430 réponses à ce sujet

[CardButton]

Oh? I thought it was just the hand and wrist! In any case I still want my devices

Nvm, its damned hard to see (and you only get to see it in the Red Jenny trespasser epilogue) but it does appear that the Elbow joint is still intact ... if only just barely (almost the entire forearm seems to be gone).   That means the missing arm is far less of a problem than even I thought and with the elbow still remaining a prosthetic of any kind (either simple, advanced or utilizing some sort of magic) will be infinity easier to create with the materials in the current setting of Thedas.    

[Nefla]

Nvm, its damned hard to see (and you only get to see it in the Red Jenny trespasser epilogue) but it does appear that the Elbow joint is still intact ... if only just barely (almost the entire forearm seems to be gone).   That means the missing arm is far less of a problem than even I thought and with the elbow still remaining a prosthetic of any kind (either simple, advanced or utilizing some sort of magic) will be infinity easier to create with the materials in the current setting of Thedas.    

Yay!

[In Exile]

I don't think an origin necessarily needs to be directly related to the main plot, it just connects the character to the main plot.

 

That's splitting hairs. Your background has to be a hook to the part of the plot. In DA:O, the Origin often gave you reasons to actively hate Duncan and wanted to escape from the GWs at the first opportunity, not stick with them. And then Ostagar was a terrible establishing moment, because it doesn't at all follow from it that you'd stick around in Ferelden even if you were a gung-ho GW. 

[Nefla]

That's splitting hairs. Your background has to be a hook to the part of the plot. In DA:O, the Origin often gave you reasons to actively hate Duncan and wanted to escape from the GWs at the first opportunity, not stick with them. And then Ostagar was a terrible establishing moment, because it doesn't at all follow from it that you'd stick around in Ferelden even if you were a gung-ho GW. 

Maybe so, but the thing I liked about the Origins is that they made me feel like I was part of that world and culture and they showed me a piece of everyday life. I didn't feel like some random being that just spawned out of the air. I think they could definitely connect an origin to the main story better but still give you that sense of belonging.

[Sah291]

That's splitting hairs. Your background has to be a hook to the part of the plot. In DA:O, the Origin often gave you reasons to actively hate Duncan and wanted to escape from the GWs at the first opportunity, not stick with them. And then Ostagar was a terrible establishing moment, because it doesn't at all follow from it that you'd stick around in Ferelden even if you were a gung-ho GW.

I think the issue with DAI was that people wanted to see the Conclave. I know I was hoping we would get a little more of a flashback scene when we regained our memories in the fade. Or at least have a follow up dialogue where you could express your feelings about it and why you were at the Conclave.

You get a bit of that with an NPC asking how you felt about finding out you weren't really saved by Andraste herself... but I guess it didn't quite go far enough for me. You never really get a chance to express your character's feelings about the Conclave itself and what you had hoped would come of it, or who sent you there and why.

It gave me an odd feeling, like okay, maybe this character actually lost a lot more than just their memories of what happened leading up to the explosion. And I sort of headcanon it that way.

[Heimdall]

I'm generally against the In Medias Res style of storytelling for an RPG.

I think it's important for the player to have a brief period before everything falls apart to get a sense of their character, which helps in figuring out how that character responds to crisis. The Origins provided this (Regardless of other failings) and it was something I found lacking in the last two games. I wanted a Conclave section that would expand upon the situation and my character's motivation. I wanted a Lothering section for Hawke.

[AresKeith]

I'm generally against the In Medias Res style of storytelling for an RPG.

I think it's important for the player to have a brief period before everything falls apart to get a sense of their character, which helps in figuring out how that character responds to crisis. The Origins provided this (Regardless of other failings) and it was something I found lacking in the last two games. I wanted a Conclave section that would expand upon the situation and my character's motivation. I wanted a Lothering section for Hawke.

Yeah, I personally think a playable Conclave section and keeping the mystery of the Mark could've worked

[In Exile]

Maybe so, but the thing I liked about the Origins is that they made me feel like I was part of that world and culture and they showed me a piece of everyday life. I didn't feel like some random being that just spawned out of the air. I think they could definitely connect an origin to the main story better but still give you that sense of belonging.

 

Sure, but DA:I isn't different in that regard. You are as connected to the world as you are in DA:O, and as you were in ME1. Actually playing through an Origin has nothing to do with how connected the protagonist is to the setting. The contrast here is BG1, and then again BG2. 

 

I think the issue with DAI was that people wanted to see the Conclave. I know I was hoping we would get a little more of a flashback scene when we regained our memories in the fade. Or at least have a follow up dialogue where you could express your feelings about it and why you were at the Conclave.

You get a bit of that with an NPC asking how you felt about finding out you weren't really saved by Andraste herself... but I guess it didn't quite go far enough for me. You never really get a chance to express your character's feelings about the Conclave itself and what you had hoped would come of it, or who sent you there and why.

