134 ответов в этой теме

[Asdrubael Vect]

ok let be honest and realistic...even dark magic fantasy world have a laws and reasons as biology

 

1)Character creation especially in DA2 allow you to create this

 

http://static.giantb...24100-vEBa1.jpg

 

and other types of unreal humanoid looking pc, so do not even consider this as something what makes something legit=)

 

So Cousland and Educans and Tabris and etc childrens who you can play as Warden cant have "purple hairs". even if character creation and mods allow you to have them=)

 

2)about ethnic things...about skin pigmentation and hairs, noses, lips, eyes feature and facial stuff of different Thedas nations

 

in DA all Thedas non-humans(qunari and elfs) and humans who are dark skinned(like Isabella) and especially "blacks types"(like Vivienne who are pure rivain by the lore) are from and the north of the Thedas map, riivain and donarks jungles and such warm lands what are close to Thedas equator....so the warmer location on the Thedas map, the more darkskinned peoples of humans. kossiths races and taned elfs

 

as someone talk about "asian types"(they are hard to notice cos all non-darkskinned and even some darkskinned humans have some asian features so they kinda mixed) humans they are exist(we since DAO see some from Orlais and chasinds) but elfs and kossith have more those features than humans and dwarfs.

 

3)elfs and dwarfs(only those who lived outside deep roads for a long time) can be only dark-tan skinned  like isabella and not like Vivienne what is imposible(we not have any evidence about different elves from non elvennan) for elves, and almost(cos even if is rare they could have some relationships with humans) for dwarves

[Asdrubael Vect]

 They have ghettos, women getting raped, slavery, and killing them like dogs. BioWare ain't fooling nobody.

Ancient and Medieval times things with enslaved and conquered nations, not just jews and sure not as with africans was

[GoldenGail3]

Yeah I understand that, but that's not what people are saying. They're not saying "It should be majority white". They're saying that adding people of color at all is the problem. As though, for example, Rome had no clue about Egypt or Ethiopians existing and brown people, yellow people, etc. with differing features don't migrate? That's kind of how I take it when the realities is all people travel and establish roots, always have. And in terms of the game...my Hawke family is black, I can make black characters...Vivian is a real character. That's the thing  and I think Orlais in particular reflects that as does Kirkwall because they're major cities so ya know seeing someone like Vivian isn't the most common everywhere, but not absolutely shocking in the sense that suddenly these people existed. In the very first game it's established that not everyone is white in tone or possess Euro-centric features...as someone pointed out the skin textures were very much of their time, so the dark skin lighting is poor. Isabela, Zevren, Fenris...they travel. Not to mention mages being transported over Ferelden. And it sounds like people think "Well...we're in Europe so?" But even in Europe there have been non-whites in history. It just sounds like a lot of people saying "Well we're in Ferelden and everyone should be white," and in the specific instance I'm talking about "that it was white before Inquisition."
 
When that is not nor has ever been the case in the game.
 
The game in terms of appearence choices for us the players, and in the randos walking around allows for, as an example me to create Darla, a black elven mage. So granted. That's always been the case and the attitude I see people have to run circles around that fact or flat out ignore it is a way of thinking I don't fully understand beyond "There isn't much of an explanation as to where those traits congregate in the population in the nations we have explored, so it is odd when compared to, for example, the real world."
 

Maybe you'll feel less confused in DA4? They'll be allot less white people as its a hotter climate.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

You know that has happened to more people than just black people, including Jewish people right?

True but out of every one in the world, black people suffer the most ever since Egypt falls to Greece to slavery started by Ottoman Turks for 500 years. And after all that suffering that our ancestors went through we'll still are oppressed and hated especially in America, so the elves matched everything of slavery to Tevinter, underlings of society by putting them into ghettos and "humans" killing elves en masse anytime they want to. It sounds similar closer to black people to me I think BioWare intended that on purpose. But you don't have to take my word for it, you can research it for yourself.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Ancient and Medieval times things with enslaved and conquered nations, not just jews and sure not as with africans was

True and true but Africans are the only ones who are still under the oppression of racism on a global level today started from ancient times ever since the Greeks and the Romans invaded Egypt. Same thing with the elves in DA.

[straykat]

Me personally. I think they made the elves based on black people not Jews. They have ghettos, women getting raped, slavery, and killing them like dogs. BioWare ain't fooling nobody.

