104 réponses à ce sujet

[Forge]

Hi!

How do you think they will solve a problem with weapons? I mean, in Andromeda you won't have any weapon factories and heat sinks will be limited. So will it be back to Heating System from Mass Effect 1 or your enemies will drop them anyway?

[Fiery Phoenix]

I'd love to go back to heat sinks, personally. But realistically I expect more of what we got in ME3 for combat stuff.

[Novak]

Hi!

How do you think they will solve a problem with weapons? I mean, in Andromeda you won't have any weapon factories and heat sinks will be limited. So will it be back to Heating System from Mass Effect 1 or your enemies will drop them anyway?

 

I wish they would. Sure in ME1 if you upgraded your weapons correctly at one point you were able to fire indefinitely with the Assault rifle and destory everything in your path. 

 

If you were playing as Soldier and had the right equipment you could take down a colossus faster with your rifle than your mako.

[SardaukarElite]

Advanced 3D printers and planets with raw materials. 

 

I suspect they might change the heating system again anyway, simply because it still doesn't work well. 

[Halfdan The Menace]

I would like a energy-based battleaxe. Bigger, sharper, deadlier than lightsabers. Perfect for a space barbarian dude.

[HenkieDePost]

I think they'll go back to using AK-47's because they still work after the new protagonist drops it in the mud whilst exploring.

[Xerxes52]

Overheat weapons (much like the ME3 Lancer variant and the Particle Rifle) would be my choice. You're in an uncharted, most likely hostile galaxy with no guarantee of regular supply lines. It would make sense to have weapons, vehicles, etc. that are designed to operate without support for lengthy periods of time.

[Larry-3]

Semi-automatic rifles, a futuristic bow, or a lightsaber... please.

[Novak]

Don't you dare Bioware! That bow in arrow obsession must end. Especially when a bow and arrow does somehow more damage than a .50 cal!

 

 

EDIT:

If you need further proof:

skip to 1:32 if you just want to see the impact

[NKnight7]

I'd be fine with just more of ME3's weapons and combat.

[capn233]

I'd be fine with just more of ME3's weapons and combat.

 

As it pertains to clips vs pure overheat, I agree.

[katamuro]

I think they are simply going to modify the ME3 combat system. People liked it a lot and people still play multiplayer.

 

The way they modify it is the question. I think the best choice would be to combain the two systems. Leave the ammo counter with shots fired but also give it a time delay. 

So basically you get to have lets say 12 shots in a standard ammo clip in your pistol and the ammo counter says you have a total of 60 shots so 5 "clips". But instead of ejecting the thermal clip you get a system of "breakers". So imagine this. You shoot 12 shots and reload and it beeps/lights up/does something to tell you visually that one clip is gone and so on until all you hit 0. Then you can wait for it to cool down on its own or switch to another weapon. So the urgency of combat and the whole "dynamic" combat is preserved and you still have the weapon cooldown. Or introduce a third element, a forced cooling, you basically eject one of the internal thermal clips but that also lowers the amount of your total ammunition so 48 for first one, 36 for second one and so on, also increasing the weapon cooldown time. 

[Xen]

They can keep the sand grain blasters in both thermal clip and overheat forms, I just want a few guns that use conventional cartridges and magazines. They're bound to have some advantages in both external and internal ballistics due to the larger bullets. Don't give me that "antiquated" garbage. Loose powder and ball was standard for 5 centuries while the cartridge based automatic weapon has only been around for about 2 and a half by the time of the ME series. Hell, humans had only discovered the tech that made the sand grain guns possible around 30 years ago, meaning there should have been plenty of cartridge guns still lying around.

plus futuristic cartridge based slugthrowers usually look cooler.

Spoiler

Lancer and Avenger by contrast look like a fish and the Predator and Carnifex like they were carved by a child from a block of cheese. Don't even get me started on the idiotic ergonomics of most of the ME weapons, especially when you consider they are somehow used comfortably by multiple species with completely different sizes and bone structures. A turian or quarian shouldn't be able to get any accuracy out of a human or asari designed trigger and stock the same way they can't wear their armor, and vice versa, but they do (in fact the turian and quarian soldiers can use human weapons better than the humans themselves in MP). A krogan shouldn't even be able to hold a weapon from one of the smaller species properly, while their weapons should look like small caliber artillery pieces in the hands of a human. I'd like to see specific designs tailored to specific species, and more alien weapons in general rather than like 1 of each type per species (AR, Pistol, Shotgun etc) while the humans get a huge variety in all categories.

