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[midnight tea]

"Katherine Cross is a Ph.D student in sociology" 

 

Because of course she is.

 

Oh look, someone who actually knows something about how society works.

[GithCheater]

 

They've agreed to fix the Minsc line 

Bummer to hear that Minsc will be censored because of the humorless.

 

I hope someone will create a YouTube of this Minsc scene before it is "patched" away forever.

[mikeymoonshine]

Wasn't Cross the one who claimed that more or less all the complaints about bugs were a smokescreen for transphobia and that was the only reason anyone was leaving bad reviews? I also seem to remember her being one of the people who went ballistic about some backer written message on a gravestone in Pillars Of Eternity.

 

I mean I find the whole "badly written" thing a bit ridiculous as it's like some tiny character, who you don't even have to talk to or ask about the subject. I guess I can see why some trans people are annoyed at the developers seemingly patting themselves on the back for making some side character that ended up just causing a bunch of drama tho. Still i'd say it's better that people are thinking about how best to represent minorities and trying to do so, even if they are making mistakes along the way. 

 

I hope the devs removed the Minsc line because it was cheap, unfunny and out of character rather than because people were offended. As for Jaheira and Safana, I didn't really appreciate Scott dissing Jaheira for being the wrong kind of wife or whatever in BG1 but I think she was really just trying to say that they were a bit one dimensional in that game. Both those characters "change" in BG2 anyway so I don't see an issue with "telling a different story" with them, or whatever it is she said. As long as you aren't fundamentally changing their characters. 

[Eelectrica]

Bummer to hear that Minsc will be censored because of the humorless.

 

I hope someone will create a YouTube of this Minsc scene before it is "patched" away forever.

No, it is being removed because it was out of place in the game. Which I think is a good thing.

I'm not pro censorship, but removing something that should never have existed in the first place, I don't see that as being censorship.

 

Also it seems they're expanding on the mizehana or however it's spelt as well, so it's not just a token character, which is a good thing as well.

See what comes of it all I suppose.

Anyway finished my BG playthrough with a halfing rogue  so onto SoD and see what's what.

 

For example, I made some typo's in my original post, which I've removed as they were mistakes, so not censorship.

[straykat]

Wasn't Cross the one who claimed that more or less all the complaints about bugs were a smokescreen for transphobia and that was the only reason anyone was leaving bad reviews? I also seem to remember her being one of the people who went ballistic about some backer written message on a gravestone in Pillars Of Eternity.

 

I mean I find the whole "badly written" thing a bit ridiculous as it's like some tiny character, who you don't even have to talk to or ask about the subject. I guess I can see why some trans people are annoyed at the developers seemingly patting themselves on the back for making some side character that ended up just causing a bunch of drama tho. Still i'd say it's better that people are thinking about how best to represent minorities and trying to do so, even if they are making mistakes along the way. 

 

I hope the devs removed the Minsc line because it was cheap, unfunny and out of character rather than because people were offended. As for Jaheira and Safana, I didn't really appreciate Scott dissing Jaheira for being the wrong kind of wife or whatever in BG1 but I think she was really just trying to say that they were a bit one dimensional in that game. Both those characters "change" in BG2 anyway so I don't see an issue with "telling a different story" with them, or whatever it is she said. As long as you aren't fundamentally changing their characters. 

 

Funnily, Morrowind already did this years ago and no one cared. Because it was a great character. As much as I make fun of Bethesda's stories, Vivec doesn't qualify.

 

Just write something good and the rest takes care of itself.

[Sylvius the Mad]

"Katherine Cross is a Ph.D student in sociology"

Because of course she is.

There are few fields I hold in lower regard. The Byzantine justifications she uses to support her conclusions are nonsense.

Which is unfortunate, because her conclusions are largely correct.

[Sylvius the Mad]

No, it is being removed because it was out of place in the game.

I don't think it was. The original BG made pop-culture references and broke the fourth wall. That joke suits BG perfectly.

I'm disappointed they're patching it out.

[Eelectrica]

I don't think it was. The original BG made pop-culture references and broke the fourth wall. That joke suits BG perfectly.

I'm disappointed they're patching it out.

Well it's preserved on youtube for all too see and hear I suppose.

Hope they make more changes. Almost every dialogue option has the PC saying "The hero of Baldurs gate is here" or words to that effect. Our dialogue choices are quite often limited. Even seen some dialogue choices pretty much doubled up at times. It's damned frustrating.

