169 réponses à ce sujet

[Bardox9]

*SPOILERS*... sort of.... you should have played this one by now.

 

Do the events found in the scroll change your view of the Dalish, the Chantry, or the Dales? 

 

http://dragonage.wik...ath_of_Elandrin

 

I always assumed it was something along these lines. It's usually the way of world altering religious wars. A new religion moves in, sets up shop, criers on every corner bringing tensions to a boiling point, the disaffected begin to convert, and then... someone does something stupid. With a victim to point to, the zealots can now turn a religious movement into a full scale holy war. To the victor goes the spoils and the defeated (should they survive) tell the tales of how their people were wronged.

 

I'm indifferent about who should get the scroll in the end. If you give it to the Dalish, it's one clan (If you can call 4 people a clan?) with another story the others won't have. If you give it to the Chantry the story can spread wider and faster, but as far as the Dalish would be concerned, it's just more Shem' lies.

[Xilizhra]

It's obviously the Dalish who should get it, as they're more likely to be honest about it than the Chantry.

[thats1evildude]

The Chantry would likely bury it, as it doesn't fit with their belief the war was completely the fault of the Dalish. (It was more half and half.)

The Dalish will probably share the knowledge with the other clans. I hope that it might lead to slightly more tolerance for humans.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Chantry would likely bury it, as it doesn't fit with their belief the war was completely the fault of the Dalish.

 

It was radical portions of their military that did cross a border, did put a town to torch just to kill a expatriate.

 

So yeah, the Chantry was telling the truth, surprise surprise.

 

If anything the Chantry would tell the truth just to shut the Dalish up, their own history tells the story of how they screwed themselves over.

[thetinyevil]

I give it to the Dalish because it is likely to be told truthfully. While the Chantry would either bury or rewriting it so that it was completely the Dalish's fault.

[TEWR]

In the end, both sides could reasonably be seen as attempting to bury it because it might not fit with the narrative they've held to for centuries.

 

But it comes down to this: are you content to hand important documents to a group of people with such power and influence over Thedas that their actions will ultimately shape the treatment of the others for centuries to come -- the Chantry -- or are you content to hand these documents to a nomadic group that's a remnant of a culture that was almost destroyed and cannot shape how society treats them because they wield no power in it -- the Dalish?

 

Under those circumstances, I'll pick the Dalish every time. If they bury it they just vindicate what's being said about them, and gain little in the long run.

[Ghost Gal]

*SPOILERS*... sort of.... you should have played this one by now.

 

Do the events found in the scroll change your view of the Dalish, the Chantry, or the Dales? 

 

Yeah, it did. I thought the so-called "Attack on Red Crossing" was just Chantry propaganda made up to justify retaking the Dales and re-subjugating elves.

 

I was a little disappointed that it was based on truth, but I glad to learn that the elves didn't deliberately, maliciously set out to launch a pre-meditated massacre on poor, innocent widdle hoomins. It was a misunderstanding fueled from centuries of mistrust on both sides. (If both sides weren't so jumpy and paranoid from centuries of petty border skirmishes, and didn't instantly assume that every human/elf coming toward them was there to kill them, and didn't blindly attack every person they saw from the other side, the whole damn thing could have been avoided.)

 

I'm indifferent about who should get the scroll in the end. If you give it to the Dalish, it's one clan (If you can call 4 people a clan?) with another story the others won't have. If you give it to the Chantry the story can spread wider and faster, but as far as the Dalish would be concerned, it's just more Shem' lies.

 

I'd rather give it to the Dalish. They're much more honest, humble, and contrite about it.

 

Before this game, the Dalish flat-out didn't believe Red Crossing happened. Tell them the Chantry said so, they dismissed it as, "History is written by the winners, so of course they'll say we did this to justify what they did." Bring them this letter though? They instantly honor it as a treasured relic of their past, and try to learn from it. They send a mourning halla (sacred to their culture) to present-day Red Crossing as an apology and an attempt to build bridges.