Also, more varied mods that actually have some benefits and tradeoffs in use, rather than slapping AP ammo, damage barrel and extended magazine as the optimal solution for everything. Where are the underbarrel grenade launchers or shotguns, even?

[Novak]

They can keep the sand grain blasters in both thermal clip and overheat forms, I just want a few guns that use conventional cartridges and magazines. They're bound to have some advantages in both external and internal ballistics due to the larger bullets. Don't give me that "antiquated" garbage. Loose powder and ball was standard for 5 centuries while the cartridge based automatic has only been around for around 2 and a half by the time of the original series. There is such thing as a mature technology.

plus futuristic cartridge based slugthrowers usually look cooler.

Spoiler

Lancer and Avenger by contrast look like a fish and the Predator like it was carved by a child from a block of cheese. Don't even get me started on the idiotic ergonomics of most of the ME weapons, especially when you consider they are somehow used comfortably by multiple species with completely different sizes and bone structures. A turian or quarian shouldn't be able to get any accuracy out of a human or asari designed trigger and stock the same way they can't wear their armor, and vice versa, but they do (in fact the turian and quarian soldiers can use human weapons better than the humans themselves in MP). I'd like to see specific designs tailored to specific species, and more alien weapons in general rather than like 1 of each type per species while the humans get a huge variety.

Also, more varied mods that actually have some benefits and tradeoffs in use, rather than slapping AP ammo, damage barrel and extended magazine as the optimal solution for everything. Where are the underbarrel grenade launchers or shotguns, even?

 

Honestly, I tried to calculate the actual impact force of those sand grain blasters but I couldn't find any info on the muzzle velocity so I gave up. But I calculated the force of a .50 cal fired by a m82 a1 with FMJ projectiles. Depending on the grain used and the actual weight of the projectile itself it ranges from 17,000 to 20.000 joules. Even if the speed of a grain is significantly higher I doubt actual damage to organ tissue is that high since the scattering factor is minimal and entry and exit wounds can't be that big. Plus I can't really see the benefits if you have to use thermal clips anyway. In contrast mechanical weapons have no electronics and can't be sabotaged through such measures (overload?)

[Killroy]

Environments being littered with Milky Way thermal clips and enemies dropping dropping them upon death would be really hard to accept. It would just be too stupid, and introducing an Andromedan equivalent that magically works with our Milky Way weapons would be equally stupid. It wouldn't make any sense for us to bring weapons that require a finite, manufactured part to function when there's already a superior alternative.

 

The only mechanic I can see working to emulate the ammo system(like thermal clips) would be some sort of external cooling system, like using your omnitool to rapidly chill your weapon's heatsink. Instead of waiting around and having the doofy "d'oh jeez, that's hot!" animation you would just quickly pop open your heatsink, activate your omnitool, get a little spray of chilled space magic, close the heatsink and get back to shooting.

[Laughing_Man]

I don't know about using actual chemical propellant, mainly because there might be some problems with using this ammo in different environments and in vacuum, and also when you have access to large quantities of power even in hand-held packages - you can build a rail-gun with much more power than you will ever get from the "antique" chemical propellant guns.

 

...But a rail gun that shoots real over-sized bullets, maybe explosive bullets? Yes please!

 

It makes more sense than sand grain blasters because of air friction, and should have a much more satisfying impact.

[katamuro]

I don't know about using actual chemical propellant, mainly because there might be some problems with using this ammo in different environments and in vacuum, and also when you have access to large quantities of power even in hand-held packages - you can build a rail-gun with much more power than you will ever get from the "antique" chemical propellant guns.

 

...But a rail gun that shoots real over-sized bullets, maybe explosive bullets? Yes please!

 

It makes more sense than sand grain blasters because of air friction, and should have a much more satisfying impact.

 

Actually there is no problem shooting guns in space, the cartridge has both the fuel and oxidiser, it has no need for air to burn. However in space the gun oil would freeze or evaporate, the recoil would be a huge problem and the heat buildup would pose significant problems.

 

Honestly, I tried to calculate the actual impact force of those sand grain blasters but I couldn't find any info on the muzzle velocity so I gave up. But I calculated the force of a .50 cal fired by a m82 a1 with FMJ projectiles. Depending on the grain used and the actual weight of the projectile itself it ranges from 17,000 to 20.000 joules. Even if the speed of a grain is significantly higher I doubt actual damage to organ tissue is that high since the scattering factor is minimal and entry and exit wounds can't be that big. Plus I can't really see the benefits if you have to use thermal clips anyway. In contrast mechanical weapons have no electronics and can't be sabotaged through such measures (overload?)