I sure the original has some poor choices at times too, but that was then, and I feel many of those mistakes were corrected in BG2.

 

Not sure you'd enjoy SoD given how linear it is and does BG2 style cinematics showing what's happening in the villains camp.

Could be wrong of course.

[maia0407]

I agree with Katherine Cross' article.
http://www.gamasutra...e_community.php

Thanks for the link. Great analysis from someone that studies anti-social behavior online.

[SnakeCode]

Honestly, I think they should have left the line in. I don't think devs should have to kowtow to complaints because someone doesn't like a line of dialogue in their game. They should be allowed to shoehorn their politics into their games if they so wish, i don't have to like it. If that's their vision then they should just see it through, results be damned, more importantly they should be allowed to do so. Even if it's a really crappy vision, like it was here. The only thing I would say is next time they want to shoehorn identity politics and social justice into a game just make a new IP instead of changing an IP people know and love, you're not going to endear yourself to fans by changing beloved characters because you  personally found them "problematic". Rocksteady had a joke making fun of Gamergate in Arkham Knight as well and I don't remember too many complaints there.  

 

I don't like seeing devs have to self censor for any reason. Whether it's the neo puritan regressive left shaming devs into removing things as simple as butt slaps or over the shoulder poses from games. Or creating a climate where devs don't even feel they are able to release a game in the west (DOAX3). Or whether it's people not allowing people to make jokes aimed at things like Gamergate.

 

Leave the shaming tactics and censorship to the SocJus bigots I say.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Heh. Gaider joins Beamdog and now its gone all aboard the Regressive Left train. Funny coincidence.

 

I mean the setting they have is one where you can change your sex magically. So having a transgender is ultimately pointless because everyone in that setting can switch their sex.

 

As for GamerGate, if Beamdog wants to pick on them then I think Beamdog should also pick on the SJWs and GamerGhazi in the interest of fairness.

 

Lastly, I find it hilarious that there are people who see the label SJWs as something good and worth being proud of. The amount of mental gymnastics and hamstering required to justify censorship and cultural authoritarianism as something good is incredible.

 

[Eelectrica]

Honestly, I think they should have left the line in. I don't think devs should have to kowtow to complaints because someone doesn't like a line of dialogue in their game. They should be allowed to shoehorn their politics into their games if they so wish, i don't have to like it. If that's their vision then they should just see it through, results be damned, more importantly they should be allowed to do so. Even if it's a really crappy vision, like it was here. The only thing I would say is next time they want to shoehorn identity politics and social justice into a game just make a new IP instead of changing an IP people know and love, you're not going to endear yourself to fans by changing beloved characters because you  personally found them "problematic". Rocksteady had a joke making fun of Gamergate in Arkham Knight as well and I don't remember too many complaints there.  

 

I don't like seeing devs have to self censor for any reason. Whether it's the neo puritan regressive left shaming devs into removing things as simple as butt slaps or over the shoulder poses from games. Or creating a climate where devs don't even feel they are able to release a game in the west (DOAX3). Or whether it's people not allowing people to make jokes aimed at things like Gamergate.

 

Leave the shaming tactics and censorship to the SocJus bigots I say.

I get what you're saying, but honestly they've over used cringe worthy lines as it is. Less is more in this case

[German Soldier]

He's the writer who build part of the setting , the DA universe , it was also the Lead Writer until Trespasser.Wrote some plots (can't remember which) also Morrigan , Flemeth , Alistair Zevran , Shale, Loghain , Fenris , Meredith , maybe Orsino , Dorian , Cassandra etc...

I'm 80 % certain that Gaider didn't wrote Flemeth in DAO,Loghain and Orsino

[straykat]

Despite all of that, I still have faith in Beamdog. Sjw or not.. there's no EA involved.

 

At the very least, I can probably expect them to complete their ideas to fruition.

[azarhal]

 

I'm a woman and I don't give a crap if some 30 years old dudes wants their nostalgia fix with a bunch of sexy pixel female character.

Instead it seems those guys got 50 shades of "I'm a strong independant woman".

 

The BG games are already full of 50 shades of "I'm a strong independent woman" and even "transgender" too but that was played for laugh (Edwin getting turned into Edwina in BG2 for example). Looking at it, the end of the 90s and early 2000s was way more accepting of controversial topics (and cheesiness) in games than people are now.

