134 réponses à ce sujet

[darlarosa]

I saw a article on another site and I was deeply troubled, but mostly curious about something.

 

The author was basically going into all this detail about how somehow "SJWs"(whoever they are) forced bioware to include black people in this "dark european setting". It was long and the author(supposedly not white, but I has suspicions about that) argued that was the case because Bioware artists, writers, and devs used different cultures in Europe and the Ottoman empire for the basis of the different societies in Dragon Age: Origins.

 

 

So my question is this...did people legitimately believe this was an all white European ethnic setting?

 

I ask because...you can make black, and asian, and etc. looking Grey Wardens. My warden Darla is a  black mage. All my characters are black women(because all of my characters are OG nubian queens, mad respect). And I know this author was legitimately believing his argument was sound, and that in Inquisition making Vivian and other characters black was a "betrayal" of artistic integrity. However, there are black background characters, elves even with the darkest skin tone in the game and red hair. I am a black woman, but I'm asking as a creator of stories and as just a human being. Did people just ignore those background characters? Did they ignore Ella and the Bone Pitt guy in Dragon age II? It's absolutely fascinating to me.

 

Usually in my stories I give a "explanation" in fantasy worlds. Closer to the equator you find darker skin, but people move around and trade and engage in romantic relationships. Bioware has no obligation to do so, and even if they did described clans or tribes or kingdoms consisting of primarily dark people I suspect the author and others might regard it as revisionary(Yes made up word I take that right).

 

It's just very strange to hear that argument and see the comments, not racist, but 100% agreeing that A) a world of only white Europeans exist...which I'm not shocked by because people in this world sincerely believe black people didn't exist until slavery, which is insane B )that before Inquisition and Vivian the world was entirely and only white European, and meant to be only European majority groups. My conclusion is that these same players just legitimately did not pay attention to the world, or saw every dark skinnned character as being from Rivain or Antiva etc. Which I think is still no excuse because I can make a Cousland almost as dark and luscious as Lupita N'yongo, so even then it falls a bit...flat.

[straykat]

I have no problem with it, but the backgrounds they give for my humans aren't conducive to it. I'll make dark elves and dwarves though.

 

I'm part Asian btw. I'd prefer if they actually had Asian continents to make this work. I don't care to just force myself into it for outside reasons. I still see the setting as mostly European myself. For now. It's up to the writers to change that. Not me.

[slimgrin]

SJWs love to stir the pot. It's absolutely fascinating to me. 

[darlarosa]

I have no problem with it, but the backgrounds they give for my humans aren't conducive to it. I'll make pretty dark elves and dwarves though.

 

I'm part Asian btw. I'd prefer if they actually had Asian continents to make this work. I don't care to just force myself into it for outside reasons. I still see the setting as mostly European myself. For now. It's up to the writers to change that. Not me.

But isn't that still a, and please take no offense to this I just can't think of a better word, erranous way of thinking? Why should Bioware have to explain it? Considering the implied magical origins of different species expecting real world racial/ethnic development is a bit pointless isn't it? Further...the culture is European and most characters are European, but the DA team included people of color from Roma(rivain) to blacks (througout the world). Should that just be ignored because they haven't shown a Jade Empire style kingdom or a Wakanda? Isn't that just picking and choosing arbitrarily?

[Andraste_Reborn]

I think it was easier for people to ignore the fact that not everyone in Dragon Age is white during the first two games because the old engine was absolutely terrible at rendering darker skin tones. If you go to the darkest tone on the slider, your character tends to end up looking purple.

 

Nevertheless, there were still characters around who were clearly not white - most notably Duncan and Isabela, but also various background NPCs. Fortunately the new engine is much better at a wide variety of skin tones. For some reason this bothers some people?

[darlarosa]

SJWs love to stir the pot. It's absolutely fascinating to me. 

About what?

I'm legtimately curious.

