54 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

The high potential disparity of playing time, and the even greater disparity in time spent "banter eligible" - since combat, main quest areas, talking to people, riding horses and so forth doesn't allow banter - is I think very much the problem. Its basically impossible to set up a time based system that won't lead to some people running out or other people barely getting any banter.

The best solution to me would have been to make the banter trigger based on something that reacts to the players own pacing. The location based system in the old game did that to some extent - even the critical path focused player was going to walk over the banter triggers, probably a few times. It was open to "abuse" in that the player could deliberately trigger a bunch of banter, but really I think that was a benefit - if the player wants to force more banter, I don't see much gain in stopping them.

You could also have an expected banter quota based on main plot completion, and speed thing up if the player seems to be dropping behind. Or you could tie banter into levels maybe - still some disparity, but a lot less to have to deal with.

[Nefla]

That 60 hour number troubles me.

My one full playthrough (so far) took 157 hours (including JoH). Since banter can only fire when you're not in combat and not in conversation, that means banter fires during time when you're just walking around and exploring.

With a 60 hour playthrough, I don't see how you could have spent much time doing that.

I posit that this is why some people don't see much banter; they don't spend much time in between other explicitly interactive content.

Given how much exploration is available in the game, it makes sense to space out the banter extremely widely in order to avoid a player running out of banter 100 hours from the end of the game. But if you could see in 60 hours all the banter I saw in 157 hours, that would leave me with 97 banter-free hours.

Seriously, that's what you're going to go with? The main plot is very short, if it was possible to play only the main plot without grinding power, the game would have been like 15 hours long. Most of that time was spent putzing around those boring empty maps (again, on foot) hoping to find something interesting to do and of course grinding power. There is apparently hours of party banter recorded yet in 60 hours I got maybe 20 minutes of it. How the heck long of a game would you have to play to get all of it? Getting 1 party banter every 6 hours seems reasonable to you? BioWare themselves said the banter was supposed to fire every 15-30 minutes of exploration.

[AlanC9]

The main plot is very short, if it was possible to play only the main plot without grinding power, the game would have been like 15 hours long.

How long would DA:O have been if we didn't have to slog through the Brecilian, the Deep Roads, and so forth?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Seriously, that's what you're going to go with? The main plot is very short, if it was possible to play only the main plot without grinding power, the game would have been like 15 hours long. Most of that time was spent putzing around those boring empty maps (again, on foot) hoping to find something interesting to do and of course grinding power. There is apparently hours of party banter recorded yet in 60 hours I got maybe 20 minutes of it. How the heck long of a game would you have to play to get all of it? Getting 1 party banter every 6 hours seems reasonable to you? BioWare themselves said the banter was supposed to fire every 15-30 minutes of exploration.

And I'm saying that a 60 hour playtrough has very few blocks of 15-30 minutes of exploration.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Have you not played Trespasser?

Not yet.

I'm not generally a fan of DLC that tacks on content to the end of a game. I'd rather DLC that expanded the game laterally.

But I'll get to it. Right now I'm finally playing Awakening.

I think you're on the track of a design issue that may not be easily soluble within the basic parameters of the design. If player A can finish the game in 50 hours but player B will need 200 hours, at what rate will the banters be given out? And does the player want to exhaust it in a single run? It might be better to just make the timer setting player-accessible so the timing can be conformed to the playstyle.

The player should absolutely get control of that.

You know what would solve all similar problems, as well? Mod tools.

[AnimalBoy]

I just wish that i didn't have to wait so long for a particular conversatio. i sat around one time for like three hours hoping that a conversation about my relationship would come up (Since those conversations do exist) and they mentioned everything but.

[Nefla]

And I'm saying that a 60 hour playtrough has very few blocks of 15-30 minutes of exploration.

Wrong. Like I said, the main quest is extremely short. The rest of the time is spent out in the maps "exploring."

[Nefla]

How long would DA:O have been if we didn't have to slog through the Brecilian, the Deep Roads, and so forth?

Um I didn't say anything about taking away the time it takes to "slog through" adamant, the arbor wilds, the winter palace, etc...I'm talking about the zones which are not integrated into the main story and the sidequests.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wrong. Like I said, the main quest is extremely short. The rest of the time is spent out in the maps "exploring."

Combat isn't exploring.

Conversation isn't exploring.

Using vendors isn't exploring.

Crafting isn't exploring.