[straykat]

The BG games are already full of 50 shades of "I'm a strong independent woman" and even "transgender" too but that was played for laugh (Edwin getting turned into Edwina in BG2 for example). Looking at it, the end of the 90s and early 2000s was way more accepting of controversial topics (and cheesiness) in games than people are now.

 

I don't think it was overtly political back then. Not in games. Not even film/TV. There was more art and entertainment involved.

 

And somehow it becomes particularly insufferable when being preached to by neckbeards. Or at least, that's my guess.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Well it's preserved on youtube for all too see and hear I suppose.
Hope they make more changes. Almost every dialogue option has the PC saying "The hero of Baldurs gate is here" or words to that effect. Our dialogue choices are quite often limited. Even seen some dialogue choices pretty much doubled up at times. It's damned frustrating.
I sure the original has some poor choices at times too, but that was then, and I feel many of those mistakes were corrected in BG2.

Not sure you'd enjoy SoD given how linear it is and does BG2 style cinematics showing what's happening in the villains camp.
Could be wrong of course.

I didn't like the EE edition of BG. It muddied up the interface a bit, and incorporated some mechanical changes (like walking speed) from BG2 that I didn't like. I'd much rather just play BG (which I have since BG EE was released).

The BG EE wasn't so much a rerelease of BG as it was an official release of the BG Tutu mod that let you run BG as a module inside BG2, and I always preferred vanilla BG to BG Tutu.

BG2 is where I think BioWare started to go wrong. I was hoping Beamdog would go for more of a classic CRPG feel, which is less heavily story-driven and more free-form. And certainly doesn't have cinematics of the sort you describe.

[straykat]

I didn't like the EE edition of BG. It muddied up the interface a bit, and incorporated some mechanical changes (like walking speed) from BG2 that I didn't like. I'd much rather just play BG (which I have since BG EE was released).

The BG EE wasn't so much a rerelease of BG as it was an official release of the BG Tutu mod that let you run BG as a module inside BG2, and I always preferred vanilla BG to BG Tutu.

BG2 is where I think BioWare started to go wrong. I was hoping Beamdog would go for more of a classic CRPG feel, which is less heavily story-driven and more free-form. And certainly doesn't have cinematics of the sort you describe.

 

How do you even stick with Bioware for this long, when you think BG2 is where they went wrong? I'm not saying it's perfect, but I have to wonder why you never moved on.

 

And then to get giddy about DAI of all things. Like finally they got it right or something...after nearly 20 years.

[Eelectrica]

I didn't like the EE edition of BG. It muddied up the interface a bit, and incorporated some mechanical changes (like walking speed) from BG2 that I didn't like. I'd much rather just play BG (which I have since BG EE was released).

The BG EE wasn't so much a rerelease of BG as it was an official release of the BG Tutu mod that let you run BG as a module inside BG2, and I always preferred vanilla BG to BG Tutu.

BG2 is where I think BioWare started to go wrong. I was hoping Beamdog would go for more of a classic CRPG feel, which is less heavily story-driven and more free-form. And certainly doesn't have cinematics of the sort you describe.

So far SoD feels more like Icewind dale than BG.

I'm still curious to see what they've got DG working on though. Hopefully it's a little more open than what SoD is so far.

With the renaissance of CRPG's I feel the time is right to go for that classic feel using todays tech.

[mikeymoonshine]

Despite all of that, I still have faith in Beamdog. Sjw or not.. there's no EA involved.

 

At the very least, I can probably expect them to complete their ideas to fruition.

 

I actually liked some of the EE added characters, although others were a bit disappointing. I know I said I thought the complaints about the writing of the trans character were very over the top but I do think there is sometimes something to this tokenism argument.

 

One of the writers said something about one of the characters they made for bg2 being more interesting because she is a lesbian. Ok I guess it is interesting to have lgbt+ ppl in games, we don't get to show up that often but when it comes to that character I really don't see how her being a lesbian makes her more interesting. Like sure, it made her more appealing to me coz representation but it didn't make her story line any less disappointing to me either. What could have been a great character was just a meh character and her being a lesbian or any other of the interesting things she is didn't make any difference to me. What matters most is the writing. 

 

Her quest in TOB is like almost gamebreakingly bugged as well, and I played it like not even that long ago so this isn't something that was released and then patched. 

