Questa discussione ha avuto 134 risposte

[Heimdall]

Nothing wrong with playing them, but saying they're boring is dumb.. or at best, pretentious. Like I said, there's no point in even buying Dragon Age if you don't like humans. Whether it's the games, the books, the movies. And even when you don't play humans, you're gonna be a mock human. Or at best, dealing with a lot of their affairs. And you're gonna be a master of everything human, like it's your second skin. You're gonna rule their world, you're gonna change their leaders, meddle with their religion, dance at their balls, and drink their beer. In this game, more than ever. It's a lot of human activity one wades through just to say you're bored with it.

I can't control how they phrase it, but I think that's the thought process: they like the idea of being something a little different for a change. It's less about humans being "boring" than humans being the baseline most closely mirroring aspects of the real world. It has less to do with rejecting humans or disliking humans than desiring exoticism.

[BSpud]

Hey OP, that was an article posted on Kotaku (a reader's blog entry, actually, not an official article from one of the staff writers), right? I read that a while back. Where I come from, we call people like that author A Goddamn Moron.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Nothing wrong with playing them, but saying they're boring is dumb.. or at best, pretentious. Like I said, there's no point in even buying Dragon Age if you don't like humans. Whether it's the games, the books, the movies. And even when you don't play humans, you're gonna be a mock human. Or at best, dealing with a lot of their affairs. And you're gonna be a master of everything human, like it's your second skin. You're gonna rule their world, you're gonna change their leaders, meddle with their religion, dance at their balls, and drink their beer. In this game, more than ever. It's a lot of human activity one wades through just to say you're bored with it.

 

I don't think Dragon Age humans are boring, but I did get terribly bored when I was playing as one in Inquisition. There are a few reasons why I prefer playing as the other races.

 

1. I am a human all day, and have been one for almost thirty-six years. A human is also the only option in most video games. Part of the fun of roleplaying is the opportunity to be something else. (Also, anyone who called my dwarf Inquisitor a mock human would get a long string of insults in dwarven and a kick in the shins. The experience of growing up as a surfacer dwarf in the Carta is not the same experience a human would have, and that adds to the roleplaying for me. My elf and qunari Inquisitors have backgrounds that inform their reactions to everything in the game.)

 

2. Everyone expects the Herald of Andraste to be a human. Defying expectations is fun! Messing around in institutions to which you're a complete outsider is even more fun! For me, anyway. Even as a Marcher, Trevalyan is just too much a part of the local establishment to be entertaining for me. (Although I have yet to play a human mage. I'm hoping that will be better.) I have a qunari mage Inquisitor whose crowning moment of awesome was getting 100% court approval, arresting Florianne and popping the 'Belle of the Ball' achievement at the same time. One of the most satisfying moments in any Dragon Age game, from my perspective.

 

3. And as much as it's fun to be different from myself, one of the reasons I like playing dwarves specifically is that they're more like me than the humans in one way. I am short, curvy and put on muscle easily. I've never seen a playable human female character in any video game that looks remotely like me. I probably never will. Which is just fine, as long as there are games where I can make a dwarf protagonist and save the world while being short, curvy and muscular.
 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Define "Africans",

As for the elves, they're current state is analogous to the state of Jews(City Elves) and itinerant Romani(Dalish) in medieval Europe. The rest of their traits are mostly owed to the long lineage of elves in fantasy literature and games.

OK check this out

Ancient Africa/Ancient Elves- they both have advanced civilizations in ancient times, wonders like the eluvions from elves and the pyramids from Egypt, they both fell from within and invaded by foreign nations. And obviously they have history of slavery that destroys their culture, language, philosophies, and their religion by forcing them to convert to their religion, language, and their way of life like European ministries who came to "civilize" African people and sane as the Chantry committed genocide and forcing their religion on the elves on the Dales. When you get a chance look up They Came Before Columbus, The Destruction of Black Civilization, and The Black Genesis.

And the Dalish Elves symbolizes the indigenous people of color as tribes like the Native Americans, the Mali tribes, and so many other tribes, and they have keepers as a shaman to guide the people to a spiritual path, and keepers of history of the people. Also they both respect and love nature, men provide and protect the tribe, women raising their kids, and they love each other. No European nomadic tribe in history have a spiritual aspect of their tribes nor their connection to nature.