 

Actually yeah the whole idea of ME weapons shooting dust sized metallic particles at high enough speeds would not really do that much damage. There is a reason why hollowpoint and soft lead bullets are more damaging to the human body, if the bullet has enough energy and doesn't shatter on impact it would simply travel through the body and with dust sized bullets the wound would close pretty quickly and unless you hit something really vital(the head basically or the heart) then you would need to shoot a few dozen to make it fatal. 

 

It would have made more sense if the ME weapons actually had ammo instead, still accelerated by the mass effect coils to speeds higher than any chemical propellant could and still having the overheat issue(because higher speed=more friction so more heat).

[Laughing_Man]

Actually yeah the whole idea of ME weapons shooting dust sized metallic particles at high enough speeds would not really do that much damage. There is a reason why hollowpoint and soft lead bullets are more damaging to the human body, if the bullet has enough energy and doesn't shatter on impact it would simply travel through the body and with dust sized bullets the wound would close pretty quickly and unless you hit something really vital(the head basically or the heart) then you would need to shoot a few dozen to make it fatal.

 

Yeah, funnily enough I think that those grains are probably the most effective for stripping kinetic barriers, for everything else, just get a shotgun...

[Xen]

Actually there is no problem shooting guns in space, the cartridge has both the fuel and oxidiser, it has no need for air to burn. However in space the gun oil would freeze or evaporate, the recoil would be a huge problem and the heat buildup would pose significant problems.

I was going to answer Tzeenchian with this but you ninja'd me. Cosmonauts have been carrying chemical firearms into space for decades, and they supposedly work just fine. The Almaz stations even had conventional 23mm cannons on them which were successfully test fired. The only difference would be the shape of the smoke trail and much greater range because of the lack of gravity and air friction meaning bullets wouldn't drop or lose kinetic energy.

Lots of modern firearms can function without any lubricants at all (see AK family for the best example).The recoil wouldn't be any bigger of a problem than any other weapon type that is subject to Newton's 3rd law (which ME railguns are).

It's the same reason you can fire most modern firearms underwater, albiet the projectiles don't go much of anywhere because of the resistance of water is so much higher than air.

[Novak]

Actually there is no problem shooting guns in space, the cartridge has both the fuel and oxidiser, it has no need for air to burn. However in space the gun oil would freeze or evaporate, the recoil would be a huge problem and the heat buildup would pose significant problems.

 

 

Actually yeah the whole idea of ME weapons shooting dust sized metallic particles at high enough speeds would not really do that much damage. There is a reason why hollowpoint and soft lead bullets are more damaging to the human body, if the bullet has enough energy and doesn't shatter on impact it would simply travel through the body and with dust sized bullets the wound would close pretty quickly and unless you hit something really vital(the head basically or the heart) then you would need to shoot a few dozen to make it fatal. 

 

It would have made more sense if the ME weapons actually had ammo instead, still accelerated by the mass effect coils to speeds higher than any chemical propellant could and still having the overheat issue(because higher speed=more friction so more heat).

 

Well the heat is really only an issue if you Rail gun systems. Gauss systems have no friction and can therefore not overheat. Well there's still the factor of the energy source but I don't know. 

I know the damage factors that's why I said it Also I wouldn't really know how the ballistics are in Atmosphere's. I mean a 5.56 nato round has less stopping power but it's smaller and travels faster so it's more accurate and has a better range than something fired from an AK-47. But the lack of stopping power is even a problem with relatively big NATO rounds. It would be interesting to know if the higher velocity of the mass propelled sand grain would be enough to make it as precise as conventional cartridges (provided it's shot inside of an Atmosphere)

[capn233]

Honestly, I tried to calculate the actual impact force of those sand grain blasters but I couldn't find any info on the muzzle velocity so I gave up. But I calculated the force of a .50 cal fired by a m82 a1 with FMJ projectiles. Depending on the grain used and the actual weight of the projectile itself it ranges from 17,000 to 20.000 joules. Even if the speed of a grain is significantly higher I doubt actual damage to organ tissue is that high since the scattering factor is minimal and entry and exit wounds can't be that big. Plus I can't really see the benefits if you have to use thermal clips anyway. In contrast mechanical weapons have no electronics and can't be sabotaged through such measures (overload?)

 

The only muzzle velocity given in the series is for an alliance dreadnought's main gun at 3.9x10^6 m/s (or 0.013c).  Small arms are supposed to be much faster than modern day cartridge muzzle velocities, obviously.