Also what is a SJW people throw the term around without any real meaning. I ask a question and present an arguement for why I ask and why I feel as I do...and I'm an "SJW". Me saying how much I like Vivienne and enjoy having a black character makes me a SJW? Pooping on a toilet makes me a SJW? Does that term have any meaning other than "Shut up I don't like you/what you think?". Isn't that term just an excuse to try and shut people up while feeling like you are superior and somehow saving the world from...what? A black woman with questions? A black woman wanting some outside perspective?

 

What? What is your goal here to troll? Maybe? If so you're doing a very weak job kid.

[straykat]

But isn't that still a, and please take no offense to this I just can't think of a better word, erranous way of thinking? Why should Bioware have to explain it? Considering the implied magical origins of different species expecting real world racial/ethnic development is a bit pointless isn't it? Further...the culture is European and most characters are European, but the DA team included people of color from Roma(rivain) to blacks (througout the world). Should that just be ignored because they haven't shown a Jade Empire style kingdom or a Wakanda? Isn't that just picking and choosing arbitrarily?

 

There aren't magical origins for these humans at least. They are nations.. most inspired by actual ones. Ferelden borrows a lot of Brit templates. Orlais is France obviously. Antiva is Venice/Italy. Etc..

 

I want them to put the same thought into other cultures too. That's all I'm saying. If not, I'm fine just roleplaying a Ferelden. After all, it's a roleplaying game.. I'm not exactly here to play myself.

[darlarosa]

I think it was easier for people to ignore the fact that not everyone in Dragon Age is white during the first two games because the old engine was absolutely terrible at rendering darker skin tones. If you go to the darkest tone on the slider, your character tends to end up looking purple.

 

Nevertheless, there were still characters around who were clearly not white - most notably Duncan and Isabela, but also various background NPCs. Fortunately the new engine is much better at a wide variety of skin tones. For some reason this bothers some people?

AND this is my point.

 

I'm legitmately confused by it. Because I know it's not just a matter of racism in and of itself, but I am very confused as to whether people just wrote off being able to make a black, asian, etc. warden and npcs? If that's the case I'm just intrigued as to the reason.

 

Or if like straycat indicated it's a matter of not fully buying why these ethnicity's are in a European world, or more so the part of Thedas we have seen thus far.

[straykat]

Oh.. well..

 

I think Gaider was first just tasked with making something like D&D. They wanted to get away from the license, but still wanted to make traditional fantasy. Maybe he just meant to limit it to this continent for now.

 

Because there's definitely more to the world.. the qunari came from somewhere else apparently. And there are other dwarves far to the west, off the map.

 

As for darkskinned, there are the Chasind. I suppose most of them are south of Ferelden.. but maybe there's a ton of more things like this we haven't seen.. way past the Korcari wilds.

[darlarosa]

There aren't magical origins for these humans at least. They are nations.. most inspired by actual ones. Ferelden borrows a lot of Brit templates. Orlais is France obviously. Antiva is Venice/Italy. Etc..

 

I want them to put the same thought into other cultures too. That's all I'm saying. If not, I'm fine just roleplaying a Ferelden. After all, it's a roleplaying game.. I'm not exactly here to play myself.

I understand. I guess as a writer my question is if these cultures weren't predominately white ones in the real world would there be as much of an issue?   I would argue the lore...because you are jumping the gun to say "there aren't magical origins" for humans. The Maker is said to have made and then abandoned man, if I remember the chant correctly. It seems like the origins and nature of human magic is indicated to be a varied mystery. 

 

I do think Bioware puts a lot of thought into their cultures, and more and more they're looking less like real world analogues. However the first game was a lot more European, a mix of Byzantium and England in culture and style, and even then a lot of it was very "traditional like you said. I remember Gaider was describing how they have been expanding cultures and ideas more and more, particularly with Quanari.

 

And what's fascinating about Thedas is there's kind of a pre-columbus thing going on. Because like you said there is mention of the Quanari coming from beyond their known homeland, and really a ton of the world isn't explored, I can't wait to see more of the dwarves for instance.