And fast travelling isn't exploring, either (and it also might reset the banter timer).

How often did you have 15-30 minute blocks in which none of those things happened?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Um I didn't say anything about taking away the time it takes to "slog through" adamant, the arbor wilds, the winter palace, etc...I'm talking about the zones which are not integrated into the main story and the sidequests.

I would argue that everything is integrated into the main quest by virtue of the influence and power mechanics.

[Nefla]

I would argue that everything is integrated into the main quest by virtue of the influence and power mechanics.

[Nefla]

Combat isn't exploring.

Conversation isn't exploring.

Using vendors isn't exploring.

Crafting isn't exploring.

And fast travelling isn't exploring, either (and it also might reset the banter timer).

How often did you have 15-30 minute blocks in which none of those things happened?

I spent almost no time crafting or at vendors. Maybe 1 hour total in the whole 60 hours.

 

There's almost no one to talk to out in those big empty maps.

 

I never fast traveled or used a mount, I went everywhere on foot hoping to get banter.

 

I actively avoided combat when I could and bumped it down to casual to finish the boring fights quickly.

 

I got zero banter in the Trespasser DLC through 3 playthroughs of it.

 

Please keep your ignorant assumptions.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Please keep your ignorant assumptions.

Inference.

I made no assumptions. I asked questions.

[The Hierophant]

Let's calm down here folks. Nefla drop the knife? Sylvius, that billy club too?

[KaiserShep]

That 60 hour number troubles me.
My one full playthrough (so far) took 157 hours (including JoH). Since banter can only fire when you're not in combat and not in conversation, that means banter fires during time when you're just walking around and exploring.
With a 60 hour playthrough, I don't see how you could have spent much time doing that.
I posit that this is why some people don't see much banter; they don't spend much time in between other explicitly interactive content.
Given how much exploration is available in the game, it makes sense to space out the banter extremely widely in order to avoid a player running out of banter 100 hours from the end of the game. But if you could see in 60 hours all the banter I saw in 157 hours, that would leave me with 97 banter-free hours.

My most recent playthrough clocked in at 160 min before touching any of the DLC which I save for post-game play. I found that banter was pretty sparse even when just wandering. It was especially bad at the Western Approach and the Hissing Waste. The companions just weren't keen on talking. The problem is that this can really impede on getting some of that development between companions. Like, if you want Bull and Dorian to go somewhere the banter has to go on, but if it's too spread out it becomes difficult. I avoid fast travel because I feared it might mess with it.

[nightscrawl]

I just wish that i didn't have to wait so long for a particular conversatio. i sat around one time for like three hours hoping that a conversation about my relationship would come up (Since those conversations do exist) and they mentioned everything but.

I hear ya... The Cole/Dorian banter about the Inquisitor romance has never fired for me in several plays, and I have gotten to the point where those two have nothing more to say; it is simply silence. In fact, I've only seen one other player state they heard it -- running around and around the Deep Roads during Descent.

[AnimalBoy]

I hear ya... The Cole/Dorian banter about the Inquisitor romance has never fired for me in several plays, and I have gotten to the point where those two have nothing more to say; it is simply silence. In fact, I've only seen one other player state they heard it -- running around and around the Deep Roads during Descent.

 

 I only bring Sera and whoever i'm hoping to hear from in hopes that the conversation will pop up faster without a third person there to bring up a different conversation but it doesn't help anymore then it hurts. I ended up hearing from everyone other then Varric and Cole. Varric just doesn't seem to have much to say to Sera and i dare not bring Cole around Sera unless i want my nickname to be changed.

[Sylvius the Mad]

My most recent playthrough clocked in at 160 min before touching any of the DLC which I save for post-game play. I found that banter was pretty sparse even when just wandering. It was especially bad at the Western Approach and the Hissing Waste. The companions just weren't keen on talking. The problem is that this can really impede on getting some of that development between companions. Like, if you want Bull and Dorian to go somewhere the banter has to go on, but if it's too spread out it becomes difficult. I avoid fast travel because I feared it might mess with it.

I'm not saying the bug doesn't exist; it clearly does, but I think some people are seeing the bug when it isn't there.

I also know that BioWare's attempt to fix the bug partly targeted these people, because they adjusted the frequency for everyone, making the banter more predictable and more evenly spaced, and I'm not a fan of that change.

For people who weren't experiencing the bug, I think the fix made banter worse, not better.

