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Solas & Humans


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#1
Bayonet Hipshot

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I have a thought.

 

What if the birth of Humanity was due to the Veil ? What if the slow reduction of magic and the sundering of the Fade caused Humans to exist ?

 

The records we have say that the first humans quite late into Thedas, far after Solas has created the Veil. The first Elves to encounter them were the remnants of the destruction of the Elvhen empire. We do not have any indications or hints of humans or proto-humans existing before the Veil.

 

In a way, doesn't this make Solas the creator of humanity ? Not directly but indirectly since the sundering of the Fade and the real world was his doing ?

 

I know the Maker either doesn't exist or is a powerful Spirit of Faith or the Sun God from ancient Elven legends but technically speaking, shouldn't Solas be the Maker since his actions resulted in the creation, spread and domination of humanity ?

 

What do you think ?



#2
straykat

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Hey, another Solas thread.

 

It would be better if this was about romance too.

 

In all seriousness, there's no definitive answer to this. Might as well say the Maker is a Nug if you want.


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#3
thats1evildude

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I'm pretty sure humans migrated to Thedas. They eventually conquered the continent because they were more adaptable to a low-magic setting than the elves.
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#4
Ashagar

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Humans did indeed migrate from elsewhere as did the later Qunari. There are also references to the fact apparently one of the god kings got their jollies by hunting the mortal tribes for sport which isn't surprising given by going by the lore so far the elven god kings made the ancient Tevinter Magisters look nice in comparison.



#5
Illegitimus

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I have a thought.

 

What if the birth of Humanity was due to the Veil ? What if the slow reduction of magic and the sundering of the Fade caused Humans to exist ?

 

The records we have say that the first humans quite late into Thedas, far after Solas has created the Veil. 

 

 

When did Solas create the Veil?  



#6
Gervaise

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According to World of Thedas 1, humans first arrived in Thedas around -3100 ancient, although some scholars dispute this.   Then in -2850 ancient, some 250 years later the elves first start to notice the quickening, ending their immortality.   So it would seem that the Veil was raised after the first appearance of the humans but close enough to it for the elves to make a connection between the human arrival and their loss of immortality.   Then in -2800 ancient you have the first account of the Old Gods whispering to the Dreamers of the Neromenian tribes.  

 

The Dalish legends state that the humans first appeared in the north, and the old legends of the native humans of Seheron talk of their ancestors being taught at the feet of the elves, so that would suggest there was some friendly interaction in the early years, before the elves withdrew from contact.


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#7
caradoc2000

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When did Solas create the Veil?  

He doesn't say it exactly, but you can extrapolate something from the timeline as Gervaise pointed out in the above post. He does say that the ancient elves lost their immortality as a result.



#8
berelinde

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I find myself wondering if the raising of the Veil caused the humans to seek out new lands. Maybe their old homes became inhospitable and they were motivated to leave? Maybe they saw new things that enhanced natural curiosity? I don't expect answers here, but the possibilities encompass more than "Humans showed up and the neighborhood went to shiite."



#9
Medhia_Nox

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@berelinde:  Or, I find it more likely that after the Veil went up (or became strengthened... I'm very skeptical that Solas made the Veil) the world was less of a sh-thole and allowed for natural migration.


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#10
Ashagar

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From what I gather the humans showed up in at least two waves, the Neromenians arrived in the north along with the belief in the of the entity andraste would later call the maker and encountered the elves and then later Alamarri tribes later migrated out of the distant west into southern Thadas after apparently fleeing something.

 

Some sort of powerful spirit or demon though i believe the avvar called it a goddess in their myths though we don't really know what the other tribes of the alamarri like the chassend and the fore bearers of the Fereldens thought it was.



#11
berelinde

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@Medhia_Nox: I'm not going to dispute that because we'll never know, but how would the raising of a barrier between the mortal and the spiritual allow for natural migration? Was the more spiritual, co-mingled world hostile to natural migratory patterns? I'm not asking out of sarcasm, ironically. I'm actually intensely curious about the differences between a Fade-state reality and a divided one, and I'm curious about meta theories regarding it.

 

I tend to see barriers as, well, barriers, not doorways, but I will allow that it's possible that a free ethereal world state closed off purely physical realms. I'm just having a hard time with the visuals, and I'd appreciate any kind of mental image that would clarify it. Again, I say that without sarcasm.

 

FWIW, I like the Veil. I like keeping spirits/demons on one side, mortals on the other. I favor anything that doesn't wipe out life on Thedas as the Inquisitor knows it. So yeah, I'm opposed to tearing down the Veil, but I am curious about what is on the other side. As long as it doesn't endanger ALL OF EFFING CREATION. Point made? Probably.



#12
greenbrownblue

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I have a thought.

 

What if the birth of Humanity was due to the Veil ? What if the slow reduction of magic and the sundering of the Fade caused Humans to exist ?

 

The records we have say that the first humans quite late into Thedas, far after Solas has created the Veil. The first Elves to encounter them were the remnants of the destruction of the Elvhen empire. We do not have any indications or hints of humans or proto-humans existing before the Veil.