 

I think they're more like native Americans and other native/aboriginal cultures.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I think they're more like native Americans and other native/aboriginal cultures.

Yeah but elves are closest to black people and other POC as well.

[straykat]

Yeah but elves are closest to black people and other POC as well.

 

There isn't much discussion about a lost past there though. People just want to rectify the present and future (funny since we're speaking of this on MLK day ). But with natives.. the lost past, the adoption of new religions.. those seem to hold more resentment.

 

If the Dalish were like black people (especially African American), they'd be some of the best Andrastians in the setting. But they're not.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

There isn't much discussion about a lost past there though. People just want to rectify the present and future (funny since we're speaking of this on MLK day ). But with natives.. the lost past, the adoption of new religions.. those seem to hold more resentment.
 
If the Dalish were like black people (especially African American), they'd be some of the best Andrastians in the setting. But they're not.

Well I think the elves symbolizes both blacks and Native Americans and because of the Dalish Elves and all, but I still think that black people are closest to elves in Dragon Age. But the whole Andrastian Religion/The Chantry was forced on elves to worship the maker and Andraste but refused so they committed genocide on the elves simply because they refused to bow down to them. Sane thing with the indigenous people of color converted against their will to Western religion.

[Ashagar]

True but out of every one in the world, black people suffer the most ever since Egypt falls to Greece to slavery started by Ottoman Turks for 500 years. And after all that suffering that our ancestors went through we'll still are oppressed and hated especially in America, so the elves matched everything of slavery to Tevinter, underlings of society by putting them into ghettos and "humans" killing elves en masse anytime they want to. It sounds similar closer to black people to me I think BioWare intended that on purpose. But you don't have to take my word for it, you can research it for yourself.

 

North Africans including Egyptians had skin colors that weren't that much different than what exist now in north Africa and the middle east. Also Slavery existed across the world including europe, it wasn't something that targeted just blacks even in the early modern period, the British enslaved the Irish to the tune of hundreds of thousand for opposing British rule and the Turks made slaves out of countless middle eastern and European peoples, it was also practiced in Africa on other Africans and in Asia as well.

 

I would also note that ghettos were originally created for Jews to live in though it was supposed to make them saver by removing them from being easy targets in the general population but backfired historically because instead of being scattered they were all in one place and were often targets of massacres during the middle ages to modern times especially during the times of the crusades.

 

The Romans expelled the Jews from their original homeland with many of them being dragged off to Rome as slaves that were sold to fund the construction of the Colosseum. It seems quite clear given the experience of the city elves that they were clearly based on the medieval/early modern experience of Jews which I'd suggest you look up.

[nightscrawl]

Apologies if it's already been posted, but you might be interested to watch David Gaider's presentation on diversity at Nordic Game, recently posted online. It's 45 min, but worth it, and he presents well.

 

At any rate, I know it's hard -- I fall into that trap too -- but you should try to not read those types of things as such postings are very rarely nuanced. If the person started out by lambasting "SJWs," then I would have just written it off as a lost cause for understanding and moved on.

 

Also, as DG points out in the presentation, DAI was their most diverse DA game to date and also their most successful. While those might not necessarily be related in terms of cause and effect (which he also points out), neither did the diversity hurt the game. I doubt that their attitude about diversity and its inclusion in the DA games will be changing anytime soon.

 

 

Also, I really couldn't tell from your posts mentioning "SJW" whether you know what it stands for or not. If so, then disregard. It stands for Social Justice Warrior. Of course, its popular use as an epithet by people who don't like having their majority status challenged in any way is just absurd, and like petulant children they resort to name-calling to make themselves feel better.

Сообщение изменено: nightscrawl, 19 Январь 2016 - 11:55 .

[straykat]

I don't see how this is their "most diverse" game btw. It's the same thing, and the many options are superficial.

 

And they reduce race to mere appearances now. The dwarves of DAO, for example, had more going for them. All of the protagonists are just mock humans. They don't really have much signifying culture in and of themselves. And I find that reducing people to appearances, whether intentionally or not, to be the most racist thing one can do. It's something even the most well meaning white American liberals do too. It's probably because they're devoid of any culture themselves. It's the only way they can promote their universalist ideals of people. By stripping them of identity.

 

Culture matters. Not appearance.

 

 

I'm not an "SJW" btw. I'm pretty conservative in general. Just calling bullshit on this.

