104 réponses à ce sujet

[Novak]

Well, we do get the weight of at least 1 ME firearm (M-98 Widow is 39kg) and the weight of a typical sand grain (roughly 4.4mg) though we don't know the density of the materials that ME bullets are made from, so it could be higher. The recoil of that weapon is said to be at the limits of tolerance for the human bone structure (similar to some lightweight "elephant guns" firing massive cartridges like the .577 Tyrannosaur or .700 Nitro), so from that one could make a very rough estimate of free recoil number and convert it to kinetic energy. This is before accounting for fictional technologies like "kinetic dampening" systems or whatever, but suffice it to say that if a weapon that weighs 3x as much as a modern .50 BMG antimaterial rifle yet produces more recoil, it presumably produces much more kinetic energy (at least going by a passing application of Newton's 3rd law). 

However, this wouldn't help it kill anything any better if the projectile is incapable of transferring energy effectively or even retaining any energy at all past very short range, which a tiny projectile would have huge problems with due to the atrocious ballistic coefficient.

 

This has been a controversial topic in the physics community for a while now. According to Newton Rail Guns or Gauss Guns for that matter would have recoil and that would be the same amount of force as it is on the slug itself. Problem is now, they tried to measure Rail Guns recoil on US navy ships and as evidence would suggest they found none. I haven't found anything solid on why this is, some say it's not been properly measured others say the energy gets dissipated in some other form (name heat) If you wish to know more I'll find the corresponding articles again.

[Novak]

Not sure what you mean by the difference is not so big...

 

760 m/s for modern destroyer

 

3,900,000 m/s for alliance dreadnought.  That is over 5000 times faster, and has drastically higher energy.

 

In any case, the reason everyone uses mass accelerator weapons is because kinetic barriers render chemical based cartridges obsolete.  They aren't supposed to be remotely competitive in energy.

 

No I meant the difference between a handheld firearm and of one really big guns mounted on a ship. Of course the dreadnought difference is immense. 

 

But that still wouldn't address the issue of the grain sprayers loss of force when fired in an atmosphere. Not to mention the horrible ballistics.  

[DaemionMoadrin]

ME weapons are yet another part of the franchise that is unscientific. A lot has been pointed out already.

 

We have different kinds of ammo in ME3, but none of those could actually work if the projectiles were just tiny particles. You can't put a significant electric charge on something so small and expect it to retain it. It would probably melt instantly instead. Armor piercing rounds and Drill rounds make no sense with tiny particles either.

 

Several weapons shoot relatively large projectiles (Scorpion, Falcon), which by ME logic would have to be generated out of thin air. It would be better to use some kind of universal ammo clip that would allow the guns to fabricate their own bullets, maybe even explosive (sticky) grenades.

 

Not even going to mention the Typhoon, which spits out shell casings when fired. (Bravo, BioWare!)

 

Almost all weapons ingame behave like normal guns, so I don't see a reason why chemical based cartridges would be obsolete. If I can deplete kinetic barriers by hitting them with my hand, then guns of all kinds should work. Hell, the Talon Merc shoots Omni-Arrows and several enemies use chemical rockets that fly slow enough to evade.

 

Although at this point one has to question how kinetic barriers manage to block energy based weapons like the PPR or the CSR.

 

Another point: Sabotage overheats targeted guns. But since you have thermal clips, this shouldn't faze the target at all. Just reload and you're good to go again!

 

Anyway... what we had until now is a big mess that doesn't make much sense. It would be better if they used ME:A as a soft reboot for the franchise and came up with something that stands up to logic and common sense. Like, I don't know, using actual ammo clips.

[Xen]

In any case, the reason everyone uses mass accelerator weapons is because kinetic barriers render chemical based cartridges obsolete.  They aren't supposed to be remotely competitive in energy.

Yet the the Kishock Harpoon gun and Graal Spike Thrower launch large projectiles at literally bow and arrow slow speed velocities (you can follow the projectile with the naked eye very easily) that modern firearms could easily outmatch, yet they can defeat personal kinetic barriers.

The lore in this series is a crapshoot. Just put some "disruptors" or whatever (says it in the Kishock's description) or explosive payloads on my 7.62mm rounds and call it a day.

