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fewer subordinate romances


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#151
aoibhealfae

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Bioware probably just forgot their crazy typo ranks they created when they named him a Major in ME3.  Especially given the fact that there was a proliferation of characters with ranks that don't appear in the made up Alliance ranks from the ME1 codex.

 

There was that "We're marines. We stick together" line which Kaidan use to refer both Shepard and him. But Alliance Systems was suppose to stand as a collection of all government on Earth. Their military seemed to be based on United Nations peacekeepers, military force contributed from all various allied nations and human colonies rather than just a derivative of an American-centric military structure. And the game itself doesn't concern much on being consistent so I am willing to overlook little things that didn't make sense.

 

Besides, the trilogy was already wacky on the science. And I don't really want to nitpick on why the frak there's a lot of digital scale and microscope in every room in a hospital. Or why the doctors and experimental researchers working in the same vicinity. Or why dead scientists ratio was unusually high and the whole "its all about resources" to bring back Shepard, if that's the case, we could have already cured cancer and HIV.. you just need money for experiments to work... and hey, they bring back Shepard from the dead! Someone should lock her up somewhere and study the science like goddamn they break the fourth wall by cheating death! That's a discovery of the galaxy... but nope.. you're alive huh? carry on.


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#152
Master Warder Z_

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if that's the case, we could have already cured cancer and HIV

 

If its anything like cancer, its gone by the time of ME.



#153
aoibhealfae

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If its anything like cancer, its gone by the time of ME.

 

In ME, they couldn't even completely cure Miranda of her medical condition. And considering what I learn about cancer and genetics and nature's tendency to frak up, I am deeply skeptical that they're that advanced to fix or predict and fix every single types of defects in cellular division. Cancer is not just one condition. Besides every one of us do develop some cancer cells at some point in our life. Our body do come equipped with immune system that can kill cancer cells but sometimes it wasn't enough or perfect and they get overwhelmed. Cancer is your own body trying to kill you, very literally. And they may still live longer than usual but they still have age-related conditions like Alzheimer is still prevalent and so was the prevalence of genetic diseases like Osteogenesis imperfecta and adults with congenital heart disease. Either way, this is one of the reason why I kinda like ME, unlike most scifi, they don't wave space magic these things away.


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#154
Nattfare

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And what hand to use when saluting

 

The backhand, right?


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#155
Dean_the_Young

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Not to mention that if BW was going for a half-way serious/realistic scenario then they'd have the military gender segregated.

 

I'm amused that you don't consider the American military half-way serious or realistic.


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#156
Dean_the_Young

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Better idea: how about romances are just out of the chain of command, period?

 

But I want to engage in undo influence by sleeping with my superiors for special favors and considerations! Special consideration in my favor should always be allowed!

 

But obviously anyone else who does such a thing should be rightly crucified for corruption, loss of trust, and poor order and indiscipline- if it works against me.

 

(I'd be amused if the plot has the PC being hindered because their superior is giving resources to the person they're sleeping with instead.)
 


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#157
Dean_the_Young

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Fraternity regulations are broken all the time. That there are rules doesn't mean they are always obeyed.

 

Neither are laws against rape, murder, and incest. That doesn't mean there isn't a point to such laws, however.

 

'Rules are broken' doesn't mean that breaking rules is therefore justified. That's just  confusing a failure of absolute adherance for inherent illegitimacy.

 

 

 

Shepard does it with more gutso than most and doesn't even attempt to hide it admitedly, but 1) in ME1 they are on a mission as a Specter, and answer only to the Council who probably don't give a toss about Shepard's dalliances, 2) in ME2 they are with Cerberus, who aren't a strictly military organization and don't likely frown on fraternization (not like TIM would enforce that on Shepard even if they did), and 3) in ME3, who cares about the one person everyone looks up to breaking fraternity regulations when the world is about to end.

 

 

The people who care are the people care about the reasons why fraternization is forbidden by professional and effective organizations, rather than merely caring that the legal authority that says it is forbidden.

 

Going to a place where there are no laws, or the rules can't be upheld, doesn't mean that the actions that such rules prohibit are suddenly better ideas. Just because you can get away with murder doesn't suddenly make murder harmless. Just because no one will hold responsible for fraternization doesn't mean it doesn't have inherant risks and costs.
 