 

Give it to the Chantry, though, and the Chantry uses it to promote yet more overtly pro-Andrastian, pro-human, anti-elf propaganda. They spread "the word" that the letter is yet more proof that their poor Andrastian ancestors were cruelly persecuted for their beliefs by those wicked elves, and that a poor elven man who clearly saw the light and clearly wished to convert to the One True Religion (which he didn't--the letter clearly states that he didn't believe in any gods and just pretended to convert so the village of the human woman he loved would allow them to marry) was murdered by his fellows for daring to come to the right side (which he wasn't, he was killed by the human villagers who assumed he'd murdered his beloved when they saw him mourning over her body), and then those wild, wicked, savage, heathen elves deliberately launched a pre-medicated attack and cruelly slaughtered hundreds of innocent little martyrs to please their wretched false gods!

 

BARF.

 

I'd rather give the account to people who'll try to learn from it and use the information constructively (like reach out to and try to make amends with those their ancestors wronged to broker more peace and understanding from both sides) than to a bunch of deluded history-revisionists (who already have a track-record of rewriting history to serve their own ends, like striking Shartan from the Canticles of Light or rewriting the elven mage Ameridan into a non-magic human) who just want to use it to promote yet more pro-Chantry, pro-human, anti-Dales, anti-elf propaganda.

[AedanStarfang]

It was radical portions of their military that did cross a border, did put a town to torch just to kill a expatriate.

 

So yeah, the Chantry was telling the truth, surprise surprise.

 

If anything the Chantry would tell the truth just to shut the Dalish up, their own history tells the story of how they screwed themselves over.

My first instinct would be to hand it over to the Dalish but at the same time I agree with this post...so I'm at an impasse lol

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The story was more or less what I expected it would have been - both sides were guilty of hostility, neither (at least within this story) deliberately set out to start a war.

 

Having tried out giving the scroll to both sides, I found the Dalish seemed to be more honest and understanding about the revelations. 

[Ashagar]

Yah the dalish are more honest though I have to admit once the war started its clear the dalish were far more ready for war than the Orlaisians given apparently they managed to over run and sack over half the Orlaisian empire rather quickly, if the chantry hadn't declared holy war after that we'd likely be dealing with the dalish empire instead of the Orlasian empire in game.

 

Wonder if that means Ferelden would have never been invaded and if the chantry would have been either reduced to a mouth piece for the Dales or forced to relocate their headquarters to Tevinter(the war with the dale happened before the Tevinter chantry reestablished its independence as I recall) or some other land. In either case we'd likely have a very different chantry than what we have now.

[Gervaise]

Comparing the reaction of the two sides if you give them the scroll, it is clear that the Dalish are far more honest in their response to it and try to build bridges between communities as a result.    What annoyed me was the reaction of your advisers to the offer of the halla.   As an elf I was incensed that they were so ungracious about it and made it out to be a deal of trouble that they really didn't support.   Leliana even suggests lying to the village to get them to accept it.

 

As for the Chantry, if you give it to them they make a totally biased appraisal of the information and it is clear they are not going to publish the full transcript but just edited highlights to confirm their own propaganda.    Most likely that will be blacked out bits like with the codex about Glandivalis in WoT2 by Sister Petrine, for which we have the full transcript in DA2.   The Chantry aren't the least bit interested in finding out the truth about anything that doesn't support their world view.    I'm sure they also ignored the revelations about Inquisitor Ameridan, even with Divine Cassandra claiming the truth should be known.

 

The thing about the Red Crossing revelation is that it wasn't really as important to what subsequently occurred as the game leads you to believe.    In World of Thedas 1, the timeline clearly shows that following this event the elves became far more aggressive and were no longer simply protecting their borders but marched on Orlesian territory itself.   Not content with sacking Montsimmard, which was a strategic location with regard to the Dales, they then went on to march on Val Royeaux itself.   It was only at this point that the Divine called for an Exalted March, which I have to admit was reasonable enough considering they were under attack, but even then only Orlais itself supplied any forces, which is odd considering the timeline also claims that humans across Thedas were enraged at the atrocities committed at Red Crossing.     Then the war stretched on for another 10 years before Halamshiral finally fell.    So that makes the whole political situation seem much more complex than the history given in DAI would make it appear.