[Heimdall]

OK check this out

Ancient Africa/Ancient Elves- they both have advanced civilizations in ancient times, wonders like the eluvions from elves and the pyramids from Egypt, they both fell from within and invaded by foreign nations. And obviously they have history of slavery that destroys their culture, language, philosophies, and their religion by forcing them to convert to their religion, language, and their way of life like European ministries who came to "civilize" African people and sane as the Chantry committed genocide and forcing their religion on the elves on the Dales. When you get a chance look up They Came Before Columbus, The Destruction of Black Civilization, and The Black Genesis.

And the Dalish Elves symbolizes the indigenous people of color as tribes like the Native Americans, the Mali tribes, and so many other tribes, and they have keepers as a shaman to guide the people to a spiritual path, and keepers of history of the people. Also they both respect and love nature, men provide and protect the tribe, women raising their kids, and they love each other. No European nomadic tribe in history have a spiritual aspect of their tribes nor their connection to nature.

Actually I'd say the comparison to Jews is stronger here, take the book of Exodus: the Isrealites were slaves to a powerful empire, freed by divine intervention (A prophet's crusade in DA), proceeded to the promised land (The dales), and ultimately subjugated by another empire (Rome, Orlais) and ultimately end up sequestered in ghettos.

And I laugh at that book title, because the idea of there being a meaningful pan-African identity or designation except one imposed by Europeans is ridiculous. Besides which, on the subject of Egypt, it had long been conquered by the Persian Empire before the Greeks ever got there and to my knowledge Christianity spread there peacefully before the Arab conquest, it wasn't imposed by an exterior power.

Actually combining the role of spiritual leader and political leader is pretty common, especially amongst societies that live in small groups. The ancient Germanic tribes did it too, where a group's king served the role of chieftain, judge, high priest and warleader. It's hardly a unique Native American cultural trait. I'm not knowledgable about the practices of the Romani, but the distrust shown to them in medieval European society most closely mirrors the attitude toward the Dalish.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Actually I'd say the comparison to Jews is stronger here, take the book of Exodus: the Isrealites were slaves to a powerful empire, freed by divine intervention (A prophet's crusade in DA), proceeded to the promised land (The dales), and ultimately subjugated by another empire (Rome, Orlais) and ultimately end up sequestered in ghettos.

And I laugh at that book title, because the idea of there being a meaningful pan-African identity or designation except one imposed by Europeans is ridiculous. Besides which, on the subject of Egypt, it had long been conquered by the Persian Empire before the Greeks ever got there and to my knowledge Christianity spread there peacefully before the Arab conquest, it wasn't imposed by an exterior power.

Actually combining the role of spiritual leader and political leader is pretty common, especially amongst societies that live in small groups. The ancient Germanic tribes did it too, where a group's king served the role of chieftain, judge, high priest and warleader. It's hardly a unique Native American cultural trait. I'm not knowledgable about the practices of the Romani, but the distrust shown to them in medieval European society most closely mirrors the attitude toward the Dalish.

Whatever you say.

[Vanilka]

This is the internet. You're going to encounter all kinds of opinions. Some of them are, sadly, unfair and unkind and xenophobic. In a game with magic, dragons, walking corpses, and I don't know what else, in a game where countries with dark-skinned people have been established, like Rivain and Antiva, since the day one, in a game where people trade, travel, and generally get around a lot, it's mind-boggling that some still take it as BioWare catering to "SJWs". It's mind-boggling they're even surprised by the presence of these characters. It's like you said, OP, they haven't been paying attention to the setting or something. Characters of various skin colours have always been part of the setting after all and there's also absolutely no reason they should not be. Even if the game might have been based on old Europe, it's still a fictional world and world of its own. Hell, if we can have a nation of grey-skinned people with horns and we can have some as companions, and nobody complains about those...

 

Another thing is that none of these people ever thinks that maybe, just maybe BioWare truly want diversity in their games because they think it's a good idea and because it makes the world more interesting. No, there always has to be some sort of political agenda behind it. And, hell, even if, why is taking different kinds of people into consideration and wanting to make them happy a bad thing exactly? Especially when it's done well. It's not like characters like Vivienne or Isabela are there just for the sake of being there and have nothing to do.