 

I assume we are still going to be a commanding officier of sorts in Andromeda, and I fully expect the trend to continue. No need to limit romance options for an attempt at "realism" that isn't that realistic.

 

What's unrealistic about the problems typically associated with people sleeping with the boss?

 

Also keep in mind that the aspect of 'realism' most people care about isn't that such things are done- it's the reflected reactions and consequences thereof. Good leaders don't take needless risks with their team by sleeping around with their subordinates. Shepard is supposed to be a good leader- it's pounded into us across ME2 and much of ME3. Supposedly good leader doing bad leader things is a conflict.


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#158
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In ME, they couldn't even completely cure Miranda of her medical condition

 

The Illusive Man mentions offhand in Retribution how its now vain and egoistical to smoke because the health risks associated with it haven't been relevant for more then a century. Which given the whole thing about being able to treat genetic illness before birth thing, makes sense. Also I am halfway convinced that Miranda was engineered to be sterile, which given her artificial creation...would make sense.


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#159
katamuro

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The Illusive Man mentions offhand in Retribution how its now vain and egoistical to smoke because the health risks associated with it haven't been relevant for more then a century. Which given the whole thing about being able to treat genetic illness before birth thing, makes sense. Also I am halfway convinced that Miranda was engineered to be sterile, which given her artificial creation...would make sense.

 

The reason for Miranda's health problem and associated sterility is more likely the fact that her father meddled too much in her genetic makeup. After all he didn't just create her out of his own DNA that was manipulated enough to produce viable fetus but he also gave her biotic powers in-vitro and all kinds of other associated genetic mods. Generally human genome doesn't like when someone or something meddles too much with it. 

Also it seems that her sister is not a biotic. Or at least it is never mentioned that she is a biotic. Which would mean that her sister is not exactly like her. Probably made a backup in case the first one proved too much to control. 


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#160
Dean_the_Young

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I'd like a romance with someone of equal rank (I'm fine with being stuck at sergeant or some such myself, thank you very much), but make that romance very subtle and subdued because both parties actually stick to the no fraternisation rules. Just looks and small gestures and the occasional innuendo. At the end of the main story,the protagonist quits military service and the romance's resolution - or its real start, if you will - is in the epilogue.

 

This is actually a good demonstration of how such a relationship could work. Deferred culmination- in which interest is there but professionalism is the obstacle- is a good use of the dynamic that Bioware woefully passed on.

 

Good example of the dynamic would be Roy Mustand and Riza Hawkeye from the anime Fullmetal Alchemist.

 

The problem is that in the end, you'll always end up with characters who will end up with less dialogue, because of the nature of their position in the game, will always have fewer opportunities for as much dialogue as followers. One of the nice things about the characters our PC takes on quests is that they have a lot to say throughout the story, thus you get a better illustration of their personalities than most.

 

This isn't inherent by any means. EDI, for example, probably had as much or more dialogue in ME2 as any of the companions, romances included, and more 'responsiveness' to the plot twists in the missions. Most of the ME2 companion dialogue was interchangeable filler. Morevoer, dialogue budgets could simply be re-allocated. Companions you take into the field have their 'field' budget and ship conversations, but non-combat NPCs could simply have more non-mission dialogue.

 

 

There's also the point that, at least in Mass Effect, romanced companions had very, very few romance-specific dialogues or reflections on mission developments or progress.

 

There are  number of different ways in which someone can express characterization, even along missions, without needing to be a squad-mate/subordinate.

 

-Voice in the head/distant observer- the EDI/Cortana route, in which the character sees what the protagonist sees and has a communication link. Support character isn't physically present, but can have a significant role in developing the story and context.

 

-Escorted non-combatant- the person who is there because Reasons, but stays back and doesn't participate in combat. Typically used if the escortee is a specialist with a certain skill set, or being rescued, or simply someone a non-controlled NPC. Used on a number of occasions in Dragon Age.

 

-Parallel progression- the person is contributing to the mission in a way, is able to coordinate and communicate with the PC, but not on the PC's path and not under their command. Mordin in ME3's Surkesh mission, Nihlus in ME1's tutorial, but most relevantly the entire rest of the squad during the Citadel DLC, where all of Shepard's crew are fighting the mercs from the flanks.

