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[Gervaise]

In the old Dalish legends there are two sets of gods, the Creators and the Forgotten Ones and Solas who seems to occupy the neutral ground between them.   He was meant to have shut away both groups.     When Solas talks of the evanuris does he just mean the Creators or the Forgotten Ones as well?

 

Gelduran is quoted in a codex in Jaws of Hakkon.   In it the being seems to have a similar view of the Creators as Solas in that it denies their divine nature and says you earn the right to rule over others through deeds.    It also says there is only the acted and the acted upon, just as Solas says he only believes in cause and effect.     It says that their pride will consume them (Solas means pride) and that afterwards it will claim power of its own, apart from them until it strikes in mastery.    Which makes me wonder, did the Forgotten Ones have some part in helping Solas create the Veil rather than simply being victims of it?   This codex is found in a sealed chamber beneath an old Tevinter Temple to Razikale, the goddess of mysteries.   Is it merely a coincidence that it is found there?

 

If they are the old gods who were imprisoned beneath the earth but by the Creators rather than the Maker, could they have first spoken to Solas in the Fade and given him the knowledge of how to imprison their enemies?   Or did he get his knowledge from the orb, which originally belonged to someone else?    Once the Creators were out of the way, their monuments destroyed and their subjects thrown into turmoil by their removal, while Solas had entered uthenera to recover, they then spoke to the fledgling human mages and gave them the knowledge to become pre-eminent in the world and destroy what was left of their enemies' empire.  

 

Alternatively, the codex in the Temple of Mythal tells of Andruil going into the Void to hunt the Forgotten Ones and spending time there causes her to go mad, so if they are not the old gods, who or what are they?

 

Then there is the reference to the strange elves in the Tirashan that seem to worship strange gods unlike those of the Dalish, yet in the time of the Dales there were cults of the Forgotten Ones.    Since the whole point in Dalish lore is that they have truly been forgotten, hence no knowing their names, where did the Dalish cultists get their knowledge?   

 

I'm wondering if this will be revealed in the next game.

 

 

[Reznore57]

I guess the forgotten ones were rebels  .

Remember Solas saying the Evanuris were general , kings then gods , I doubt everyone was happy everytime the Evanuris were getting more power ...hell even the Evanuris didn't get along with each others all the time .

Anyway I assume the Forgotten Ones were powerful mages just like the Evanuris .

My theory is Fen Harel used them against the Evanuris and then got rid of them , he says the Inquisitor is not the first one being used by him and then discarded.Also it seems Solas felt bad about some people he trapped somewhere , he hates the Evanuris and he wished eternal torment upon them so I think he  trapped the Forgotten Ones but this he feels bad about , and he might want to bring them back.They might be his Plan B to fight the Evanuris and recreate the old elven empire.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They appear to just be a collection of Elvhen who rebelled against the Evanuris because they wanted power for themselves. And they might have succeeded, given that legend records them as rivals to the Creators. 

 

I get the sense they are the Chaotic Evil opposition to the Evanuris' Lawful Evil rule.

[myahele]

Yeah, it seems as if the Forgotten Ones were rebels and shared the viewpoint that Evanuris are not gods. And legends say that he's allied with them.

 

Though I think somewhere along the line they became worse and worse to the point where they would have been a serious threat to Solas' peace plans.

 

Still, it seems as we're getting more info about the Forgotten Ones: There's a codex entry for Geldaurran in Jaws of Hakkon, Staff of Daern'thall

 

 

The Forgotten Ones belong to the ancient Elven pantheon, but their names were lost after the Great Betrayal. Their worship continued in the shadows, despite efforts to stamp it out in the old Dalishkingdom. This staff belonged to a priest of those gods, specifically Daern'thal.

 

 and then there's the Tirashan (also mentioned in ftp web game)elves who worship them and are mentioned to be "acting up" by the end of Inquisition

 

Seems as if "The Great Betrayal" was the start of it all. Could this be when Mythal was murdered by the Evanuris? Or was it older than that?

 

As for why/how they were forgotten, maybe the Evanuris casted a spell on the populace to make them forget about them? Spirits/demons can do it on a smaller scale ... surely they could do similar?

[Gervaise]

Who called it the "Great Betrayal"?    It could simply have been those followers of the Creators who regarded Fen'Harel as the Great Betrayer.   There were certainly memories of those in the old library who did not think well of the Dread Wolf, knowing he was responsible for their plight.