[Gervaise]

Here's another interesting thought; in WoT2 it says about Drakon that in his early years as Emperor, even before founding the official founding of the Chantry, he had conquered well into modern day Ferelden, spreading the Chant and stamping out the worship of local deities.    This seems odd, as to get to Ferelden he would have to have gone through the Dales, or alternatively gone by sea but that would have left him with no direct supply line to his armies.    So did the elves allow him passage through the northern part of their lands?

[BSpud]

I give it to the Dalish. Just another wrong to right in anticipation of Divine Cassandra Victoria inaugurating Vatican Chantry II.

[SgtSteel91]

Given that the scroll is written by an Elf of the Dales and found in a Dalish ruin, I give it to the Dalish. It's their artifact and their history

[thats1evildude]

Here's another interesting thought; in WoT2 it says about Drakon that in his early years as Emperor, even before founding the official founding of the Chantry, he had conquered well into modern day Ferelden, spreading the Chant and stamping out the worship of local deities. This seems odd, as to get to Ferelden he would have to have gone through the Dales, or alternatively gone by sea but that would have left him with no direct supply line to his armies. So did the elves allow him passage through the northern part of their lands?

Judging from Ameridan's comments, there was a loose alliance between Orlais and the Dales at the time.

[Gervaise]

Which means that those Dalish he says didn't approve of the relationship may not just have been isolationists but actually objected to allowing Drakon to cross elven land in order to conquer other people, particularly as they were the descendants of the chieftain who originally granted them the Dales.   It also accounts for why they thought that Orlais was no better than Tevinter.   Even Ameridan could see that Drakon's desire to keep things "simple" with regard to religion was likely to cause problems.    I really wish we could find documents to indicate why the elves went so far as to march on Val Royeaux but I guess that isn't going to happen now we are travelling north.

[In Exile]

The story was more or less what I expected it would have been - both sides were guilty of hostility, neither (at least within this story) deliberately set out to start a war.

 

Having tried out giving the scroll to both sides, I found the Dalish seemed to be more honest and understanding about the revelations. 

 

To be fair, we don't actually know who started the war. There's no actual information on the follow up to Red Crossing, and I actually think that people overstate how blameworthy the Dales as a whole are vs. the spec ops group that actually started the slaughter. That was an entirely unauthorized border crossing that resulted in a slaughter. Basically, we learn that Red Crossing happened, and that racial prejudice was at the core of the death of that town, but I actually think the story makes the elves far less culpable than the human narrative because it was totally unsanctioned. 

 

If the Red Crossing incident is what led to war, then it was far more the product of the already broken diplomatic relationship. Though to be fair the Dales should have executed the surviving and return elves as traitors - they're clearly unfit for duty at that point, given that they just committed an act of war with absolutely zero regard for the effect it could have on the Dales. 

[In Exile]

I'd rather give the account to people who'll try to learn from it and use the information constructively (like reach out to and try to make amends with those their ancestors wronged to broker more peace and understanding from both sides) than to a bunch of deluded history-revisionists (who already have a track-record of rewriting history to serve their own ends, like striking Shartan from the Canticles of Light or rewriting the elven mage Ameridan into a non-magic human) who just want to use it to promote yet more pro-Chantry, pro-human, anti-Dales, anti-elf propaganda.

 

You're right in how the Chantry treats the story, but I'm not sure a word like "history-revisionist" is really useful here, because the Dalish - and that's post- and pre- the fall of the Dales - have defined themselves by historical revisionism, and have re-written tehir entire history to serve their own political ends, including building an entire fabricated mythology and resisting any attempts to have it challenged (cf. Solas). 

 

A lot can be laid at the feet of the Chantry, but both the Chantry, Orlais and the various Dalish clans and the Dales itself are all equally guilty of politically motivated historical revisionism. 