[Laughing_Man]

Yet the the Kishock Harpoon gun and Graal Spike Thrower launch large projectiles at literally bow and arrow slow speed velocities (you can follow the projectile with the naked eye very easily) that modern firearms could easily outmatch, yet they can defeat personal kinetic barriers.

The lore in this series is a crapshoot. Just put some "disruptors" or whatever (says it in the Kishock's description) or explosive payloads on my 7.62mm rounds and call it a day.

 

"Disruptors" are not some gel you slap on your ammo, it's supposedly a high tech weapon mod that a current generation weapon would never support.

 

And yeah, I wish they would stop introducing gameplay elements that crap all over existing lore, it makes the game feel schizophrenic.

[Novak]

One thing I'm certain of is that they should go back to the ME1 style weaponry and call it a day with that. Or let the guns reload actual metal slugs instead of silly thermal clips. And then simply call it a day, logically there's a lot of stuff wrong with ME but at this point I don't really care. Just slap a fat space magic sticker on there and done. I don't like the idea of a soft reboot. Video Game series get too many reboots as it is already. But if Bioware decides to reboot it, get a physics on the pay roll who figures things out for you. I'm sure a smart one could work in some of the E-zero elements in and make the stuff work. They could even release something like the physics of mass effect along with it. I'd buy that

 

EDIT: 

It wouldn't even be that much of a stretch lore wise to introduce slug based ammunition in the game. Just say that they developed a good heat sink which takes all the heat away but it replaced the metal block in the weapon. And now just say oh well the advantage is you can fire bigger rounds which carry a lot more kinetic energy. That would also have the advantages of easily manufactured ammunition. 

[capn233]

Yet the the Kishock Harpoon gun and Graal Spike Thrower launch large projectiles at literally bow and arrow slow speed velocities (you can follow the projectile with the naked eye very easily) that modern firearms could easily outmatch, yet they can defeat personal kinetic barriers.

The lore in this series is a crapshoot. Just put some "disruptors" or whatever (says it in the Kishock's description) or explosive payloads on my 7.62mm rounds and call it a day.

 

ME3 pushed further into rule of cool territory with liberties on the weapons.

 

Head canon whatever you want.  What would actually happen if you tried to use an AK in 2186 is that everyone with kinetic barriers would laugh at you when you emptied the mag to no effect, and then they would just get a Krogan to headbutt you.

[Novak]

ME3 pushed further into rule of cool territory with liberties on the weapons.

 

Head canon whatever you want.  What would actually happen if you tried to use an AK in 2186 is that everyone with kinetic barriers would laugh at you when you emptied the mag to no effect, and then they would just get a Krogan to headbutt you.

 

Care to show some calculation concerning the kinetic energy of sand grains?

[ZipZap2000]

This is all sorted out by not telling you anything.


I am your trainer.

?

Your trainer.

Odd title

That is what I am. I've taken the risk so you don't have to.

But rifts are new?

Yes we've studied them quickly so you don't have to.

?

I am your trainer.

[Laughing_Man]

I am your trainer.

?
 

 

This is hardly a ringing endorsement for DA:I, nor an example for quality story telling or lore-building.

[Seboist]

Semi-automatic rifles, a futuristic bow, or a lightsaber... please.

 

Should have a futuristic bolt action rifle that fires as fast as a lee enfield.

 

[ZipZap2000]

This is hardly a ringing endorsement for DA:I, nor an example for quality story telling or lore-building.

Believe it or not they pull it off well. You're too busy laughing at this chick who lost her memory and got a bunch of elves killed, which she's still proud of for some reason.

All you so you don't have to.

[Xen]

Care to show some calculation concerning the kinetic energy of sand grains?

somewhere much lower than being physically slapped by a gangly space zombie or hit by the elbow of justice, at least judging by the amount of shields depleted.

[DaemionMoadrin]

Should have a futuristic bolt action rifle that fires as fast as a lee enfield.

 

 

I doubt he hit anything at all shooting like that. ^^

[Seboist]

I doubt he hit anything at all shooting like that. ^^

 

Target was only 50 yards away tho.

