows what happens to your soul when you're dead?

 

Also, Solas is someone who damned his own people in his attempt to save them from slavery, and is also starting a race war with his endgame being that there will be no more Veil, period, and all of humanity being destroyed in the process. Respectable people my foot, people in-universe who argue in favor of Blood Magic all seem to be entirely short-sighted and not thinking about anything thoroughly.

 

1) Fair enough. I doubt that its as rare or uncommon as you assert however. A mentor can also share their experience with a protegee. This includes tips and helpful stuff that can't be learned from a book. For all we know, the book is only so broad and having an actual teacher to learn from rather than merely study off of can allow a mage to avoid common mistakes that they'd otherwise wouldn't know about.

 

2) Jowan's ritual was the lesser of three evils: Either sacrifice Isolde to save Connor; Kill a child; or risk everyone in Redcliffe by going to the Circle for help. Also, no one forced Isolde into that ritual, she choose to sacrifice her own life...appropriate considering that the whole Redcliffe mess was ultimately her fault.

 

Where does it say that Avernus only temporarily closed the Soldier's Peak rift?

 

You don't know that about Merrill's situation. She does eventually fix the mirror after DA2 and last we heard, she hasn't been possessed by any demons. The Keeper got herself killed for nothing as Merrill already came prepared both with her own power/experience and having local demon slayer Champion Hawke and friends as back-up.

 

It was either that or sacrifice a Warden's life to kill the Archdemon. Plus, Kieran wasn't a crazy kid. He was stronger and smarter than his years, but he seemed like a well-mannered and mature child. Flemeth was never even going to hurt the kid, she was just toying with Morrigan to test her and assert herself as alpha queen.

 

The mage-templar war kicked off for reasons far worst than the phylacteries. In theory, they do make some sense as not all runaway mages want to go have free and happy lives. Some would like nothing more than to use their power for evil. This is a knock against the Chantry since using this does honestly make them hypocrites in a sense.

 

3) My point is that the possibility is present until confirmed or denied.

 

4) No. Entropy Spells specifically target the life force of their target through affecting the body and the mind. You can physically weaken people or outright paralyze them; You can hex them to make them more vulnerable to just about anything from the elements to lethal bad luck; you can disorient people through mental manipulation and stun them with brute force fear; you can put people to sleep and them kill them with horrifying nightmares; and need I say anything more about the Drain Life tree of magic?

 

It's not a complete 1:1 comparison, but it looks like Entropy can be just as deadly as blood magic considering that these spells very heavily screw with someone's mind and will along with their body.

 

5) You said that using blood magic makes it harder to enter the Fade.

 

I'm pointing out that this seems like an in-universe contradiction since blood magic is also supposed to make you more vulnerable to demons. So how would you become more prone to demonic possession if you have a weaker connection to the Fade where demons come from?

 

The Tevinter mage you quoted is part of a society where slavery and human trafficking of sentient humans and elves to become slaves are okay. Solas makes mistakes, true. But he is also one of the oldest mages in the world and way more knowledgeable about magic in general than literally anyone else on the planet. So I'd sooner take his word over anyone else to be perfectly blunt. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

I think blood magic isn't evil by itself, but that it lends itself more to evil acts than other types so we can't say that it is a simple tool like any other. 

 

All power offers temptation and corrupts. But from the games themselves, it seems that blood magic takes it a step further, since someone must be harmed in order to perform it. So the people who resort to it, as a general rule, are of a more ruthless or desperate bent than most mages. And as Dorian says, you can always get more power, beyond what you already have. You just need to go a bit farther. Then farther. Until it starts to master you instead. Sure, one can resist the temptation. But it is harder than for common weapons or conventional magic it looks like, since at the heart of blood magic lies the fact that someone needs to suffer, even if this person is oneself.

 

Another to note is that, yes, the player character can use blood magic willy nilly and still be a saint. But in RPGs the PC is always a special snowflake who bends the universe's rules for the sake of a fun game. I don't think they are indicative of the real pull and temptation that blood magic offers.

 

All the above, of course, comes without the demonic influence that so often comes when blood magic is around. Because then things usually get even worse.

[The Baconer]

They did though.  The Warden mages slit the throats of their fellows to summon demons.  That's pretty much violent death right there. 

 

Not really the same thing. If the "More violence in death = more power" thing were true, I'd even call that downright inefficient. 

 

 

As far as more pain/violence/death = more powerful blood magic spells,  that would be tricky to implement during gameplay, but cutscenes could do that concept justice in the next game.    We are likely going to Tevinter after all.