 

-In-mission link-up. When the level/mission design allows and encourages breaks from the combat to talk-to and coordinate with NPCs. Best example is the Winter Palace in DAI, where the PC can talk with the (potentially romanced) Advisors across the mission. In Mass Effect, an example of an applicable stage setup would be Noveria- where Shepard has numerous 'civilian spaces' (the Port, the huddled survivors) where a non-combat NPC could be present and/or follow as the player leaves and returns.

 

 

And that's without the possibility of post-mission conversations to reflect on what happened.

 

-Imagine if, say, Kelly in ME2, serving as informal counselor if you wanted, could let the player role-play reactions and justifications to their Big Decisions? That'd add another layer of role-playing opportunity to players by not simply accepting the in-the-field dialogue as the protagonists One True Expression of Feeling that would never be revisted again. The NPC could indicate an opinion or view, even as the PC can run the gauntlet from 'I did what I had to' to 'I have doubts' to 'I lied, but it had to be done.'


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#161
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The reason for Miranda's health problem and associated sterility is more likely the fact that her father meddled too much in her genetic makeup. 

 

I don't see that as 'more likely', I see it as 'likely' same as my own proposed notion of what is.

 

.-.

 

I mean i look it in terms of creating the perfect doll, you don't want the creature to ruin her body with unwanted romance or alike, if you look at it through the lens of someone owning property that mindset just comes with the notion that breeding with ruin everything if it isn't done specifically to your own set condition.



#162
fraggle

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I might agree. But I do like the idea that two soldiers take the risk to be together, fall in love despite the rules and the chain of command. Bioware just needs to work the drama, conflicting feelings, and the consequences around it. It didn't happen in the previous Mass effect to be honest. It would be more interesting.

 

That's exactly what I'd love to see too!

Actually we could've almost gotten it in ME3, had they made James an LI. It would've fit what you describe perfectly as James is SO conflicted about this whole thing, it could've been a really great romance. It doesn't even need to lead anything. I'd like it if, say, he would in the end have decided he doesn't want to go through with it. Granted, that's actually almost what happened in the Citadel DLC, but FemShep's writing was horrendous there, so for the next time I hope they improve this if they ever include such a romance :)

I'm really hoping for it as I want to be able to deal more with the consequences and conflicted feelings in such a relationship as well. Fingers crossed!


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#163
MissMayhem96

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Or we could have a romance that lives on a Hub planet, like a civilian.



#164
DaemionMoadrin

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The Illusive Man mentions offhand in Retribution how its now vain and egoistical to smoke because the health risks associated with it haven't been relevant for more then a century. Which given the whole thing about being able to treat genetic illness before birth thing, makes sense. Also I am halfway convinced that Miranda was engineered to be sterile, which given her artificial creation...would make sense.

 

Seeing as her father wanted her to continue his legacy, her being unable to have children most certaintly wasn't planned. Unless she was supposed to procreate through cloning.


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#165
Master Warder Z_

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Seeing as her father wanted her to continue his legacy, her being unable to have children most certaintly wasn't planned. Unless she was supposed to procreate through cloning.


He didn't want a legacy through her, he wanted a dynasty of sequences of Clones which was highlighted in ME3 and one of the few things I felt actually narratively fit.

His whole deal with Cerberus was based around their knowledge of cloning procedures and knowledge.

#166
DaemionMoadrin

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He didn't want a legacy through her, he wanted a dynasty of sequences of Clones which was highlighted in ME3 and one of the few things I felt actually narratively fit.

His whole deal with Cerberus was based around their knowledge of cloning procedures and knowledge.

 

That's the first time I heard about this interpretation. Genetic dynasty, sure... but sequences of clones? That's news to me.

 

It isn't mentioned here either: http://masseffect.wi...ki/Henry_Lawson


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#167
Malthier

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But I want to engage in undo influence by sleeping with my superiors for special favors and considerations! Special consideration in my favor should always be allowed!

 

But obviously anyone else who does such a thing should be rightly crucified for corruption, loss of trust, and poor order and indiscipline- if it works against me.