[AlanC9]

Um I didn't say anything about taking away the time it takes to "slog through" adamant, the arbor wilds, the winter palace, etc...I'm talking about the zones which are not integrated into the main story and the sidequests.

I thought I was being obvious there, but I guess not. My point was that DA:O integrated more filler content into the critical path, so it's impossible to do an honest straight-up comparison of the critical path lengths by just adding up the hours spent on those quests..

[Nefla]

Let's calm down here folks. Nefla drop the knife? Sylvius, that billy club too?

But-but

[Sylvius the Mad]

I thought I was being obvious there, but I guess not. My point was that DA:O integrated more filler content into the critical path, so it's impossible to do an honest straight-up comparison of the critical path lengths by just adding up the hours spent on those quests..

That's an excellent point. You have to wander through more areas and engage in more incidental combat in DAO. And with the way sidequests are distributed, you'd have to know in advance who nit to talk to in order to avoid them.

Maybe the plot helpers solve that problem. I don't know; I've only every played DAO with the plot helpers turned off.

[KaiserShep]

 I only bring Sera and whoever i'm hoping to hear from in hopes that the conversation will pop up faster without a third person there to bring up a different conversation but it doesn't help anymore then it hurts. I ended up hearing from everyone other then Varric and Cole. Varric just doesn't seem to have much to say to Sera and i dare not bring Cole around Sera unless i want my nickname to be changed.

 

 

Lol I ended up reloading and removing him from my party immediately because of this. 

[Marvin P]

I'm personally not affected by this bug but I think the banter trigger every 15 minutes is way too long. 

 

If you guys don't mind, you can always use the cheat engine and manually trigger banter (which I do every 5 minutes instead).

[Nefla]

I'm personally not affected by this bug but I think the banter trigger every 15 minutes is way too long. 

 

If you guys don't mind, you can always use the cheat engine and manually trigger banter (which I do every 5 minutes instead).

I wish I would have gotten it every 15 min, once every 6 hours was way too long...

[Ghost Gal]

That 60 hour number troubles me.

My one full playthrough (so far) took 157 hours (including JoH). Since banter can only fire when you're not in combat and not in conversation, that means banter fires during time when you're just walking around and exploring.

With a 60 hour playthrough, I don't see how you could have spent much time doing that.

I posit that this is why some people don't see much banter; they don't spend much time in between other explicitly interactive content.

Given how much exploration is available in the game, it makes sense to space out the banter extremely widely in order to avoid a player running out of banter 100 hours from the end of the game. But if you could see in 60 hours all the banter I saw in 157 hours, that would leave me with 97 banter-free hours.

 

But not everyone plays the way you do. Not everyone wants to complete the billion or so fetch quests, or expose every bit of black on every map, or collect every single shard or bottle or mosaic just to hear their companions talk.

 

Or, even if some did, some might not want to do that every single playthrough. Some people might want to do the 150hr+ completionist run the first playthrough, but not the second, or third, or even sixth. One can only go running around exploring the same scenery, collecting the same shards, cashing in on the same meaningless fetch quests so many times before it gets old.

 

Should they get punished with the silent treatment all game for daring to want to play a moderate-length game (60-80hr playthroughs) because they don't want to waste literally hundreds of hours of their lives on something that's not enjoyable to them? Plus, I think 60 hours of a consistently silent playthrough sounds like a worse deal than getting to hear all the banter for fifty hours, then enduring silence after that. At least you got to hear it in your playthrough, not hear nothing all playthrough.

 

I mean, the areas are so freaking huge. You're already required to sink hours of your life wandering around large areas and complete random fetch quests (to gain Influence) to advance the story anyway. If you're not the kind who wants to explore further than the story or "main quest of the area" demands, you're not going to like it any better with the music off and/or the companions eerily quiet. It just makes it so those who already find huge open world exploration kinda boring find it unbearably boring.

 

THAT SAID, I think a decent compromise would be--you said the banter is set to activate on a timer once every ten minutes, unless you're in battle or on a mount, right? If you're doing those things when the timer runs out, it just resets and you have to wait another ten minutes. Maybe when the timer runs out and party banter is set to activate but you're fighting or riding, instead of resetting maybe it could just hold it until you're done fighting or riding, and then the companions start talking. Won't make it so people who don't want a 150hr+ run (or people who don't want to wander aimlessly for hours on end) don't spend all game hearing nothing.