It gave me an odd feeling, like okay, maybe this character actually lost a lot more than just their memories of what happened leading up to the explosion. And I sort of headcanon it that way.

 

We can debate the merits of how the narrative started; but that wouldn't be an Origin, either. 

[In Exile]

I'm generally against the In Medias Res style of storytelling for an RPG.

I think it's important for the player to have a brief period before everything falls apart to get a sense of their character, which helps in figuring out how that character responds to crisis. The Origins provided this (Regardless of other failings) and it was something I found lacking in the last two games. I wanted a Conclave section that would expand upon the situation and my character's motivation. I wanted a Lothering section for Hawke.

I disagree. I think In Medias Res is the best way to start off an RPG. Bioware's problem isn't using the method at all - it's that they completely suck at using it. When well-done - and I think the best example this year is SW Force Awakens - you can have a powerful and dramatic moment that introduces the premise of the setting and gets the player involved and committed to the action.

 

The problem is that Bioware loves introducing absolutely nothing of consequence to their narrative in the opening. 

 

I don't think it's possible to get a sense of your character before you're exposed to the setting and the plot. DA:O needs you to be a Grey Warden wholly dedicated to saving Ferelden by being in it. The Origins not only don't give you this motivation, but give you a plethora of reasons to have every motivation but the most central one to make the plot work. 

 

The most essential part of DA:O is that - notwithstanding Duncan dying and Ostagar - you identify with your role as Grey Warden, you actively want to continue in it, and you will publicly announce yourself as such. But your Origin ties you to a very different narrative and conflict and gives you every reason to want to dessert, and you never have a chance to connect to the role or mission of the GWs. 

 

DA:O is a complete failure when it comes to actually establishing the rules of the game. 

[CardButton]

Sure, but DA:I isn't different in that regard. You are as connected to the world as you are in DA:O, and as you were in ME1. Actually playing through an Origin has nothing to do with how connected the protagonist is to the setting. The contrast here is BG1, and then again BG2. 

 

 

We can debate the merits of how the narrative started; but that wouldn't be an Origin, either. 

Yeah I'll agree, while the Origin stories were useful for the narrative (especially with a Silent Protagonist) they were pretty  meaningless once DA:O got onto the main story.  The only real way to improve on the Origin story system is to restrict what we could choose from to what few Origins would fit a particular setting and go for a functional Insider perspective on whatever society we happen to playing in and actually have those few origins provided have bigger ramifications in the game.  To do that though they would need a different outlet for important setting exposition (which Bioware is extremely fond of) or risk creating another Dalish Temple of Mythal fiasco. 

 

There are a number of ways that they could go about doing so: some sort of narration device, a secondary protagonist (like the Inquisitor) who shares game time relatively equally, but approaches that same setting as an outsider so they are an outlet for that information ... Whatever they choose if they were to do it successfully then that would make Origin stories far more relevant to the plot (at least compared to anything Bioware has ever had in the past). 

[Heimdall]

I disagree. I think In Medias Res is the best way to start off an RPG. Bioware's problem isn't using the method at all - it's that they completely suck at using it. When well-done - and I think the best example this year is SW Force Awakens - you can have a powerful and dramatic moment that introduces the premise of the setting and gets the player involved and committed to the action.

The problem is that Bioware loves introducing absolutely nothing of consequence to their narrative in the opening.

I don't think it's possible to get a sense of your character before you're exposed to the setting and the plot. DA:O needs you to be a Grey Warden wholly dedicated to saving Ferelden by being in it. The Origins not only don't give you this motivation, but give you a plethora of reasons to have every motivation but the most central one to make the plot work.

The most essential part of DA:O is that - notwithstanding Duncan dying and Ostagar - you identify with your role as Grey Warden, you actively want to continue in it, and you will publicly announce yourself as such. But your Origin ties you to a very different narrative and conflict and gives you every reason to want to dessert, and you never have a chance to connect to the role or mission of the GWs.

DA:O is a complete failure when it comes to actually establishing the rules of the game.

I don't mean they should avoid the setting and plot in the start, I mean that I think they should introduce the setting before introducing the crisis point. I like to get a handle on my character's identity before I decide what they would do in a crisis.

The Origins have serious problems when it comes to the wider narrative, but what I enjoyed about them was the introduction to the setting they provided, allowing the player to have a sense of character identity beyond the grey warden identity (The actual identities they encouraged were a detriment to the main plot making sense, I agree). You don't get that at the start of inquisition, it's takes time and effort to develop a sense of your character's identity beyond that of Herald or Inquisitor.

[Abyss108]

Origins were useful in DA:O because we didn't know what a "Dalish Elf" or "Casteless Dwarf" was exactly. We needed that background. 