 

Of course Flemeth makes much about how Mythal was betrayed and the world was betrayed, but even she doesn't actually say by whom.   Did Abelas know?   It seems odd that the Creators were still honoured in Mythal's temple if they were responsible for her death and Abelas knew of it.   Yet he was adamant that Fen'Harel was not responsible, so how could he be sure?    Was he aware that Fen'Harel wasn't in the right place to be implicated or that he was bound to Mythal so it would be impossible for him to harm her without her consent?

 

If the majority of Dalish lore came from the surviving pro-Creator lobby that would account for the favourable account of their rule in their stories and their antagonism towards both the Forgotten Ones and Fen'Harel.   What puzzles me is how the worship of the Forgotten Ones continued in the shadows and yet we have never heard of them before now except as a vague reference in tales from the Dalish.   Were these worshippers simply referring to them as Forgotten Ones or did they remember their names?  

 

They are so many questions I would have like to have asked  both Abelas and Solas but was not allowed to.  

[Dai Grepher]

Sounds to me like they are just powerful elvhen mages like the evanuris, but instead of dwelling in Elvhen'nan, they dwelt in the Void, which could be the lower regions of the Fade.

 

I think they are those who chose the darker paths compared to the evanuris, and they planned to use the darkness to defeat the evanuris. They saw Solas as one of them for a time because he opposed the evanuris as well, but they also recognized that he didn't want to kill them, just stop them.

 

The Forbidden Ones were banished by the evanuris, and I think they plotted against the evanuris since that time as well. They seemed to be mainly Fade dwellers after their banishment, but they knew how to travel the Fade unaided.

 

I think the Forgotten Ones were able to survive physically in the Fade, and also in the part of the Fade where spiritual essence breaks down to become Fade energy. That's why Andruil had to craft armor out of the Void in order to exist there for prolonged periods, and this turned her toward evil.

 

I think the Forgotten Ones are called that for two reasons. They exist in the Void where things are broken down or forgotten, and their evil is something that the evanuris wanted the People to forget about along with everything else that goes there. It was said that when Andruil returned from the Void she began howling things meant to be forgotten, and she also brought plague and pestilence to her lands.

 

I think the Forgotten Ones are still in the Fade somewhere. It's possible that they entered the Black City after the Magisters corrupted it. Or maybe they are still down in the Void, biding their time, waiting.

[Gervaise]

This is what bothers me about Solas' plan to deal with the evanuris.  If that encompasses both the Creators and the Forgotten Ones then I can't see how he could deal with them on his own.    His best hope would be to set one group against the other.    May be that is his plan.   

 

I'm pretty sure the Forgotten Ones must have something to do with the Blight.   If Corypheus was speaking the truth and the Black city was already black when he got there, then perhaps the Forgotten Ones entered it before the Magisters got there.  

 

The Last Flight says that the magic the arch demon calls on has nothing to do with the Fade but comes from somewhere else.   The Void seems the mostly likely source.

 

It makes you think though; if the Creators were truly corrupted by power, yet many of their followers still regarded them as good, just how bad are the Forgotten Ones?

[Dai Grepher]

I think Solas is assuming that they will all be asleep in Uthenera in order to pass the time. Then when he tears down the Veil, they will either still be asleep or they will awake to find themselves far to weak to fight back against him. He will then hunt them all down. What I think he miscalculates is that they will be asleep. I'm sure some of them will be, like Ghilin'nan or Dirthamen or June, but Elgar'nan and Falon'Din may have stayed awake this whole time in their full power, ready for anything. I'm sure the Forgotten Ones are the same way.

 

I don't think the Forgotten Ones have anything to do with the Black City. Corypheus admits at the end that he walked the halls of the Golden City. And humans knew it was golden at some point. It is more likely that the Magisters corrupted the whole thing rather than darkness being locked away inside. Plus, the doors closed again. If the Forgotten Ones were locked away inside, then why didn't they escape at that point?

 

But the Void is in the Fade, as far as we know.

 

I thought about that. I think the Forgotten Ones were considered bad because the effects they had over the world was negative. They turned people to hate, or fear, they cursed the lands with plagues and suffering. It's likely the evanuris gave them their titles in hops that the people would forget about them and follow their "gods".