 

this. but without the sarcasm. 



#168
Hanako Ikezawa

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This is actually a good demonstration of how such a relationship could work. Deferred culmination- in which interest is there but professionalism is the obstacle- is a good use of the dynamic that Bioware woefully passed on.

 

Good example of the dynamic would be Roy Mustand and Riza Hawkeye from the anime Fullmetal Alchemist.

I would love to have a romance like Roy and Riza have. They don't sleep together or even fraternize because they are both in the military, and they have a deep love for each other that is more intimate than most other romances I've seen. 


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#169
Master Warder Z_

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That's the first time I heard about this interpretation. Genetic dynasty, sure... but sequences of clones? That's news to me.

 

He already had several clones produced before Miranda, why wouldn't he continue the process after Oriana proved unreliable? 

 

Plus the audio logs on Horizion, speak of his motivation of joining back up with Cerberus. It goes beyond the savior complex, as Miranda herself talks about, her father cut a deal with the Illusive Man.



#170
Seboist

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Always felt like there were some incestuous undertones with the whole handcrafted ideal woman/daughter creating of Henry's. Just imagine his thought process when designing their rears....


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#171
Aimi

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This is actually a good demonstration of how such a relationship could work. Deferred culmination- in which interest is there but professionalism is the obstacle- is a good use of the dynamic that Bioware woefully passed on.
 
Good example of the dynamic would be Roy Mustand and Riza Hawkeye from the anime Fullmetal Alchemist.

 
An example of this done almost right in video games is Blaze and Edge in Ace Combat 5.
 

Always felt like there were some incestuous undertones with the whole handcrafted ideal woman/daughter creating of Henry's. Just imagine his thought process when designing their rears....


I really appreciate you making something that was already really creepy even creepier. Exactly what I needed.
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#172
Laughing_Man

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Always felt like there were some incestuous undertones with the whole handcrafted ideal woman/daughter creating of Henry's. Just imagine his thought process when designing their rears....

 

The name Lawson is actually a modernization of the name Lannister...


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#173
Master Warder Z_

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The name Lawson is actually a modernization of the name Lannister...

 

Hey!

 

Don't diss House Lannister!

 

Everyone loves the Lannisters!

 


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#174
Xen

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Always felt like there were some incestuous undertones with the whole handcrafted ideal woman/daughter creating of Henry's. Just imagine his thought process when designing their rears....

Always suspected the same. Designing Miranda's T&A like that actually is detrimental to her supposed higher physical capabilities (look at female athletes), so what could be the purpose? She doesn't use it for seduction, after all.

 

Henry's a psychopathic narcissistic control freak (like most child abusers). Would perfectly match his character.

 
An example of this done almost right in video games is Blaze and Edge in Ace Combat 5.
 

I may be misrembering it but I thought it was Nagase and Davenport that had something (well, until the latter bit it)? Blaze was basically Gordon Freeman in a fighter plane like every AC protagonist up to Bishop. Okay, Blaze could at least answer yes/no questions, but still.


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#175
Laughing_Man

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Ignoring that any kind of incest implication in regards to the Lawson story is probably not part of the writer's intentions,

the reaction to mentions of incest in media, be it games / books / other, is actually very interesting in general.

 

It's very similar to the weird artificial dichotomy in some people's mind when it comes to the depiction of violence Vs. sexual acts in video games (or other media).

 

I'll quote G.R.R. Martin on this:

 

"I can describe an axe entering a human skull in great explicit detail and no one will blink twice at it. I provide a similar description, just as detailed, of a penis entering a vagina, and I get letters about it and people swearing off. To my mind this is kind of frustrating, it's madness. Ultimately, in the history of [the] world, penises entering vaginas have given a lot of people a lot of pleasure. Axes entering skulls, well, not so much."

 

Now with incest, it seems that there is a similar attitude, even among the self proclaimed "open-minded" groups that support any other obscure sexuality type or desire, like incest is too much...

 

Personally, I'm not particularly intrigued by the idea of incest on its own merit, but it does tend to be a rather rare element that has the potential to wake you up startled in the middle of an otherwise yawn-worthy generic story that you have experienced before multiple times.


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