 

I'll take in-media-res anyday over walking around talking to people about lore I learnt 2 games ago any day. I learn how my character will react to a situation by putting them in that situation.

 

(And no, I don't care about new players, the same way I don't care about anyone who starts reading from the third book in a series and complains they don't know what's going on)

[Heimdall]

Origins were useful in DA:O because we didn't know what a "Dalish Elf" or "Casteless Dwarf" was exactly. We needed that background.

I'll take in-media-res anyday over walking around talking to people about lore I learnt 2 games ago any day. I learn how my character will react to a situation by putting them in that situation.

(And no, I don't care about new players, the same way I don't care about anyone who starts reading from the third book in a series and complains they don't know what's going on)

I'm not even thinking about new players, the Conclave could have been used to expand on the lore of Mage-Templar war up to that point and why exactly our background faction was even there.

And for those that aren't new, unless they were following the game beforehand and already knew about the explosion, they wouldn't know what was going on until Cassandra's very stilted exposition after leading the Inquisitor outside.

[Abyss108]

I'm not even thinking about new players, the Conclave could have been used to expand on the lore of Mage-Templar war up to that point and why exactly our background faction was even there.

And for those that aren't new, unless they were following the game beforehand and already knew about the explosion, they wouldn't know what was going on until Cassandra's very stilted exposition after leading the Inquisitor outside.

 

You're not supposed to know what's going on, you have amnesia.

[AresKeith]

You're not supposed to know what's going on, you have amnesia.

You only have amnesia from the Divine part to the Fade, the Conclave up to that point could've still been playable if done right

[Abyss108]

You only have amnesia from the Divine part to the Fade, the Conclave up to that point could've still been playable if done right

 

Nothing happened before that. It would be a bunch of talking to people you aren't supposed to care about, and doing some minor quest for someone who will immediately die. I don't want to play that, I want to start playing at the actually important part.

[Heimdall]

You're not supposed to know what's going on, you have amnesia.

You're still supposed to know about the war and the Conclave.

Nothing happened before that. It would be a bunch of talking to people you aren't supposed to care about, and doing some minor quest for someone who will immediately die. I don't want to play that, I want to start playing at the actually important part.

One could argue that actually knowing character's that died in the explosion would give the event more impact.

[AresKeith]

You're still supposed to know about the war and the Conclave.One could argue that actually knowing character's that died in the explosion would give the event more impact.

The temporary "friend" companion from Origins come to mind lol

[Abyss108]

You're still supposed to know about the war and the Conclave.One could argue that actually knowing character's that died in the explosion would give the event more impact.

 

Remember how much people complained about ME3 and people on the Citadel dieing, making everything they did pointless?

 

Everything you need to know is communicated in the game. I didn't follow the game pre-release and I had no issues understanding what was going on.

[Smudjygirl]

.One could argue that actually knowing character's that died in the explosion would give the event more impact.

 

And a chance to explore relationships mentioned to the Inquisitor. From the Mage i remember Viv talking about her mentor (who died when the circles rebelled) and a Templar you can be infatuated with.

 

I loved Tamlen from Origins and i knew him for like an hour, but could see that my Warden was either his best friend, rival or crush. Small bits like that help with immersion.

 

I don't think Origins will work quite like they did in Origins, but it would be nice to get to know the characters. If not before the game starts then during. I wanted to visit my Clan with my Dalish Inquisitor, and i think that would have been a nice little RP gem.

[AresKeith]

Remember how much people complained about ME3 and people on the Citadel dieing, making everything they did pointless?

Everything you need to know is communicated in the game. I didn't follow the game pre-release and I had no issues understanding what was going on.

That's not really a good comparison at all.

[Abyss108]

That's not really a good comparison at all.

 

Yes, it is. In both cases, you get to talk to/do quests for a bunch of minor characters, then they die, making the choices you made pointless.

[AresKeith]

Yes, it is. In both cases, you get to talk to/do quests for a bunch of minor characters, then they die, making the choices you made pointless.

Did people complain when Origins did it with the origin stories and Osteger?

[Heimdall]

Yes, it is. In both cases, you get to talk to/do quests for a bunch of minor characters, then they die, making the choices you made pointless.

The Citadel was a recurring hub throughout the game. We're talking about a ten-thirty minute segment at the start. Not the same.

[Abyss108]

Did people complain when Origins did it with the origin stories and Osteger?

 

In most of the Origins, everyone you interact with doesn't die, so no, it doesn't do this. In the one case they do, its the worst opening, but at least they are characters you are supposed to care about. What reason would a Dalish spy have to care about people in the conclave? They should be keeping their head down. Maybe a human might know someone.

 

The Citadel was a recurring hub throughout the game. We're talking about a ten-thirty minute segment at the start. Not the same.

 

No, people specifically complained that doing minor quests were pointless if said characters always die.