[Novak]

somewhere much lower than being physically slapped by a gangly space zombie or hit by the elbow of justice, at least judging by the amount of shields depleted.

 

It's especially weird since it was stated in either the codex or the books that slow moving objects like that wouldn't even deflected by the shields.

[KaiserShep]

I think weapons should've just gone to non-projectile and be done with it. Bullets and tiny shards are so passe. 

 

Oh, and Chemrail. Biower plz. It's a symphony of carnage. There must be so many aliens in Andromeda that I could shred with this thing. 

 

[DaemionMoadrin]

Oh, and Chemrail. Biower plz. It's a symphony of carnage. There must be so many aliens in Andromeda that I could shred with this thing. 

 

 

Meh, the manga was much, much better. It sucked that they changed the protagonist from Alita to whoever Matt Damon was supposed to be.

[Novak]

I think weapons should've just gone to non-projectile and be done with it. Bullets and tiny shards are so passe. 

 

Oh, and Chemrail. Biower plz. It's a symphony of carnage. There must be so many aliens in Andromeda that I could shred with this thing. 

 

 

What are they even firing?

[Gileadan]

ME's weapons are ridiculously and uselessly over-engineered, since the main advantage from all that fancy stuff about scraping off shards from a condensed block of metal and using that as ammo is negated by the need to reload thermal clips anyway.  How about some variety instead?

 

Gauss rifles (magnetic accelerators)

standard solid projectile guns, using either conventional propellant or a binary gas mixture

laser rifles

plasma rifles

 

But I'm sure that train left the station a long time ago and we'll be stuck with variants of what we already have.

[KaiserShep]

Meh, the manga was much, much better. It sucked that they changed the protagonist from Alita to whoever Matt Damon was supposed to be.

 

Eh, I'm not concerned with the scene or Matt Damon, just the whirring deathstick that turned that guy's limbs into gazpacho.

 

 

What are they even firing?

Death. 

[laudable11]

I would like a energy-based battleaxe. Bigger, sharper, deadlier than lightsabers. Perfect for a space barbarian dude.

I want a double barrel pump shotgun!

[katamuro]

A bullet the weight of a grain would need to have a muzzle velocity of 8000 m/s to achieve the same kinetic energy as an AK-47 round. Considering that for significant damage against the shields and armour of ME universe you would need it to have quite a bit more energy the muzzle velocity would be much higher. And since 8000m/s is nearly 24 Mach(23.5 times the speed of sound) I would say that anything significantly higher than that would probably end up in the projectile itself becoming plasma from simple friction against air. I am not sure what kind of range it would have if any or if the plasma will stay together for any significant amount of time but so far it seems that the whole grain-bullet thing is not workable. 

 

Chemrail is a combination of electromagnetic rail technology and standard chemically accelerated rounds. Hence the CHEMRAIL designation. Requires less energy since you have the initial boost from the propellant burning up with additional boost given by the railgun.

[katamuro]

Meh, the manga was much, much better. It sucked that they changed the protagonist from Alita to whoever Matt Damon was supposed to be.

 

I don't think Elysium was supposed to be Battle Angel Alita in any way. IF you are talking about that Alita. 

[capn233]

Care to show some calculation concerning the kinetic energy of sand grains?

Honestly it shouldn't be necessary; the conclusion that modern weapons aren't comparable to the fictional tech in ME basically follows from them stating it in the codex.  Obviously any calculation is going to be based on some amount of conjecture, since Bioware was not writing a physics textbook.  And this is fake-science.

 

***

 

Grain of sand volume: 6.2x10^-11 m^3 [1]

 

Tungsten density: 19250 kg/m^3 [2]

 

Stand in bullet mass: 1.2x10^-6 kg

 

Muzzle velocity: 3.9x10^6 m/s

 

KE = 0.5*m*v^2

 

= 0.5*(1.2x10^-6)*(3.9x10^6)^2 = 9.1x10^6 J, aka 9.1 megajoules, or about 500 times more energy than 50BMG, or 4000 times more than 7.62x39.

 

Similar to the 9MJ railgun in Austin.