 

Having that portrayed in gameplay wasn't really a concern of mine, but I would expect to be touched upon, elaborated on, or mentioned in any capacity in the material following WoT vol.1. Again, Last Flight would have had the most potential to explore this aspect of blood magic, but it gets ignored entirely, which in turn makes me wonder if Bioware is truly committed to this mechanic of pain and violence. 

[Aren]

 

Jowan uses it to save a life (at the willing cost of another); Avernus used it for much needed research into the Blight; Merrill restores an eluvian; Malcolm Hawke sealed away demons and Corypheus; Morrigan uses the Dark Ritual to save the Warden's life; and don't the Chantry use Blood Magic to track Rogue mages with phylacteries?

 

 

I find all these examples to be filled with your personal opinions,on my account i see all these examples in which blood magic was involved as inherently evil

 

-Jowan blood magic allow to enter the fade at the cost of the death of another person,his magic is empowered by the pain of Isolde and by her death and to me this  is an evil form of magic.

 

-Avernus did a great deal of impressive things but his experiments with blood magic are macabre and unethical to say the least.

It is stated into those codexes that the cavies of his experiment were alive when he operated into them with blood magic and caused their death and they were hardly consensual to this deadly and painful treatment.

 

-Merril is one of the few blood mages that used her own blood,still she did that only because she had no access to lyrium otherwise she would have never used blood magic.

By using blood magic she entered in contact with a pride demon that wanted her and Marethari and killed the latter.

 

-Malcolm Hawke was forced by those wardens to use demons and their power in order to seal Corypheus,eventually those demons would have been freed to do whatever they wish in the world and those were pride demons this means that there is always a cost to pay with blood magic.

 

-Morrigan/FLemeth dark ritual is to me a form of evil magic,it is empowered by blood that is necessary to purify the corrupted soul of the archdemon and by the taint which is necessary to attract it.

The soul of the archdemon jump due to this blood magic into an unwilling host that is used as a container against the will.

So yes save one warden at the cost of altering the mind of an innocent child and forced him to have nightmares due to the presence of that soul for the rest of his life until FLemeth removed it.

 

There is always a price to pay  with blood magic s and this price is often greater than the reward,that is way blood mages use others people as the price to pay which is basically what most of the people you have mentioned did (Jowan,Avernus,Morrigan).

[abisha]

 

I find all these examples to be filled with your personal opinions,on my account i see all these examples in which blood magic was involved as inherently evil

 

-Jowan blood magic allow to enter the fade at the cost of the death of another person,his magic is empowered by the pain of Isolde and by her death and to me this  is an evil form of magic.

 

-Avernus did a great deal of impressive things but his experiments with blood magic are macabre and unethical to say the least.

It is stated into those codexes that the cavies of his experiment were alive when he operated into them with blood magic and caused their death and they were hardly consensual to this deadly and painful treatment.

 

-Merril is one of the few blood mages that used her own blood,still she did that only because she had no access to lyrium otherwise she would have never used blood magic.

By using blood magic she entered in contact with a pride demon that wanted her and Marethari and killed the latter.

 

-Malcolm Hawke was forced by those wardens to use demons and their power in order to seal Corypheus,eventually those demons would have been freed to do whatever they wish in the world and those were pride demons this means that there is always a cost to pay with blood magic.

 

-Morrigan/FLemeth dark ritual is to me a form of evil magic,it is empowered by blood that is necessary to purify the corrupted soul of the archdemon and by the taint which is necessary to attract it.

The soul of the archdemon jump due to this blood magic into an unwilling host that is used as a container against the will.

So yes save one warden at the cost of altering the mind of an innocent child and forced him to have nightmares due to the presence of that soul for the rest of his life until FLemeth removed it.

 

you alwasy pay the price with blood magic,always.

 

 

yet in your logic Corypheus  sudden be possessed because he was trying to open the veil with lots of blood sacrifices *bloodmagic*

yet you do know demons and fade are not even remotely connected right?.

 

so how exactly can one become possessed in the first place with bloodmagic.... oh right because the writer says so.

[nightscrawl]

I don't know if David is talking about the PC, but I like the idea of being able to RP a character who slowly slides down that slippery slope into corruption, or doesn't, depending on your choices. It could make for a very interesting gaming experience.

 
He was responding to a specific question at a convention:
 

Q: And just a slight lore question: with Jowan, and Merrill, and Hawke, and the Warden being able to be a Blood Mage as well, it seems to me that to be a Blood Mage you don't necessarily have to be corrupt. Is that true, or am I just imagining it? Like it seems like you could be a good person, yet still be a Blood Mage.

So then he goes onto explain about the type of corruption and so forth.


