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[Dai Grepher]

It isn't between them. Abelas states the humans came after Arlathan already fell. Have Dorian with you for extra dialog.

 

Then in Trespasser Vivienne makes a point after hearing the second spirit in the Vir Dirthara talk about Fen'Harel creating the Veil. She states that if there was a time when the Veil didn't exist, there would be human history about it.

 

So my theory is that the humans lived in a part of the world where the Veil existed and separated the Fade and the Real. Then Solas closed off the elvhen parts of the world from the Fade by bringing the Veil in to those areas. This allowed the humans to migrate to these lands and discover the remains of the elvhen empire.

[Gervaise]

Can you tell me where you saw the information that the old dragon gods actually walked the streets of Tevinter?  I've got both source books and read all the codices in the games and I don't recall this anywhere.     If they walked the streets of Tevinter this would mean they were around very late on in history.   That makes it seem odd that Corypheus should declare about Dumat "If you ever truly existed help me now," because the gods had been visible during recorded history.

 

I assumed that the old gods had always spoken from the Fade from the first contact right through until the time of the Imperium but they were thought of as dragons because it is likely they put such images in the leaders' minds and also because there was a memory of a time in early human history when dragons did rule the skies (they were the evanuris or some other spirit/god, like Hakkon).    Plus if the old gods were still free at the time of the founding of Tevinter and later, who imprisoned them?   The human tribes stopped worshipping the Maker (if they ever did - the assertion of such a link is only found in the Chant) back in the time of the Neromenian dreamers, so if the Maker was responding to such usurping of his role by the old gods he would surely have done so then rather than 1000-1500 years later.  

 

Of course if the old gods were simply spirit/dragons like Hakkon, then it would have been possible for a powerful mage (or mages) to trap them as Ameridan did Hakkon.   However, who was around at the time of Tevinter who would have had sufficient magical expertise and incentive to imprison them all at once?   Also where do the Kossith fit into the equation?   Clearly any introduction of dragon blood into their race must have occurred long before the Qunari breeding programs because of the link between the Kossith arriving in southern Thedas and ogres subsequently being found among the darkspawn.

 

I wouldn't read too much into what Vivienne says about human history.    Dorian says that Tevinter has been suppressing the truth for years, particularly with regard to elven legends, in the Descent we learn that the Shapers have been doing the same with regard to dwarven history and throughout the Dragon Age series we have had evidence of how the Chantry have suppressed, altered and erased history to suit their own political aims and propaganda.  Solas' version of events does not really fit with the Chant at all.    Solas raised the Veil at the very beginning of human occupation of Thedas, so it is hardly surprising there is no record of it either because humans at the time were not aware of what occurred (because they didn't have mages among them until after the raising of the Veil) or subsequently their leaders chose to erase the knowledge.    After all, Dorian wasn't aware of what really happened with regard to the elven empire until Abelas told him, so why should Vivienne be any different with regard to the Veil?

 

I sure hope the next game starts to fill in the gaps with regard to human legends/history seeing as they have got rid of much of the mystery surrounding both the dwarf and elven history.  

[In Exile]

It isn't between them. Abelas states the humans came after Arlathan already fell. Have Dorian with you for extra dialog.

 

Then in Trespasser Vivienne makes a point after hearing the second spirit in the Vir Dirthara talk about Fen'Harel creating the Veil. She states that if there was a time when the Veil didn't exist, there would be human history about it.

 

So my theory is that the humans lived in a part of the world where the Veil existed and separated the Fade and the Real. Then Solas closed off the elvhen parts of the world from the Fade by bringing the Veil in to those areas. This allowed the humans to migrate to these lands and discover the remains of the elvhen empire.

 

The Abelas reference is to Tevinter (or their predecessor). He's a racist, so he doesn't bother distinguishing between what humans, but based on human accounts, the people he's referring to had already been on Thedas a while. 

[greenbrownblue]

The Abelas reference is to Tevinter (or their predecessor). He's a racist, so he doesn't bother distinguishing between what humans, but based on human accounts, the people he's referring to had already been on Thedas a while. 

Yeah, there are notes in brecilian ruins saying that humans and elves coexisted, so they prolly were there. Also, I do not recall on what occasion, but I feel like Anruil or someone used to hunt "lesser races"... Not sure of it tho.

[Ashagar]

Anruil is referenced as hunting mortal tribes, which given as far as we know only the elves were immortal before the veil is a likely reference to mortal races such as tthe humans who were tribal at that time and likely the Kossith as well as the dwarves lived underground in thaigs serving the titans.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Ancient Elves were also sometimes described as being "mortal" depending on the context.