 

Basically, you can never make some people happy. You include characters like Vivienne who is a genuinely interesting and unique person (that we even know where she's from) and you're a SJW. You include people of different sexualities to make different gamers happy, dividing them equally (2-2-2), and you're a SJW. (Just watched some Iron Bull romance vid on YouTube with a male Inquisitor and half of the people in the comments were getting their knickers into twist because "BioWare panders to SJWs," and because it's "disgusting" and whatnot. When people actively complain about these things getting included at all, no matter how well done, it's pretty offensive. Then it's like people like you always need to have some elaborate reason to exist in fictional settings and only a very limited number of them is acceptable. Then maybe, just maybe these gamers are going to TOLERATE them.) You acknowledge your female fanbase and you're a SJW and pandering to feminazis. "It breaks my immersion," they say. But meleeing a dragon of the size of a building hurling electricity at them somehow doesn't bother them.

 

Then again, I think there's no point in caring about a bunch of narrow-minded fools on the Internet who can't deal with sharing their toys with others and seeing diversity in their games. There will always be some of those. But I like to believe they're not the majority. By far. Fortunately, BioWare don't seem to pay much attention to them.

[slimgrin]

^ Manufactured outrage. Gamers didn't complain about dark skinned people in Origins. Why is there a perceived problem now? Bioware, instead of just doing what they want about diversity, keep trumpeting on about it and it just annoys people. No one is trying to take your minorities away. 

[Helmetto]

 

 

So my question is this...did people legitimately believe this was an all white European ethnic setting?

 

Considering Sten was hella grey, and Zevran had the tannest backside out of all the companions, no.

 

 

I like how they targeted race specifically, and not the more cringe-worthy, preachy parts of the game that I can see people having problems with (i.e. that conversation about Krem with Iron Bull and the Chargers where everything you say is the wrong thing)

[Vanilka]

^ Manufactured outrage. Gamers didn't complain about dark skinned people in Origins. Why is there a perceived problem now? Bioware, instead of just doing what they want about diversity, keep trumpeting on about it and it just annoys people. No one is trying to take your minorities away. 

 

Nobody said so. I was responding to the OP who obviously encountered such a reaction. But keep trumpeting about how you're annoyed and keep misunderstanding what I talked about. Also, keep visiting threads that annoy you. Time well spent.

 

To rephrase it so even you could understand it: "Random idiots on the internet exist but they don't matter." Better now? Can you comprehend?

[In Exile]

I can't control how they phrase it, but I think that's the thought process: they like the idea of being something a little different for a change. It's less about humans being "boring" than humans being the baseline most closely mirroring aspects of the real world. It has less to do with rejecting humans or disliking humans than desiring exoticism.

 

Right, but it's still "human" exoticism. You could re-create the entire setting with nothing but humans. 

[In Exile]

^ Manufactured outrage. Gamers didn't complain about dark skinned people in Origins. Why is there a perceived problem now? Bioware, instead of just doing what they want about diversity, keep trumpeting on about it and it just annoys people. No one is trying to take your minorities away. 

 

They did when people suggested we should have more of them, with the usual refrain of historical accuracy. 

[Heimdall]

Right, but it's still "human" exoticism. You could re-create the entire setting with nothing but humans.

Yes and no, the exotic appearance is part of the appeal.

[nightscrawl]

Yes and no, the exotic appearance is part of the appeal.

 

This is actually something I have a problem with in relation to elves in various fantasy series. It always seems to me that there is a high degree of fetishization of elves for that very reason. Even David Gaider falls into that trap in The Stolen Throne by making comments regarding elves having an otherworldly appeal to humans.

 

Of course, this can't really be carried out in the games because we're talking about a race that doesn't actually exist, so you can't make the claim when there is a high chance that the actual human players will hear those remarks and go, "Huh?" since they're not being influenced by a real elf's physical presence and exotic beauty.

[Illegitimus]

Right, but it's still "human" exoticism. You could re-create the entire setting with nothing but humans. 

 

Well no.  I couldn't.  Had the empire of Arlathan been humans then they would have long since ethnically merged with the majority.  The City Elves would not exist.  The Dalish claim that their ancestors had once been impervious to biological aging would not be believed by players.  Similarly people accept the impossible lifestyle of the dwarves because they are dwarves and everyone knows that dwarves ignore the impossibility of raising food underground.  

[LinksOcarina]

Perhaps they are missing the point in the end then?

 

After all, the "races" in Dragon Age are predominant on cultural traditions/beliefs/accent, much like late Roman/Early European era in the modern day, at least in terms of humans.

 

I think the problem is people tend to see fantasy as always whitewashed because it's always based on Medieval Europe. The elves, dwarves and whatever generic races tend to fill in that gap.