Unfortunately, this is one of those times where lore and gameplay don't mesh very well. The blood magic spec in particular, even more so than the templar spec, is greatly entrenched in lore for the many examples of its use, and the prohibitions against it. A great many players complained about how ridiculous it was that one could take the blood magic spec in DA2 and it was hardly mentioned, if at all, often alongside the example of using it right in front of Cullen (or even in front of Meredith while fighting the Arishok!), who says nothing.

 

The problem is that in order to give the blood magic its rightful due -- I think this even as a non-blood magic using player -- it would likely be elevated in importance over all of the other specs and given more content in the story. While this does make sense, particularly if the next game is set in Tevinter, I don't know if the devs want to take that extra leap with the spec. I find it far more likely that there will be similar choices we got in DAI, and if blood magic is among them that it won't get more or less play than any of the others.

 

I could be wrong. We'll have to see.

[Aren]

yet in your logic Corypheus  sudden be possessed because he was trying to open the veil with lots of blood sacrifices *bloodmagic*

yet you do know demons and fade are not even remotely connected right?.

 

so how exactly can one become possessed in the first place with bloodmagic.... oh right because the writer says so.

If you are talking about his first attempt to reach the golden city he didn't opened the veil and he didn't create a breach,he used elven blood and a ritual that he learned from the old ogds to enter physically into the fade.

If you are referring to the blighted Corypheus the one of DAI and DA2 well suffice to say that he can't be possessed anymore since the taint is a repellent for demons.

[Qun00]

I must again repeat that blood magic itself is not adjectivally good nor evil. It is subjective. It depends entirely on the context in which it is used. Even that only determines the morality or immorality of the wielder. Blood magic is no more good or evil than a sword or bow. It all hinges on the how and why of it's use.

The why's of blood magic change, but it doesn't affect the how's. It is one thing when the harmful use is an unfortunate exception and another when it is the norm.

The hundreds of people that keep parroting the "it's a tool" argument want others to absolve blood magic based on the good minority, and that's just weird.

Human sacrifices/demonic deals/mind control are the most commonly employed methods and pursued advantages among blood mages. I also have already offered examples of how it is directly connected to demons in all its forms, but none have addressed it when I brought it up.

Then we have the idea of "willing participants", though I'm not sure where one would find anyone that crazy or selfless. Even in a time of crisis like a war and a hypothetical acceptance of blood magic, volunteers would be rare.

[Spectr61]

The why's of blood magic change, but it doesn't affect the how's. It is one thing when the harmful use is an unfortunate exception and another when it is the norm.
The hundreds of people that keep parroting the "it's a tool" argument want others to absolve blood magic based on the good minority, and that's just weird.
Human sacrifices/demonic deals/mind control are the most commonly employed methods and pursued advantages among blood mages. I also have already offered examples of how it is directly connected to demons in all its forms, but none have addressed it when I brought it up.
Then we have the idea of "willing participants", though I'm not sure where one would find anyone that crazy or selfless. Even in a time of crisis like a war and a hypothetical acceptance of blood magic, volunteers would be rare.

Ever play DA2 as a Blood Mage?

[Dancing_Dolphin]

He was responding to a specific question at a convention:


So then he goes onto explain about the type of corruption and so forth.
Unfortunately, this is one of those times where lore and gameplay don't mesh very well. The blood magic spec in particular, even more so than the templar spec, is greatly entrenched in lore for the many examples of its use, and the prohibitions against it. A great many players complained about how ridiculous it was that one could take the blood magic spec in DA2 and it was hardly mentioned, if at all, often alongside the example of using it right in front of Cullen (or even in front of Meredith while fighting the Arishok!), who says nothing.

The problem is that in order to give the blood magic its rightful due -- I think this even as a non-blood magic using player -- it would likely be elevated in importance over all of the other specs and given more content in the story. While this does make sense, particularly if the next game is set in Tevinter, I don't know if the devs want to take that extra leap with the spec. I find it far more likely that there will be similar choices we got in DAI, and if blood magic is among them that it won't get more or less play than any of the others.

I could be wrong. We'll have to see.

Well, blood magic is such an interesting subject and the devs have yet to explore it in a way that does it justice and Tevinter could certainly provide them with the opportunity.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Blood magic isn't inherently by any means. But is more inherently dangerous than any of the other schools of magic and shouldn't be used by anyone but the most iron-willed and temperate of individuals. Mind control and demon summoning especially should just be illegal practices, with blood magic only being used to empower normal spells.

[Aren]

Then we have the idea of "willing participants", though I'm not sure where one would find anyone that crazy or selfless. Even in a time of crisis like a war and a hypothetical acceptance of blood magic, volunteers would be rare.