 

In a way, doesn't this make Solas the creator of humanity ? Not directly but indirectly since the sundering of the Fade and the real world was his doing ?

 

I know the Maker either doesn't exist or is a powerful Spirit of Faith or the Sun God from ancient Elven legends but technically speaking, shouldn't Solas be the Maker since his actions resulted in the creation, spread and domination of humanity ?

 

What do you think ?

Try to find some codex entries or dialogues to support this idea. Perhaps you will find sth more if you do research - especially in the Chantry's history/poems/song/prayers or w/e. Personally, I do not really recall any info that would confirm it or at least allow us further speculation :/ ...
If that helps you, there is a conversation between Solas and Cassandra about Solas not dismissing the Maker's existence................. So.............. Maybe there is point in digging into Chantry stuff in order to find more about humans? Hope I helped. Here is the vid with that dialogue.

 



#13
greenbrownblue

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Hey, another Solas thread.

 

It would be better if this was about romance too.

 

In all seriousness, there's no definitive answer to this. Might as well say the Maker is a Nug if you want.

We gotta kill time until DA4, so why not?


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#14
Dai Grepher

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Abelas states that the humans came long after the elvhen fell and picked the bones clean.

 

Vivienne makes the point that there couldn't have been a time when the Veil wasn't there, otherwise humans would have historical documentation of it.

 

I don't think Solas created the Veil. I think he just discovered it and found out how to move it to fill the areas where the Fade and the Real intersected.

 

I think Abelas and Vivienne's statements imply that the humans came from a part of the world where the Veil existed, but only after Solas brought the Veil into the elvhen parts of the world. So for humans it's as if the Veil was always there.



#15
Ghost Gal

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No, the history books say that humans were around and trading and co-exting with elves for centuries before the elves experienced the Quickening. Since we know now that the Veil going up is what caused the Quickening, humans were around before the Veil went up. 



#16
Dai Grepher

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@Medhia_Nox: I'm not going to dispute that because we'll never know, but how would the raising of a barrier between the mortal and the spiritual allow for natural migration? Was the more spiritual, co-mingled world hostile to natural migratory patterns? I'm not asking out of sarcasm, ironically. I'm actually intensely curious about the differences between a Fade-state reality and a divided one, and I'm curious about meta theories regarding it.

 

I tend to see barriers as, well, barriers, not doorways, but I will allow that it's possible that a free ethereal world state closed off purely physical realms. I'm just having a hard time with the visuals, and I'd appreciate any kind of mental image that would clarify it. Again, I say that without sarcasm.

 

FWIW, I like the Veil. I like keeping spirits/demons on one side, mortals on the other. I favor anything that doesn't wipe out life on Thedas as the Inquisitor knows it. So yeah, I'm opposed to tearing down the Veil, but I am curious about what is on the other side. As long as it doesn't endanger ALL OF EFFING CREATION. Point made? Probably.

 

There is probably a point to where the real world stops making sense and dangerous things happen. Such as lack of gravity, or no ground, no oxygen, or maybe just demons roaming around.

 

Origins and Awakening demonstrated some types of barriers. The Bracilian Forest had a fog that always turned you around unless you had werewolf skins or the staff from the Grand Oak. The Blackmarsh had actual Veil barriers that physically blocked you, and you could see desire demons on the other side. The Circle Tower also had... hemorrhoids growing out of everything.

 

I imagine this as like a 3D border that passes through the ground and the sky. Sort of like the Breach, only cleaner and more crisp?



#17
Dai Grepher

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No, the history books say that humans were around and trading and co-exting with elves for centuries before the elves experienced the Quickening. Since we know now that the Veil going up is what caused the Quickening, humans were around before the Veil went up. 

 

That's just a Dalish legend about how the shemlen gave the ancient elves the quickening.
 



#18
Jedi Master of Orion

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There's no timeframe provided for when Solas created the Veil, but since Vivienne comments that human history has no record of such a time, I personally think the implication is that he did so long before humans arrived on the continent. 



#19
Ashagar

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Of course its also possible there were records but the records didn't survive, information could have been lost during the unification of Tevinter, burned by religious fanatics, destroyed during the first blight, destroyed by the qunari, simply lost to the ravages of time or all of the above.



#20
Medhia_Nox

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@berelinde:  Well, let's look at the world of Thedas we had in DA:O - then the world of Thedas we had in DA:I - then touch on the "future" world of Thedas we were shown in our time traveling exploits.

 

1)  DA:O has a more "down to earth" world where spirits are responsible for all of those familiar superstition tropes like:  "Oh, the crops failed... must be a witch!"  or "We leave a sacrifice of rabbit out to appease the black wolf, so our children can be safe."  Etc. etc.

 

2) In DA:I we have the Fade spewing angry/confused demons/spirits into the world.  You can't walk two feet without tripping over a rift.

 

3)  In the time travel future Solas (if you bring him) confirms that Corypheus managed to tear down the Veil.  That world is pretty plainly a "hell on earth" scenario.

 

So... even suggesting that the spirits/demons of a non-fade world weren't ripped from the fade and angry/confused (like in DA:I) it's very likely that demons would have been terrifying entities in a non-Veil world... while spirits did what they do now... work from the shadows. 