[Gervaise]

I'm pretty sure the humans had been around for a while before the raising of the Veil and had also started to spread across the continent.    The reason for this assertion is that subsequently there were numerous human tribes of barbarians but only one group, the original Neromenians, from whom all the others were said to have come, seemed to benefit from the fall of the elven empire subsequent to the raising of the Veil.   They quickly became the dominant group, had superior magic and advanced their civilisation rapidly compared with the rest.  

 

I now have a theory that the nexus of the elven empire was in the north and that Arlathan did not stand in the forest of that name but was actually on the site now occupied by Minrathous.   The Golden City of the Fade was the bit of Arlathan that was trapped there, whilst the bit on the material side was damaged in much the same way that the other structures were that we see traversing the Crossroads.   The Neromenians took advantage of the chaos following the raising of the Veil and with the aid of the old gods whispering from the Golden City, succeeded in occupying the ruins of Arlathan, using the artefacts and magic there to improve their position in the world.   Minrathous is a very remarkable place since in its entire history it is claimed it has never fallen.    It has some amazing magical structures and connections with the Deep Roads.    It is actually built on an island, rather as the inner sanctum of the Temple of Mythal was.   Its inhabitants became dominant force across Thedas during ancient times with an empire built entirely on powerful magic, yet it seems amazing that their knowledge could have outstripped that of everyone else so quickly if it was solely dependent on dialogue with creatures of the Fade, bearing in mind that everyone would have had access to the same sources.   Why were dreamers apparently only found among their ranks?  Also we have never been given a definitive date for the founding of Minrathous but it was already in existence back in the time Thalsian, even though he could not occupy its throne since this was the time of separate kingdoms and Minrathous would have been the capital of Tevinter, while he was a priest in Neromenian.   He is sometimes called the first dreamer but I think it is more accurate to say he was the first dreamer to use blood magic since the timeline claims the first dreamers actually existed some 1300 years before he did, back in the period just after the elves first felt the Quickening.

 

The other thing that makes me think this, is the focus of whatever being gave visions to both Andraste and Drakon had on conquering Minrathous.     In Drakon's vision of the return of the Maker, the culmination is Andraste standing before the gates of Minrathous and declaring divine forgiveness.    Which is odd, because while Drakon was convinced he had to spread the Chant of Light, at this point Tevinter had already adopted the Maker as their official religion and was not to fall out with the Orlesian Chantry for another 300 years, so why the focus on Minrathous?   Okay it was the place where Andraste died but could it also be because it was the original source of magic in the material world?

[Dai Grepher]

Can you tell me where you saw the information that the old dragon gods actually walked the streets of Tevinter?  I've got both source books and read all the codices in the games and I don't recall this anywhere.     If they walked the streets of Tevinter this would mean they were around very late on in history.   That makes it seem odd that Corypheus should declare about Dumat "If you ever truly existed help me now," because the gods had been visible during recorded history.

 

I assumed that the old gods had always spoken from the Fade from the first contact right through until the time of the Imperium but they were thought of as dragons because it is likely they put such images in the leaders' minds and also because there was a memory of a time in early human history when dragons did rule the skies (they were the evanuris or some other spirit/god, like Hakkon).    Plus if the old gods were still free at the time of the founding of Tevinter and later, who imprisoned them?   The human tribes stopped worshipping the Maker (if they ever did - the assertion of such a link is only found in the Chant) back in the time of the Neromenian dreamers, so if the Maker was responding to such usurping of his role by the old gods he would surely have done so then rather than 1000-1500 years later.  

 

Of course if the old gods were simply spirit/dragons like Hakkon, then it would have been possible for a powerful mage (or mages) to trap them as Ameridan did Hakkon.   However, who was around at the time of Tevinter who would have had sufficient magical expertise and incentive to imprison them all at once?   Also where do the Kossith fit into the equation?   Clearly any introduction of dragon blood into their race must have occurred long before the Qunari breeding programs because of the link between the Kossith arriving in southern Thedas and ogres subsequently being found among the darkspawn.

 

I wouldn't read too much into what Vivienne says about human history.    Dorian says that Tevinter has been suppressing the truth for years, particularly with regard to elven legends, in the Descent we learn that the Shapers have been doing the same with regard to dwarven history and throughout the Dragon Age series we have had evidence of how the Chantry have suppressed, altered and erased history to suit their own political aims and propaganda.  Solas' version of events does not really fit with the Chant at all.    Solas raised the Veil at the very beginning of human occupation of Thedas, so it is hardly surprising there is no record of it either because humans at the time were not aware of what occurred (because they didn't have mages among them until after the raising of the Veil) or subsequently their leaders chose to erase the knowledge.    After all, Dorian wasn't aware of what really happened with regard to the elven empire until Abelas told him, so why should Vivienne be any different with regard to the Veil?