[Illegitimus]

I don't see how this is their "most diverse" game btw. It's the same thing, and the many options are superficial.

 

And they reduce race to mere appearances now. The dwarves of DAO, for example, had more going for them. 

 

 

Only in that you actually went to their homeland.  By the end of Trespasser you got as much Qunari exoticism as was possible without specifically going there.  

[Akrabra]

Apologies if it's already been posted, but you might be interested to watch David Gaider's presentation on diversity at Nordic Game, recently posted online. It's 45 min, but worth it, and he presents well.

Interesting, thank you for posting it.

[nightscrawl]

I don't see how this is their "most diverse" game btw. It's the same thing, and the many options are superficial.

 

And they reduce race to mere appearances now. The dwarves of DAO, for example, had more going for them. All of the protagonists are just mock humans. They don't really have much signifying culture in and of themselves. And I find that reducing people to appearances, whether intentionally or not, to be the most racist thing one can do. It's something even the most well meaning white American liberals do too. It's probably because they're devoid of any culture themselves. It's the only way they can promote their universalist ideals of people. By stripping them of identity.

 

Culture matters. Not appearance.

 

 

I'm not an "SJW" btw. I'm pretty conservative in general. Just calling bullshit on this.

 

When I said "most diverse" I was referring to the PoC among our followers and the various NPCs, as well as sexualities (including non-follower NPC sexualities, like Celene and Briala). This thread is about real-world race and color and its influence on the games, not in-game non-human fantasy races.

 

In the presentation I linked, David Gaider talked about adding more female voices during VO recording, and doing a pass over the NPCs to add in a broader range of colors. The player isn't going to interact with said NPCs regardless of color; they are set decoration. So why not have them be a variety of colors? Those are intentional things that Bioware does because they think it's important to have that sort of representation in their games. They are making an effort, which is more than a lot of other developers or other entertainment media companies.

 

As far as the culture of those PoC are concerned, the main country of that type seems to be Rivain, from which we've had two companions, Isabela and Vivienne. We haven't actually been there or heard enough about it to know how the culture is. Antiva and Tevinter also have PoC and we also have not been there, even though we've had followers from those nations as well. However, I think Zevran, Josephine, Dorian (and Fenris? I'm never sure whether to count Fenris) all do a pretty decent job of representing their respective cultures. Vivienne says she's "from the Circle," and I think that Isabela is actively trying to move away from that part of her life, so they are iffy as far as that's concerned.

 

But we're not going to get a real sense of the culture of those places until we go there, as we did in DAO.

 

Regarding the DA races, you certainly aren't the only person who wants more reactivity along those lines. However, I think that's really more of a result of the plot of a given game than anything else. DAO felt like it had more racial diversity because our PC actually came from those cultures, we started there in the game, and then went back as part of the story. But DA2 and DAI didn't have that because of the plot. Also, the additional races were added to DAI only as a result of the additional year of development time.

 

Regarding your remarks about culture vs appearance, there are many players who would prefer the option of creating another race, even if it wasn't acknowledged as such in the game, just so they can RP that way. Appearance matters to those players, particularly those who consider humans to be "boring."

[Yumakooma]

Well to answer your question, no I don't think most people belived this was a european based white-only kind of game. I think only a shallow minority are even thinking about skin colour while playing.

 

Some people will always want to bring it up, always want to identify themselves or others by it. To me, its just a game, I don't care what skin colour any of the characters have or require an explanation for why people of different skin colours are allowed to be in the game.

 

Whoever wrote the article you read had a little too much spare time to think of new ways to criticise Bioware I guess

[nightscrawl]

Well to answer your question, no I don't think most people belived this was a european based white-only kind of game. I think only a shallow minority are even thinking about skin colour while playing.

 

Some people will always want to bring it up, always want to identify themselves or others by it. To me, its just a game, I don't care what skin colour any of the characters have or require an explanation for why people of different skin colours are allowed to be in the game.

 

Whoever wrote the article you read had a little too much spare time to think of new ways to criticise Bioware I guess

 

The odd thing about it, or about people decrying the sexualities of our followers, is that they fixate on these issues and the supposed lack of realism for a setting that has magic, dragons, demons, the Veil, darkspawn, and on and on. I mean, sure, some of the nations my be influenced (perhaps even heavily influenced, like Orlais), on certain real-world places and cultures, but they aren't meant to be 100% analogous to them.