[straykat]

I understand. I guess as a writer my question is if these cultures weren't predominately white ones in the real world would there be as much of an issue?   I would argue the lore...because you are jumping the gun to say "there aren't magical origins" for humans. The Maker is said to have made and then abandoned man, if I remember the chant correctly. It seems like the origins and nature of human magic is indicated to be a varied mystery. 

 

I do think Bioware puts a lot of thought into their cultures, and more and more they're looking less like real world analogues. However the first game was a lot more European, a mix of Byzantium and England in culture and style, and even then a lot of it was very "traditional like you said. I remember Gaider was describing how they have been expanding cultures and ideas more and more, particularly with Quanari.

 

And what's fascinating about Thedas is there's kind of a pre-columbus thing going on. Because like you said there is mention of the Quanari coming from beyond their known homeland, and really a ton of the world isn't explored, I can't wait to see more of the dwarves for instance.

 

I mean these nations didn't develop magically. I don't know about the species. It's pretty much the same as our own world. No one knows our true origins either.. but the origins of cultures and nations is rather mundane.

[Ashagar]

The strangest thingx people come up with, Thadas is its world southern hemisphere and there is a entire race of dark skinned people in the form of the Rivani in the north along with the tevinter who along with the navarrians seem to have a rather ancient Mediterranean look to them. How are they forcing anything especially as the chantry is known for moving mages around to different countries from their country of origin, Anders was orginally from the Anderfells and Amell was originally from a noble family in Kirkwall for instance.

[darlarosa]

I mean these nations didn't develop magically. I don't know about the species. It's pretty much the same as our own world. No one knows our true origins either.. but the origins of cultures and nations is rather mundane.

Ah what I meant is the notion of where people come from may be magical. We were talking about differing things. Or more so interpreting them differently. 

Modifié par darlarosa, 19 janvier 2016 - 03:29 .

[darlarosa]

The strangest thingx people come up with, Thadas is its world southern hemisphere and there is a entire race of dark skinned people in the form of the Rivani in the north along with the tevinter who along with the navarrians seem to have a rather ancient Mediterranean look to them. How are they forcing anything especially as the chantry is known for moving mages around to different countries from their country of origin, Anders was orginally from the Anderfells and Amell was originally from a noble family in Kirkwall for instance.

 I agree it is very strange. and Thedas is the formal name of the world, we have not seen all of Thedas yet. Just pointing that out.

 

And also the Rivani aren't a problem for a lot of people, as I understand, because they still seem them as...well say certain ethnic groups in europe like the Roma or Aremenians, who in much of the west get coded(seen) as white.  They're like extra dark Italians and Portugese or something. Still seen as European I guess. I don't know I'm a bit confused by it.

[straykat]

Ah what I meant is the notion of where people come from may be magical. We were talking about differing things. Or more so interpreting them differently. 

 

They could have been, yeah. I think it's inspired by Christianity.. The Maker got bored with the static world of spirits and wanted mortals to be more creative. Whether it's valid or not, I don't know. We'll probably never get an answer.

[Battlebloodmage]

You can never make an Asian protagonist in Bioware games. It's pretty euro-centric when it comes to character customization. 

[straykat]

You can never make an Asian protagonist in Bioware games. It's pretty euro-centric when it comes to character customization. 

 

Well, there was Jade Empire.

 

Granted, the CC sucked. There wasn't anything to it

[darlarosa]

You can never make an Asian protagonist in Bioware games. It's pretty euro-centric when it comes to character customization. 

 Not perfectly. But once again that depends on what you mean by "asian". So many ethnic groups.

[Battlebloodmage]

 Not perfectly. But once again that depends on what you mean by "asian". So many ethnic groups.

East Asians, South East Asians. Not even perfectly. They have never intended it, they don't even bother to make a preset. There are a lot of stuffs lacking. The Asian skull structure is a lot toner and often less edges, their nose shape and eye shape are lacking, the Asian lips can be a bit fuller than the Caucasian preset. At best, you could make a somewhat mixed person, but no Asian. 

[GoldenGail3]

I agree it is very strange. and Thedas is the formal name of the world, we have not seen all of Thedas yet. Just pointing that out.
 