 

I sure hope the next game starts to fill in the gaps with regard to human legends/history seeing as they have got rid of much of the mystery surrounding both the dwarf and elven history.  

 

Ah... nope. It appears I may have been mistaken. I thought I had read something about Urthemiel being worshiped in the flesh during a holiday or Razikale residing in Minrathous' Circle, but I probably misread these. I looked it up and it said Urthemiel was worshiped, but didn't say he was physically there. I thought I saw something about them walking the streets, but maybe I'm misremembering or maybe the text referred to normal dragons.

 

In any case, I found something about when the old gods were imprisoned underground, and this came long before Tevinter was founded. Then Dumat whispered to some Archon, taught him bloodmagic, and then he either took over Tevinter or founded it. So it seems the old gods couldn't have possibly walked Tevinter in the flesh. Sorry for the incorrect statement.

 

As for Corypheus, he knew for a fact that Dumat existed. I think his statements are either due to his mind being so far gone, or he meant the statement to be directed toward Dumat's alleged divinity. Like, if you ever truly existed as a god, then aid me.

 

It seems they spoke through the Fade by the time Tevinter was established, but the Chantry account does say that humans worshiped the old gods in the flesh. I supposed I mixed these two things together. The people who worshiped them in the flesh were probably the Neromenians, which predated Tevinter.

 

Vivienne is knowledgeable. She confirms that no human history documents a time when the Veil did not exist. Only the Chant of Light states there was a time when only the Fade existed, and then the Maker created the Real from the Fade as well as the Veil to keep them apart. However, it is possible that human history did account for such a state, and those records were lost.

 

Dorian says the Magisters weren't interested in preserving elven history of any kind aside from the magical information they could use. But in any case, Vivienne is talking about human history. Elven writings wouldn't factor into it.

 

It's doubtful that there were no human mages until the Veil was created. Why would the Veil, which cuts off magic, cause mages to be created?

 

Dorian, along with the rest of Tevinter, assumed that the ancient Magisters conquered the elves, and their basis for believing this is what the Magisters had to say about it as well as the fact that they were able to claim the elves' magic for themselves.

 

I'm sure it will. I just hope it's well written. I don't have a lot of confidence in Weekes' ability to come up with a good plot. He seems good at writing dialog, but not creating plots.

[rapscallioness]

Hey guys, it's getting pretty late for me, and I;m getting sleepy. But I wanted to put some things here that I've come across kinda recently even though I'm not going to get into it all yet. (Once agian thanks to DragonAgeWikia for making it easier for me to source.)

 

Anyway, uh, yeah..the Thedas Elves and the Evanuris may not be the same thing--they also may have been considered, or referred to as "mortals" too. I say this because of this Song to June:

 

"We dedicate all our crafts to June, for it is he who taught the People to bend the branches of trees to make our bows, and to fashion coverings of furs and ironbark. Without June, would we have the aravel, or the harnesses for our halla?

 

When the People were young, we wandered the forests without purpose. We drank from streams and ate the berries and nuts that we could find. We did not hunt, for we had no bows. We wore nothing, for we had no knowledge of spinning or needlecraft. We shivered in the cold nights, and went hungry though the winters, when all the world was covered in ice and snow.

 

Then Sylaise the Hearthkeeper came, and gave us fire and taught us how to feed it with wood. June taught us to fashion bows and arrows and knives, so that we could hunt. We learned to cook the flesh of the creatures we hunted over Sylaise's fire, and we learned to clothe ourselves in their furs and skins. And the People were no longer cold and hungry.

—As told by Gisharel, Keeper of the Ralaferin clan of the Dalish elves"

 

It seems to me the Thedas Elves were there before the Evanuris came. And keeping in mind that the Evanuris are shapeshifters, they may have changed their appearance to be more... accepted by the natural Elves of Thedas. Or not to scare them with their visage.

 

Just a thought.

 

As far as humans there's this little bit which may have some early human clue. It's the bit regarding Astrariums:

 

"Regarding your inquiry regarding the so-called "astrariums," it is our considered belief that these are relics from a cult that existed in the pre-Andrastian era of the Tevinter Imperium. Now, what would be considered a cult in a society that worshipped the Old Gods? An order of magisters who believed in the destruction of the Magisterium, the governing body of the Imperium that determines which mages are and are not given the "magister" title.

 

The members of this order wished to return to an earlier period where Dreamers ruled, and evidence indicates they operated throughout Tevinter, though primarily in the frontier areas. There they would lock away their secrets, caches of treasure, and perhaps even secret meeting places (though we have no way of knowing for certain), unlockable only through knowledge of ancient astronomy—a practice that was, we understand, rather out of fashion in the late Tevinter period.