Blood magic is mostly based on the using of blood of sentient and intelligent beings (elves,dwarf,qunari,humans) because it feed of their conscious pain.

I for once never noticed the use of animals as the resource for such magic because blood magic as i said is intrinsically tied to the conscious pain and no magister of the imperium or ancient elves used animals as source for blood magic because it would have not worked.

[Dai Grepher]

Blood magic is a dangerous practice, but it can be beneficial. It is similar to fire magic. It can be used to heat a house or to burn it down. But I do admit that blood magic is more dangerous and more prone to being abused. It can also have physical consequences on those who don't use it carefully, causing physical deformities.

 

But used correctly, it could be the cure to the taint, a counter to Mythal's compulsion, it might have healing properties, it might even have to do with survival in the Fade physically. There might also be different kinds of blood magic. Fact is, without blood magic, Dumat would still be destroying everything in sight.

[Il Divo]

^While true, that's also a bit misleading. If all Mages were using blood magic strictly to fuel the Grey Warden ranks, this wouldn't be a problem worth discussing. What we see with the Joining Ritual is that a very restrained application of Blood Magic has a high degree of utility in certain circumstances.

[Aren]

 Dumat would still be destroying everything in sight.

What you are referring to?The joining of the GW?

The GW joining is not in itself a form blood magic is just darkspawn blood used for the potency of the taint in order to create a GW.

[Medhia_Nox]

The thing I find the most hilarious about theory-crafting is all the crap people just make up as fact because that's how they want to feel about it.

 

My particular favorite is:  "Magic is natural and can be studied like science."

 

The dissertations on DA magic are particularly hilarious...

 

For fun, I love it, but people invariably start believing their special headcanon on what DA magic "is" and then get all uppity about defending it as if they're some DA mage. 

 

Blood magic may or may not be inherently evil (for something to be inherently evil there must be a absolute morality - and we simply cannot know if DA has that) - but it's absolutely the stupidest form of magic.

 

When Tevinter - the land where mages circle jerk to magic absurdities - says that blood magic is forbidden, and if you use it you have best do so in secret because it's shameful to have to rely on it, you know what you're doing is particularly imbecilic.

[GoldenGail3]

Ever play DA2 as a Blood Mage?

I have. It's the easiest way to die in DA2.

[Spectr61]

I have. It's the easiest way to die in DA2.

Here you go. Makes DA2 and absolute blast. Nightmare, friendly fire on.

Very good guide. Follow it, lots of fun, extremely powerful, and not a sacrifice nor demon in sight.

http://forum.bioware...ns-updated7111/

[GoldenGail3]

Here you go. Makes DA2 and absolute blast. Nightmare, friendly fire on.
Very good guide. Follow it, lots of fun, extremely powerful, and not a sacrifice nor demon in sight.http://forum.bioware...ns-updated7111/

I know - I've played a Blood Mage before. I've played it more then once, it sucks. Your health gets cut - and you die the moment the enemy decides to kill you. And I don't need this guide; I've beaten the game like.... Four times as a Mage Hawke. I love playing as a Mage Hawke but really; I like Battlemage and Spirt Healer more so that I wouldn't get a one hit KO each time I play as one, lol.

[Abyss108]

What you are referring to?The joining of the GW?

The GW joining is not in itself a form blood magic is just darkspawn blood used for the potency of the taint in order to create a GW.

 

David Gaider said it was a type of blood magic.

 

http://www.ladyinsan...terview-gaymerx

 

 

 

That is a...there's an amount of judgment call. Even I, as a creator, I could come out and say "Yes, blood magic is inherently evil" but what would that even mean? What is the nature of evil there? Are we talking about morally evil? Morally wrong? Are we talking about evil as far sort of like a corruptive influence as far as darkspawn? There is evil - there is blood magic as is defined by the chantry, which is more involved in the use of blood sacrifice and mind control. But blood magic really goes further than that as well. I mean if you really think of it, the use of phylacteries is a type of blood magic. The Joining is a type of blood magic. So, I think it's a situation where blood magic is something that is often used for evil, but ultimately, it is a tool. Yet, one must address the moral question of it. If you have something like blood magic that is easily used for evil and so commonly used for evil, it presents such a tempting route to evil purposes. Does that mean that it should not be regulated or controlled or probably disallowed entirely? Sort of - I think the topic is more in common with gun control than anything else.

 

So the lead writer supports that it is a tool! 

[nightscrawl]

^ The quote I posted earlier, also from DG, doesn't contradict that it is a tool. And neither do Fenris and Dorian, characters that he wrote. Both David Gaider himself, as well as those characters, say that the problem is the misuse, and that because it is so powerful it is tempting to misuse it.