 

And in the end, it's Bioware's IP, and they can do whatever they want.

[straykat]

Regarding your remarks about culture vs appearance, there are many players who would prefer the option of creating another race, even if it wasn't acknowledged as such in the game, just so they can RP that way. Appearance matters to those players, particularly those who consider humans to be "boring."

 

If humans are "boring", then I'll relegate that person as no better than a furry.

 

Why the **** would someone even buy Dragon Age and call humans boring? Most of it so far is centered on humans, human homes, human politics, human religion. And the humans aren't monolithic. They're drawn across national divides. It just diminishes how fun the setting is by lumping them all together. And I can only guess it's a furry who does this. Or something like it. It's nearly as dumb as someone saying Game of Thrones is boring because of humans.

[nightscrawl]

If humans are "boring", then I'll relegate that person as no better than a furry.

 

Why the **** would someone even buy Dragon Age and call humans boring? Most of it is still centered on humans, human homes, human politics, human religion. And the humans aren't monolithic. They're drawn across national divides. It just diminishes how fun the setting is by lumping them all together. And I can only guess it's a furry who does this. Or something like it.

 

/shrug I only play humans myself. The only non-human DA culture I'm interested in are the dwarves. And it's not just the DA games. Some players don't like to play humans in any game if the option is given to be something else. There are some segments of this thread that mention it.

[straykat]

/shrug I only play humans myself. The only non-human DA culture I'm interested in are the dwarves. And it's not just the DA games. Some players don't like to play humans in any game if the option is given to be something else. There are some segments of this thread that mention it.

 

I know there are some, but I don't understand where they're coming from. I think they might jump from any given fantasy setting and push this same stance, regardless of what the setting proposes. Every fantasy setting seems to have some group of people who say humans are boring... It makes sense if this was WoW or something, but I don't understand doing it to Dragon Age.

 

I like the other races though. I just don't want them too watered down. I liked both dwarves in DAO, personally. And I didn't mind the commoners in DA2 either. Kirkwall was overrun with all kinds of rogueish, mercs, or criminal types...but any race.

[Heimdall]

I know there are some, but I don't understand where they're coming from. I think they might jump from any given fantasy setting and push this same stance, regardless of what the setting proposes. Every fantasy setting seems to have some group of people who say humans are boring... It makes sense if this was WoW or something, but I don't understand doing it to Dragon Age.

 

I like the other races though. I just don't want them too watered down. I liked both dwarves in DAO, personally. And I didn't mind the commoners in DA2 either. Kirkwall was overrun with all kinds of rogueish, mercs, or criminal types...but any race.

They play as humans all the time in other games.  They're interested in playing other species in games the present the option precisely because the option is present.  In my experience people that say "humans are boring" are mostly just interested in the chance to try something different from human.

[Heimdall]

True and true but Africans are the only ones who are still under the oppression of racism on a global level today started from ancient times ever since the Greeks and the Romans invaded Egypt. Same thing with the elves in DA.

Define "Africans",

 

As for the elves, they're current state is analogous to the state of Jews(City Elves) and itinerant Romani(Dalish) in medieval Europe.  The rest of their traits are mostly owed to the long lineage of elves in fantasy literature and games.

[thats1evildude]

There were always black people in the setting; just look at Isabela. There just weren't a lot of them due to engine problems. That's not an issue anymore.

[Ryzaki]

There were always black people in the setting; just look at Isabela. There just weren't a lot of them due to engine problems. That's not an issue anymore.

 

Man I remember trying to make a black warden. I noped out of that right quick with the purple skin with those blotches. Made her look ill.

[straykat]

They play as humans all the time in other games.  They're interested in playing other species in games the present the option precisely because the option is present.  In my experience people that say "humans are boring" are mostly just interested in the chance to try something different from human.

 

Nothing wrong with playing them, but saying they're boring is dumb.. or at best, pretentious. Like I said, there's no point in even buying Dragon Age if you don't like humans. Whether it's the games, the books, the movies. And even when you don't play humans, you're gonna be a mock human. Or at best, dealing with a lot of their affairs. And you're gonna be a master of everything human, like it's your second skin. You're gonna rule their world, you're gonna change their leaders, meddle with their religion, dance at their balls, and drink their beer. In this game, more than ever. It's a lot of human activity one wades through just to say you're bored with it.