[myahele]

Forgotten One's bad reputation just might be another Evanuris propaganda against them? They might not be that great, but compared to the Evanuris they're better? Lesser of 2 evils if anything

[ArcaneEsper]

Forgotten One's bad reputation just might be another Evanuris propaganda against them? They might not be that great, but compared to the Evanuris they're better? Lesser of 2 evils if anything

Yeah I've wondered if that was the case too. Though if they weren't that bad, why would Solas imprison them as well? Unless Solas was looking to run things himself, going with the lesser of two evils seems like a better idea than locking away both parties.

[ModernAcademic]

Lucifer and his pantheon of Fallen Angels, elven style.

 

And the protagonist of DA 4 caught in the middle of a Holy war.

[Reznore57]

Forgotten One's bad reputation just might be another Evanuris propaganda against them? They might not be that great, but compared to the Evanuris they're better? Lesser of 2 evils if anything

 

That's what I tend to assume , most of it was propaganda .

There's little information about the Forgotten Ones but Geldauran (?) the one in the frostback basin had some serious magic going on , the Winter thingie (my memory is fuzzy about Jaws of Hakkon) but it's not evil or corrupted magic or the Blight and the basin isn't the void either.

I think the Solasan temple was also a Forgotten Ones temple , it's supposed to date back to the time of ancient elves but there's no statue of the Evanuris , no picture nothing.

[Gervaise]

I always thought the Temple of Solassan had something to do with Solas, may be some sort of shrine of his followers; it would be a bit odd if it was dedicated to some other god with that name.  

 

It is possible that the Forgotten Ones did have other names/attributes assigned to them before they fell out with the Creators.   Reading about the old gods in World of Thedas 1, it says that Andoral was variously seen as the god of slaves or the god of unity, whilst Zazikel is both the god of freedom and the god of chaos.    The scholars suggest that Fen'Harel could be both the god of trickery and the god of rebellion, so it is quite possible that the other gods could be viewed in a similar way.

 

For example, Solas says that the elves saw things in terms of good and evil and wanted chains of command.   Having rules and regulations makes for a stable society but can also be seen as restrictive and those in authority as dictators.    Having a totally free society without any laws would lead to chaos and the weaker members would be vulnerable to the whims of the strong.     Mythal represented law (justice) and protection and it is when she was murdered that their society fell into chaos.   

 

The Forgotten Ones were said to be responsible for fear, disease and suffering but the memories of the elves in the library showed that Solas' actions caused tremendous fear and suffering, whilst the Dalish legends state that it was human diseases that caused them to start to die.    So either this was another example of coincidental arrival of humans being associated with misfortune or there is a contradiction here with what the Forgotten Ones were said to be responsible for.    When Andruil hunted them in the Void it was the nature of that place that affected her, not the Forgotten Ones or so the codex led us to believe.

 

If the evanuris had been in uthenera all this time then presumably they wouldn't be suffering as Solas intended they should.    I think it is more a case that they have been trapped in some sort of in between world, similar to the Crossroads, with only each other for company and that by now they are likely insane, whatever they were before.

[Dai Grepher]

Yeah I've wondered if that was the case too. Though if they weren't that bad, why would Solas imprison them as well? Unless Solas was looking to run things himself, going with the lesser of two evils seems like a better idea than locking away both parties.

 

Maybe Solas forgot to imprison them?
 

[Dai Grepher]

I always thought the Temple of Solassan had something to do with Solas, may be some sort of shrine of his followers; it would be a bit odd if it was dedicated to some other god with that name.  

 

If the evanuris had been in uthenera all this time then presumably they wouldn't be suffering as Solas intended they should.    I think it is more a case that they have been trapped in some sort of in between world, similar to the Crossroads, with only each other for company and that by now they are likely insane, whatever they were before.

 

It may have. The magic sealed in the tombs react to the anchor. But so does the magic in Gelduran's claim. So maybe its just a case of elvhen magic being stored away for later use. What I find strange is that Solas is researching the shard on his table at Skyhold, but we never get to see why he was researching it or his connection to it. If you don't know that he's Fen'Harel, then it just seems he researching some ancient elven artifact because he's interested in ancient elven history, but knowing his secret it's obvious that he should already know about the shards.