[In Exile]

Which means that those Dalish he says didn't approve of the relationship may not just have been isolationists but actually objected to allowing Drakon to cross elven land in order to conquer other people, particularly as they were the descendants of the chieftain who originally granted them the Dales.   It also accounts for why they thought that Orlais was no better than Tevinter.   Even Ameridan could see that Drakon's desire to keep things "simple" with regard to religion was likely to cause problems.    I really wish we could find documents to indicate why the elves went so far as to march on Val Royeaux but I guess that isn't going to happen now we are travelling north.

 

The answer is pretty simple regardless of who caused the war. Either the Dales were invaded first, repelled the Orlesians, and decided that they had to strike while the iron was hot and put down a clear threat to their society, or they made the first moved, and marched to break the Orlesians for good. 

 

Either way, it's a sound military tactic.

[Mykel54]

It doesn´t matter how the war started. The dalish picked their old dead gods over Andraste and her Maker, who saved them from slavery. If they had remained Andrastian their relations with the human world would have been better (see Ameridan/Drakon), and they could rebuild their society with a better future. It´s not like the gods they worship determine their ability to rebuild and rediscover old stuff - see the renaissance, rediscovering classical culture but through christian lens.

 

Instead, what happened is that those elven mages (proto-keepers) figured they would have to submit their power with andrastianism, being watched over by templars and losing all their privileges. So they preached that andriastianism was corrupt and how humans living with elves shortened their lifespans, went total isolationism in order to preserve their perfect magocracy where they had indisputed rule over the non-mages.

[Riot Inducer]

You're right in how the Chantry treats the story, but I'm not sure a word like "history-revisionist" is really useful here, because the Dalish - and that's post- and pre- the fall of the Dales - have defined themselves by historical revisionism, and have re-written tehir entire history to serve their own political ends, including building an entire fabricated mythology and resisting any attempts to have it challenged (cf. Solas). 

 

A lot can be laid at the feet of the Chantry, but both the Chantry, Orlais and the various Dalish clans and the Dales itself are all equally guilty of politically motivated historical revisionism. 

TBH I kind of doubt the Dales messing up elven mythology was done to serve a political purpose or even as an intentional thing. Do keep in mind they were slaves in Tevinter for hundreds of years. All elven mythology of the Dales is based on stories handed down by slaves and misinterpreting any artifacts and ruins they discovered based on that. Modern Dalish resistance to Solas' version of things is likely due to the fact that he's not Dalish himself and the mythology the Dalish follow has been in use for over a millennia.   

[Master Warder Z_]

TBH I kind of doubt the Dales messing up elven mythology was done to serve a political purpose or even as an intentional thing.

 

I doubt that.

 

The lore would support that notion given that they were a hostile isolationist state.

[In Exile]

TBH I kind of doubt the Dales messing up elven mythology was done to serve a political purpose or even as an intentional thing. Do keep in mind they were slaves in Tevinter for hundreds of years. All elven mythology of the Dales is based on stories handed down by slaves and misinterpreting any artifacts and ruins they discovered based on that. Modern Dalish resistance to Solas' version of things is likely due to the fact that he's not Dalish himself and the mythology the Dalish follow has been in use for over a millennia.   

 

A substantial portion of their mythology is about 1) the utopian world they lived in when they had a racially pure society 2) the way they were "tained" by exposure to a different racial group (humans) and 3) the way they were subsequently persecuted. There's a lot of entrenched and borderline absurd racism that has no connection with what they ended up turning into pure mythology.

 

When you ignore the parts of their mythology that are political and/or comically racist, they actually tend to get events terrifyingly correct. In fact, correct to a level that's probably impossible IRL with the type of society that they have.

Their mistakes are all about whitewashing their past or fitting their narrative about race. 

[BansheeOwnage]

So... why can't we give it to both sides?

[In Exile]

So... why can't we give it to both sides?

 

That's insane. Are you suggesting some sort of... re-production of writing? Some strange process whereby one person looks at writing, and then writes that same thing on some other piece of parchment?

Rank insanity. Madness.