 

Anyway having Gaider as creative director can't hurt and we should definitely give Beamdog some time to find their feet. I do appreciate what they are doing for the most part. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

How do you even stick with Bioware for this long, when you think BG2 is where they went wrong? I'm not saying it's perfect, but I have to wonder why you never moved on.

And then to get giddy about DAI of all things. Like finally they got it right or something...after nearly 20 years.

BG was brilliant. BG2 was still really good. NWN was brilliant. And I wasn't even finished those games when KotOR came out (a game I wasn't initially interested in because it was an XBox exclusive, and I'm exclusively a PC gamer). And KotOR wasn't bad, and it was a really interesting new take on the blank slate protagonist.

And shortly after KotOR, Dragon Age was announced. The other games that came out (JE and ME) during the development of what would eventually become DAO didn't interest me, but I was waiting for this PC CRPG I'd been promised in 2004. And it was amazing; I loved it.

Not until DA2 was I genuinely disappointed by a game in which I'd been interested, and then DAI was a return to the level of quality established by BG and NWN.

And throughout that whole time, no other developer that did anything like BioWare's pause-and-play combat survived for more than a release or two.

And to this day, BioWare remaijs the only major RPG developer that doesn't force action combat on players. They've released exactly one RPG ever that did that - Jaee Empire - and that was years ago.

Even if I hadn't liked DAO and DAI, I'd probably still stick around just for their combat design.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I mean the setting they have is one where you can change your sex magically. So having a transgender is ultimately pointless because everyone in that setting can switch their sex.

You don't understand what transgender means.

[Nixou]

I mean the setting they have is one where you can change your sex magically. So having a transgender is ultimately pointless because everyone in that setting can switch their sex.

 

 

Sooooo, basically, the game sucks because you can't give Mizhena the Girdle of Femininity for 2000 bonus XP?

[straykat]

BG was brilliant. BG2 was still really good. NWN was brilliant. And I wasn't even finished those games when KotOR came out (a game I wasn't initially interested in because it was an XBox exclusive, and I'm exclusively a PC gamer). And KotOR wasn't bad, and it was a really interesting new take on the blank slate protagonist.

And shortly after KotOR, Dragon Age was announced. The other games that came out (JE and ME) during the development of what would eventually become DAO didn't interest me, but I was waiting for this PC CRPG I'd been promised in 2004. And it was amazing; I loved it.

Not until DA2 was I genuinely disappointed by a game in which I'd been interested, and then DAI was a return to the level of quality established by BG and NWN.

And throughout that whole time, no other developer that did anything like BioWare's pause-and-play combat survived for more than a release or two.

And to this day, BioWare remaijs the only major RPG developer that doesn't force action combat on players. They've released exactly one RPG ever that did that - Jaee Empire - and that was years ago.

Even if I hadn't liked DAO and DAI, I'd probably still stick around just for their combat design.

 

Wow... was Kotor exclusive? I remember JE was.. but didn't realize Kotor was too. I did play it on Xbox myself though.

 

Jade Empire is less action-y than DAI. There's no need to think at all with DAI. You can literally mash your way to victory. While on Nightmare, it's merely tedious mashing your way to victory. There's little tactical gameplay, especially with typical encounters.

 

JE is similar enough to their old games. Brent Knowles designed all of them. They all have the same basic feel, and it's what's been lost since DA2 - precisely when he left. But even DA2 had more going for it than DAI. They have MUD and MMO people designing combat now.

[maia0407]

I don't think it was overtly political back then. Not in games. Not even film/TV. There was more art and entertainment involved.
 
And somehow it becomes particularly insufferable when being preached to by neckbeards. Or at least, that's my guess.

Movies and tv were pushing political boundaries in the 90s. Heck, Star Trek had the first controversial race kiss on tv way before the 90s. Interracial relationships and lgbqt relationships were being depicted in 90s entertainment with all the same outrage and accusations of tokenism that we're seeing today regarding transgender issues. Part of the reason that people are becoming desensitized to these these issues is that they see these characters portrayed as people In their entertainment; it becomes not such a big deal.

I remember watching '6 feet under' with male friends and watching them cringe at the same sex kissing when first exposed to it. Now, most of them don't act shocked when seeing it. It's been normalized and that's good. I hope the same can happen for transgender people. I think it will.