 

According to our investigations, each of the astrariums could point to the secret cache if one knew the three constellations that mapped to each device present at the site. Connect the dweomers in the correct configuration, and it would be revealed. Many of these relics were sought out by Andrastian cultists in the early Divine Age (the Order of Fiery Promise in particular) and destroyed. Why? Because they believed the astrariums held together the Veil, and that destroying them would destroy the Veil and thus the world. Such is the way of cults of any kind that the true reasons for what they do could never truly be understood by modern minds.

—From a letter written by Magister Pelidanus, head"

 

So, we know that the pre-Tevinter time was ruled by Dreamers, and it was pre Tevinter humans that worshipped the entity now called the Maker. There was an active cult pushing for this, and maybe Andraste was influenced by this belief. Or maybe she was pulling for this cult the whole time. Perhaps not  divine revelation on a mountain, but rather an orchestrated usurpation within the context of a civil war. And most of Andraste;s success was actually frontier locales. Ofc, it's easier to conquer those than the hub of the empire. Still interesting to me.

 

I also think the "Saga of Tyrdda Bright Axe" Avvar Mother is worth studying. It's got some very interesting verbiage. It's 8 stanzas, so I'm not copying it here. But a few bits:

 

1. "Tell the tale of Tyrdda Bright-Axe, mountain maker,
spirit's bride:
Free, her people, forged in fastness, made in
mountains, hardy hide.
Wise in wisdom, calm in counsel, great in gifts her
grateful guests,
Sacrificed she did to spirits, took their teachings,
followed quests.
Bright her axe, unbreaking crystal, stirred to flame
when temper flies,
Gifted from her leaf-eared lover, laughing lady of the
skies.
Bested blades of all who tried,
Maiden, spurning all requests,
Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Dreamer's Eyes.
Avvar-Mother, of her making.

 

2. Thelm Gold-Handed, fingers greasy, jeweled rings
with glitter shone,
Took in tribes in times of trouble, fed them fat to
weaken bone.
Warriors great and great in number, sun-kissed
swords to fight his wars,
Drake-scaled shirts their bodies covered, heart-wine
stained the salty shores.
Told his tribes a tale of treasure, over sea to north
it gleamed,
Whispered words to drive the droves to golden city
where he dreamed.
Counseled quick in dreams alone,
Voices wiser man ignores,
Pushed the tribes until they screamed,
Heed the dreams and cross the Waking."

 

There seems to be 3 main characters. Tyrdda; this Thelm Gold-Handed guy;a Leaf Eared lover and laughing lady of the sky--although I think the leaf eared lover and the lady of the sky are the same person. ?? But all three, or two seem to be encouraging Tyrdda to take her tribe and:

 

"Bright the ax of leaf-eared lover, laughing lady of the skies:

Fire flares as Thelm Gold-Handed, honey-tongued,
repeats his lies.
"North to warmth, and golden cities,
Whispers speak in Dreamers' ears!"
Silver scorched, the liar flies
On raven's beaks, to dream unwaking."

 

(Had to post this 7th stanza:)

 

"Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Dwarf-Friend Chieftain, with her
leaf-eared lover lay,
Woke she did to love-sweat morning, lover gone in
light of day.
Dream-words whispered, spoken soft, still the silence
crushed and crashing,
Dead her tribe, unless a child could keep her line in
warrior fashion.
Aval'var, so named the lover, called "our journey,
yours and mine,"
One day child of Tyrdda's blood, Morrighan'nan, in
strength must shine.
Lover's whispers to obey,
Hendir, dwarf-prince, friend in passion,
Babe produced to serve the line,
The Avvar tribe, her name, our taking."

 

It's alot there. And I see Flemeth/Mythal; I see Golden Cities/Dreamers/Lies; I see the leaf eared lover urging Trydda to have a baby-for the line-with a dwarven prince Hendir. So, Tyrdda is Avvar (Aval'var) Mother, and Dwarf is Avaar Father?

 

But this leaf eared laughing lady of the sky and thelm gold hand seem to play the major role in pushing these Avvar tribes forward--for their own reasons...??

 

Apologize for the tl;dr, but weird and interesting stuff, esp that tyrdda saga, and esp from this hindsight perspective.

[rapscallioness]

lol! Apparently, I'm very late to the show.

 

here's a short thread from abt Aug 2015 (only 2 pages) but good info! As well as a post by @madrar with interesting stuff abt thelm and norse mythology...and missing hands.

 

http://forum.bioware...t-or-hate-it-p/