 

I do, however, think even in Dragon Age that is a misnomer to pigeon-hole elves, dwarves and such as "racial group X" in some form, when background and personal history become more important to their story than simple race. Kind of like how Sera and Solas represent different world views on elves, or how Varric and Zevran were countrymen first and foremost.

 

If nothing else that shows good diversity because it is what would HAPPEN in such a world. Racial plurality is a very fantasy cliche, one I would hope to avoid in Dragon Age for as long as possible.  Hell, they even touch upon this by turning such beliefs into rumors and hearsay over facts. 

[Amne YA]

well being black or white or purple in dragon age dont matter . 
cause the hate is betwen races and fractions . human / elfs .  templar / mages ... etc .  

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I think people need to realize that Thedas is not really Europe. Therefore, I see nothing out of place with diversifying the races.

[In Exile]

Well no.  I couldn't.  Had the empire of Arlathan been humans then they would have long since ethnically merged with the majority.  The City Elves would not exist.  The Dalish claim that their ancestors had once been impervious to biological aging would not be believed by players.  Similarly people accept the impossible lifestyle of the dwarves because they are dwarves and everyone knows that dwarves ignore the impossibility of raising food underground.  

 

Dark souls. A game where there are "humans", who are not humans. There's no merit to the idea that the cultural divisions couldn't exist. Just look at how in the 18th century American intellectuals were writing about the danger of America being invaded by the non-whites like the Italians or Irish. 

 

The rest is just absurd. And people should refuse to believe the Dalish claim. It's stupid and baseless, and the fact that their ears are pointy doesn't make it truer. 

[Illegitimus]

Dark souls. A game where there are "humans", who are not humans. There's no merit to the idea that the cultural divisions couldn't exist. Just look at how in the 18th century American intellectuals were writing about the danger of America being invaded by the non-whites like the Italians or Irish. 

 

The rest is just absurd. And people should refuse to believe the Dalish claim. It's stupid and baseless, and the fact that their ears are pointy doesn't make it truer. 

 

And yet, it is in fact true.  Their ancestors were immortal (in a loose "eventually we exist in a kind of a perpetual dream/living death state" sort of way).  And two centuries later the fear of Italians and Irish was largely meaningless.  The fall of Arlathan happened thousands of years ago.  A cultural division based on neither religion, nor language,nor distinct physical appearance that caused one group in the former territory to claim descent from them while the other doesn't is impossible.  Everyone would be descended from the Arlathans (everyone is, it's the just that only some of them have a distinctive physical trait that all Arlathans had).  That's how inheritance works.  I don't say cultural divisions wouldn't exist.  Of course they would.  But I'd have to rewrite the whole timeline for that one to make sense.  

[Sarielle]

East Asians, South East Asians. Not even perfectly. They have never intended it, they don't even bother to make a preset. There are a lot of stuffs lacking. The Asian skull structure is a lot toner and often less edges, their nose shape and eye shape are lacking, the Asian lips can be a bit fuller than the Caucasian preset. At best, you could make a somewhat mixed person, but no Asian. 

 

Eh, I think I did a decent job. She'd look more authentic without blue eyes, but I liked Memoirs of a Geisha, sue me It's not perfect but if we're going for "Jade Empire" Asian, imo you can the right nose (I was also trying to include the elvish nose bridge here) and OK-ish eyes.

 

They should include a preset, though.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

I tweaked her from my original sliders for better animation. I felt like the originals were a bit more authentic, but she didn't look the best in combat stance etc.

 

Anyways, while I do think there's some "SJWing" going on in Inquisition (that super cringy Krem convo), I don't think the majority of players bat an eyelash at a diversity in skintones. One dude writing a blog piece doesn't mean most of us feel that way. I wouldn't waste too much energy on it.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Bioware's isn't pandering to SJW's. Bioware is run buy SJW's and always has been. I mean, they've had LGBT characters in their games since 2000, folks. This isn't a new trend.

[Ghost Gal]

So my question is this...did people legitimately believe this was an all white European ethnic setting?

 

Thedas is basically Fantasy Medieval Europe, pre-Age of Exploration. Ferelden is Fantasy Medieval England, Orlais is Fantasy Medieval France, Antiva is Fantasy early-Renaissance Italy, Tevinter is Fantasy Roman -> Byzantine Empire, Rivain is Moorish Spain, etc. Most humans are Fantasy Medieval European Catholics, Dwarves are Fantasy Medieval Scandinavia/Germanic war people, Elves are every minority ever to come into contact with white Europeans (Jews, Gypsies, African Americans, Native Americans, Irish back when that was a Bad Thing), etc.