 

They weren't thinking about clips when they went with the small size projectiles.

 

edit:

 

Also, whether this is believable or not, from codex on Mass Accelerator Weapons

 

The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage.

So they were at least aware of this.  It was mainly a way to explain infinite ammo though.

[Novak]

The only muzzle velocity given in the series is for an alliance dreadnought's main gun at 3.9x10^6 m/s (or 0.013c).  Small arms are supposed to be much faster than modern day cartridge muzzle velocities, obviously.

 

They weren't thinking about clips when they went with the small size projectiles.

 

edit:

 

Also, whether this is believable or not, from codex on Mass Accelerator Weapons

 

 

 

So they were at least aware of this.  It was mainly a way to explain infinite ammo though.

 

The forward gun of a modern destroyer fires it's slug at a muzzle velocity of 760 m/s and a M4a1 carbine has a muzzle velocity of 880 m/s. Sure it's faster but the difference is not that big, so I would think that the velocity of the grain sprayer isn't significantly higher either. So it's approximately 3.8 million meters a second. Now we only need the material to know the impact force, but there's still the problem of lacking size so damage is still minimal. You probably wouldn't even really feel it if the bullet went through your arm, I doubt nerves are able to pick up on something that small traveling that fast.

[Xen]

Honestly, I tried to calculate the actual impact force of those sand grain blasters but I couldn't find any info on the muzzle velocity so I gave up. But I calculated the force of a .50 cal fired by a m82 a1 with FMJ projectiles. Depending on the grain used and the actual weight of the projectile itself it ranges from 17,000 to 20.000 joules. Even if the speed of a grain is significantly higher I doubt actual damage to organ tissue is that high since the scattering factor is minimal and entry and exit wounds can't be that big. Plus I can't really see the benefits if you have to use thermal clips anyway. In contrast mechanical weapons have no electronics and can't be sabotaged through such measures (overload?)

Well, we do get the weight of at least 1 ME firearm (M-98 Widow is 39kg) and the weight of a typical sand grain (roughly 4.4mg) though we don't know the density of the materials that ME bullets are made from, so it could be higher. The recoil of that weapon is said to be at the limits of tolerance for the human bone structure (similar to some lightweight "elephant guns" firing massive cartridges like the .577 Tyrannosaur or .700 Nitro), so from that one could make a very rough estimate of free recoil number and convert it to kinetic energy. This is before accounting for fictional technologies like "kinetic dampening" systems or whatever, but suffice it to say that if a weapon that weighs 3x as much as a modern .50 BMG antimaterial rifle yet produces more recoil, it presumably produces much more kinetic energy (at least going by a passing application of Newton's 3rd law). 

However, this wouldn't help it kill anything any better if the projectile is incapable of transferring energy effectively or even retaining any energy at all past very short range, which a tiny projectile would have huge problems with (at least in atmosphere) due to the atrocious ballistic coefficient and inability to reach sufficient sectional densities for the projectiles themselves to even work without space magic materials being involved.

[JonathonPR]

I would go with the overheat mechanic for most weapons but limited ammunition for heavy weapons.

 

Ammo mods were specifically to address the fact that there is not a huge amount of trauma from the sand size projectiles. They have high penetration from the small size and high velocity. 

 

For weapons tech I would like to see more development of direct mass effect field propulsion. Shields can deflect a projectile and cancel out its effective mass. Nothing has to physically touch the inside of the barrel. The gun would create a cylindrical mono directional mass effect field that could extent beyond the physical gun. It could even be used to improve particle projectors. At that point it becomes more a matter of capacitors than heat.

[capn233]

The forward gun of a modern destroyer fires it's slug at a muzzle velocity of 760 m/s and a M4a1 carbine has a muzzle velocity of 880 m/s. Sure it's faster but the difference is not that big, so I would think that the velocity of the grain sprayer isn't significantly higher either. So it's approximately 3.8 million meters a second. Now we only need the material to know the impact force, but there's still the problem of lacking size so damage is still minimal. You probably wouldn't even really feel it if the bullet went through your arm, I doubt nerves are able to pick up on something that small traveling that fast.

 

Not sure what you mean by the difference is not so big...

 

760 m/s for modern destroyer

 

3,900,000 m/s for alliance dreadnought.  That is over 5000 times faster, and has drastically higher energy.

 

In any case, the reason everyone uses mass accelerator weapons is because kinetic barriers render chemical based cartridges obsolete.  They aren't supposed to be remotely competitive in energy.