And also the Rivani aren't a problem for a lot of people, as I understand, because they still seem them as...well say certain ethnic groups in europe like the Roma or Aremenians, who in much of the west get coded(seen) as white.  They're like extra dark Italians and Portugese or something. Still seen as European I guess. I don't know I'm a bit confused by it.

Becuase we're in Ferelden and Orlais currently. Although; I'm fairly sure Orlais is France, while Ferelden is England. And their both cold coutries so it make since their white skinned, and we haven't explored Riviani yet, so there's that.

[Battlebloodmage]

Well, there was Jade Empire.

 

Granted, the CC sucked. There wasn't anything to it

Well, it's an game set in Asia. I'm more talking about ME and DA. Any recent games don't take into account Asian features within the CC. All I'm asking for is a preset for Asian. At least, it's easier to modify from there instead of twitching it from a European pre-set and try to change it around. It takes a lot of efforts with a very unsatisfying result. 

[GoldenGail3]

Well, it's an game set in Asia. I'm more talking about ME and DA. Any recent games don't take into account Asian features within the CC. All I'm asking for is a preset for Asian. At least, it's easier to modify from there instead of twitching it from a European pre-set and try to change it around. It takes a lot of efforts with a very unsatisfying result.

Maybe we'll go be to Thedas's China some day? That would be awesome to explore...

[darlarosa]

Becuase we're in Ferelden and Orlais currently. Although; I'm fairly sure Orlais is France, while Ferelden is England. And their both cold coutries so it make since their white skinned, and we haven't explored Riviani yet, so there's that.

Yeah I understand that, but that's not what people are saying. They're not saying "It should be majority white". They're saying that adding people of color at all is the problem. As though, for example, Rome had no clue about Egypt or Ethiopians existing and brown people, yellow people, etc. with differing features don't migrate? That's kind of how I take it when the realities is all people travel and establish roots, always have. And in terms of the game...my Hawke family is black, I can make black characters...Vivian is a real character. That's the thing  and I think Orlais in particular reflects that as does Kirkwall because they're major cities so ya know seeing someone like Vivian isn't the most common everywhere, but not absolutely shocking in the sense that suddenly these people existed. In the very first game it's established that not everyone is white in tone or possess Euro-centric features...as someone pointed out the skin textures were very much of their time, so the dark skin lighting is poor. Isabela, Zevren, Fenris...they travel. Not to mention mages being transported over Ferelden. And it sounds like people think "Well...we're in Europe so?" But even in Europe there have been non-whites in history. It just sounds like a lot of people saying "Well we're in Ferelden and everyone should be white," and in the specific instance I'm talking about "that it was white before Inquisition."

 

When that is not nor has ever been the case in the game.

 

 

The game in terms of appearence choices for us the players, and in the randos walking around allows for, as an example me to create Darla, a black elven mage. So granted. That's always been the case and the attitude I see people have to run circles around that fact or flat out ignore it is a way of thinking I don't fully understand beyond "There isn't much of an explanation as to where those traits congregate in the population in the nations we have explored, so it is odd when compared to, for example, the real world."

 

Not saying you think that way btw. Just explaining what I see and hear that confuses me.

 

East Asians, South East Asians. Not even perfectly. They have never intended it, they don't even bother to make a preset. There are a lot of stuffs lacking. The Asian skull structure is a lot toner and often less edges, their nose shape and eye shape are lacking, the Asian lips can be a bit fuller than the Caucasian preset. At best, you could make a somewhat mixed person, but no Asian. 

Which is an issue that does need to be addressed. Honestly the character designs do need expansion and improvement. Hopefully technology and determination will make it easier and common over time.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Me personally. I think they made the elves based on black people not Jews. They have ghettos, women getting raped, slavery, and killing them like dogs. BioWare ain't fooling nobody.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Me personally. I think they made the elves based on black people not Jews. They have ghettos, women getting raped, slavery, and killing them like dogs. BioWare ain't fooling nobody.

You know that has happened to more people than just black people, including Jewish people right?