 

So in that sense I'm not surprised that most characters are pale like Europeans, since this is a Medieval European fantasy.

 

HOWEVER, BioWare cleverly wrote areas closer to that world's equator who not only naturally have darker skin, but who have fairly frequent travel, trade, and contact with "European" regions: Seheron and Par Vollen are roughly North Africa. Again, Rivain is Moorish Spain (back when Jews, Muslims, and Africans inhabited it), Antiva is Italy, and Tevinter is the Mediterranean. Most characters who have darker skin tones are attributed to come from or be descended from those regions (like Duncan and Isabela being Rivaini), so it makes sense.

 

I personally don't have a problem with increased people of color in these games, especially since we're moving away from the Frozen South of DAO (Ferelden, Kocari Wilds) and closer to that world's northern equator region. In DA2 we lived in the Free Marches, which isn't that far from Antiva or Rivain. In DAI we stretched all over Southern Thedas, which included characters from the Free Marches, Par Vollen, and Tevinter. Next game, we're going to Tevinter, close to Seheron and Par Vollen.

 

If people are going to whine that the characters aren't universally white in a Medieval Fantasy Game that includes other Medieval fantasy locations besides the usual North Western Europe and Scandinavian counterparts (England, Scotland, Norway, etc), then that's their problem.

[In Exile]

And yet, it is in fact true.  Their ancestors were immortal (in a loose "eventually we exist in a kind of a perpetual dream/living death state" sort of way).  And two centuries later the fear of Italians and Irish was largely meaningless.  The fall of Arlathan happened thousands of years ago.  A cultural division based on neither religion, nor language,nor distinct physical appearance that caused one group in the former territory to claim descent from them while the other doesn't is impossible.  Everyone would be descended from the Arlathans (everyone is, it's the just that only some of them have a distinctive physical trait that all Arlathans had).  That's how inheritance works.  I don't say cultural divisions wouldn't exist.  Of course they would.  But I'd have to rewrite the whole timeline for that one to make sense.  

 

It's not true. Everything the Dalish believe is fundamentally wrong. They get very general details right, but those details are almost coincidental. Certainly all of their explanations range from inaccurate to pure fantasy to racist drivel. And more to the point, the coincidental fact that the supposition of a stupid theory is true does not grant greater merit to the theory. 

 

The essence of a fantasy setting is a kind of ahistorical stupid stasis. We have worlds were millennium pass and cultures and technology remain totally stagnant. This makes no sense, but it's so fundamental to the setting we just have to accept it or the whole house of cards collapses on itself. It's no less stupid than Tevinter having, essentially, a functionally identical culture for thousands of years (apart from some political changes and one religious conversion). 

 

Besides, now you're switching the goalposts. The elves do have a different religion, they do have a different language, and they do have different physical appearances. And even as they get assimilated, to some extent, these differences exist. Because we are right back to IRL difference. 

 

They wouldn't need to re-write anything to make it work, at least, not more than their setting needs to be re-written to actually accord with how society works in the first place. 

[In Exile]

Thedas is basically Fantasy Medieval Europe, pre-Age of Exploration. Ferelden is Fantasy Medieval England, Orlais is Fantasy Medieval France, Antiva is Fantasy early-Renaissance Italy, Tevinter is Fantasy Roman -> Byzantine Empire, Rivain is Moorish Spain, etc. Most humans are Fantasy Medieval European Catholics, Dwarves are Fantasy Medieval Scandinavia/Germanic war people, Elves are every minority ever to come into contact with white Europeans (Jews, Gypsies, African Americans, Native Americans, Irish back when that was a Bad Thing), etc.

 

That doesn't work. Because as I've just been discussing "white European" is a notion that doesn't exist this way historically. I mean, "Irish" as a non-white European? What about, say, all of Eastern Europe, which historically wasn't considered the proper kind of "white"?

 

These racial divisions don't match up well. Neither does the history. There's a huge pastiche, but it's more cultural than racial. The dwarves to Scandinavia analogy in particular doesn't work at all - especially since these people were medieval European Catholics. In fact, speaking of "Germanic" you would really have a prototypical group of Catholics (versus say the Greeks, or other Christian Orthodox groups).