 

Any place NOT Elvhenan was probably pretty wild and savage... think something like Transylvania in the Dracula mythology... a haunted place where people huddle inside at night fearful of what haunts the world. 

 

I imagine there was very little "migration" at this time... more like... "huddled for safety and travel under duress."

But sure, I could also just be making all that up - but it makes sense from what I've seen in game.



#21
Aren

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I'm pretty sure humans migrated to Thedas. They eventually conquered the continent because they were more adaptable to a low-magic setting than the elves.

Or more likely because the elves were too busy to kill themselves.



#22
Gervaise

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I suppose it all comes down to how much credence you give to the timeline given in the World of Thedas.   What is the point of having a source book if you can't at least given some validity to what is contained there.   Accord to WoT Arlathan was founded some 3000 years before the arrival of humans in Thedas and this is well before any recorded history so difficult to pinpoint the exact time.   However, an alternative calendar has it being founded some 3000 years before the first contact with dwarves and around 4500 years before the first contact with humans.     So clearly the elves were around for a long time without any humans.  

 

If we assume the first contact with dwarves was connected to the war with the Titans, then this was some time before the appearance of humans.    Both the timeline and the calendar have the humans first appearing some 1500 years after the contact with dwarves.   If the war that Solas talks about that gave rise to the evanuris as generals, leaders, kings and finally gods, was the battle with the Titans, then that gives you a fix with regard to them.   

 

Abelas talks about humans falling on the corpse of the elven empire but that doesn't mean there were no humans around before this occurred, simply they weren't strong enough to threaten the elves.   Also there are two separate events, many years apart, concerning the rise of the humans.    The first contact between the old gods and the Neromenian dreamers was only some 300 years after the first arrival of humans in Thedas.  What is odd about this is that if Solas had raised the Veil only a few years before, it seems strange that the human mages were now more sensitive to speakers from the Fade rather than less.   So it seems to me that shutting away the evanuris allowed these other "gods" to interact freely with the world, having previously been prevented from doing so.    Since the old gods were imprisoned on the material side of the Veil, then I suppose this makes sense as the magic that kept them from being heard had been muted.

 

However, the final destruction of Arlathan by the Tevinter Imperium wasn't for another 1900 years.    I'm surprised that Abelas would even be aware of this considering much of the time he was napping in Uthenera down in the Arbor Wilds, whilst Arlathan Forest was up in northern Tevinter.    So whatever Abelas was talking about had to have been connected with the earlier time just after the raising of the Veil, when the elves were confused and leaderless and the realms of the evanuris in chaos.     Dorian says the pictures of the dreamers with foci (orbs) was depicting a pre-Tevinter period, so it would seem that the Neromenian dreamers took advantage of the chaos to step in and steal a number of elven artefacts and this helped their rise to power as much as their use of blood magic did.   My own personal theory is that these early humans had mated (raped) elf women they came across and the resulting elf blooded children were the first dreamers, which is why the old bloodlines of the dreamers were considered superior in later Tevinter.     Elves, like mages, have magic in the blood and are preferred for use in magical experiment and blood sacrifice over standard humans.        

 

Whatever the case, it seems highly unlikely that humans came about as a result of the raising/strengthening of the Veil by Solas but the events surrounding this event may well have given rise to the first human mages.


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#23
Dai Grepher

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The first contact between the old gods and the Neromenian dreamers was only some 300 years after the first arrival of humans in Thedas.  What is odd about this is that if Solas had raised the Veil only a few years before, it seems strange that the human mages were now more sensitive to speakers from the Fade rather than less.   So it seems to me that shutting away the evanuris allowed these other "gods" to interact freely with the world, having previously been prevented from doing so.    Since the old gods were imprisoned on the material side of the Veil, then I suppose this makes sense as the magic that kept them from being heard had been muted.

 

I think it was said somewhere that the old god dragons roamed Tevinter cities in the flesh. So there was a time when the dragons communicated directly. After they were imprisoned they began communicating through dreams from the Fade. The Veil didn't seem to matter to them.


Modifié par Dai Grepher, 25 janvier 2016 - 12:08 .


#24
Ashagar

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I think the human dreamers might have existed before the encounters with the elves. Given how powerful current dreamers(Solas, the dreamer from DA2) seem to be even with the veil existing such mages would have been a great source of protection to both normal mages and non-magical humans who likely would have turned to them for protection leading them to become quite important and at least human tribal groups like the Neromenians rise to become tribal and clan leaders.


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#25
greenbrownblue

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Abelas states that the humans came long after the elvhen fell and picked the bones clean.

 

Vivienne makes the point that there couldn't have been a time when the Veil wasn't there, otherwise humans would have historical documentation of it.

 

I don't think Solas created the Veil. I think he just discovered it and found out how to move it to fill the areas where the Fade and the Real intersected.

 

I think Abelas and Vivienne's statements imply that the humans came from a part of the world where the Veil existed, but only after Solas brought the Veil into the elvhen parts of the world. So for humans it's as if the Veil was always there.

Hum, do u have any link to that conversation between Abelas and Vivienne?