 

Right. They would only suffer at first when realizing their were trapped and had no way of getting out. They would logically enter Uthenera in order to pass the time (unless they stay aware for this as well and also trapped where their bodies are), and they would eventually grow too weak to oppose Solas. But I doubt they were in the same place. More than likely they are all in their own "castle" or "world", which they had dominion over before the fall. I agree they're in an "in-between" world, but I think Uthenera is still possible for them.

[myahele]

In regards to Sera's organization, Solas mention how the more "unruly" members must be eliminated. 

 

I guess Solas just could not deal or trust with the Forgotten One's in the world without the Evanuris if things went right. Geldaurran's claim makes it clear that he believes in rulership, but unlike the Evanuris, he won't claim "godship"

 

In other words, even without the Evanuris, the Forgotten One's would end up repeating the cycle. They might not be as bad as them, but given time who knows? In his "Wisdom" Solas predicted the outcome and sought to get rid of 2 birds with 1 stone.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It's possible that the bad reputation of the Forgotten Ones is just the Evanuris' propaganda, but I kind of doubt they were any better than they were. 

[Aren]

I guess the forgotten ones were rebels  .

Remember Solas saying the Evanuris were general , kings then gods , I doubt everyone was happy everytime the Evanuris were getting more power ...hell even the Evanuris didn't get along with each others all the time .

Anyway I assume the Forgotten Ones were powerful mages just like the Evanuris .

My theory is Fen Harel used them against the Evanuris and then got rid of them , he says the Inquisitor is not the first one being used by him and then discarded.Also it seems Solas felt bad about some people he trapped somewhere , he hates the Evanuris and he wished eternal torment upon them so I think he  trapped the Forgotten Ones but this he feels bad about , and he might want to bring them back.They might be his Plan B to fight the Evanuris and recreate the old elven empire.

If your theory is correct then Solas isn't so stupid after all.

Anyway if those forgotten ones are also the old gods than this plan B of yours is not even possible since most of them are dead by now

[ArcaneEsper]

Maybe the Void messed up the Forgotten Ones like it is said to have done to Andruil?

Which might have inspired some of the ill will towards them, so when push came to shove and Solas had to get rid of the Evanuris, he imprisoned the Forgotten Ones too because of the weirdness they showed.

Idk, just spitballing here.

[Dai Grepher]

It sounded to me like the Forgotten Ones were able to survive in the Void without it affecting them negatively. They kept their wits and had resistance to whatever "darkness" was there. Andruil was inexperienced and naive. She also had no resistance, which is why she had to craft armor from the Void in order to hunt there. But even with that armor she still went mad trying.

[ModernAcademic]

It sounded to me like the Forgotten Ones were able to survive in the Void without it affecting them negatively. They kept their wits and had resistance to whatever "darkness" was there. Andruil was inexperienced and naive. She also had no resistance, which is why she had to craft armor from the Void in order to hunt there. But even with that armor she still went mad trying.

 

So she pulled a Meredith with that Void stuff, trying to craft equipment and fighting gear not knowing full well the consequences and it blew on her face, eh?

 

Rule number one of survival in a fantasy world: never use unknown powerful substance to craft your weapon and gear, no matter how tempting it might be and how Godlike you think you'll become. There's no telling whether it'll sever your limbs, try to take sudden control of you or make you start hearing voices in your head.

[ArcaneEsper]

Sorry posted more than once ;-;

[ArcaneEsper]

Sorry posted more than once ;-;

[ArcaneEsper]

It sounded to me like the Forgotten Ones were able to survive in the Void without it affecting them negatively. They kept their wits and had resistance to whatever "darkness" was there. Andruil was inexperienced and naive. She also had no resistance, which is why she had to craft armor from the Void in order to hunt there. But even with that armor she still went mad trying.

Sure, one can say that but I've never seen it being mentioned that they were immune to the effects of the Void just that they resided there. Unless I missed out on whichever codex says so. In which case I'd want to see it.

The only lore I've seen about the Forgotten Ones paints them as malevolent entities who can only bring chaos or something to that effect. Though this could always be propaganda, if they were that bad or really bad enough for Solas to imprison, the Void may have played some role in their madness.

Huh, I didn't know Andruil made the armour so she could hunt there. I thought she only did so because she wanted to imbue her armour with the power of the Void rather than protect herself from it.

Edit: posted accidentally before I was finished.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We still don't really know exactly what "The Abyss" or "The Void" even are.