That's insane. Are you suggesting some sort of... re-production of writing? Some strange process whereby one person looks at writing, and then writes that same thing on some other piece of parchment?
Rank insanity. Madness.
Perhaps the side you give the copy too will think it's a forgery?
Perhaps the side you give the copy too will think it's a forgery?
It's possible, but there are ways around that. If you really wanted to put in the effort, you could show the Chantry the original, let them authenticate it (if that's a thing in that universe), then give them the copy and give the original to the Dalish. They believe you right off the bat anyway. Haven't tried selling it to the Chantry.
*SPOILERS*... sort of.... you should have played this one by now.
Do the events found in the scroll change your view of the Dalish, the Chantry, or the Dales?
http://dragonage.wik...ath_of_Elandrin
I always assumed it was something along these lines. It's usually the way of world altering religious wars. A new religion moves in, sets up shop, criers on every corner bringing tensions to a boiling point, the disaffected begin to convert, and then... someone does something stupid. With a victim to point to, the zealots can now turn a religious movement into a full scale holy war. To the victor goes the spoils and the defeated (should they survive) tell the tales of how their people were wronged.
I'm indifferent about who should get the scroll in the end. If you give it to the Dalish, it's one clan (If you can call 4 people a clan?) with another story the others won't have. If you give it to the Chantry the story can spread wider and faster, but as far as the Dalish would be concerned, it's just more Shem' lies.
I give it to the elves because it was written by elves and found in an elven ruin. It may concern humans as well, but the scroll belongs to the elves. That's really my only motivation, and I'm not some rabid pro-elf player, either.
Perhaps the side you give the copy too will think it's a forgery?
Seems like that's as much a problem with the original, no?
It's possible, but there are ways around that. If you really wanted to put in the effort, you could show the Chantry the original, let them authenticate it (if that's a thing in that universe), then give them the copy and give the original to the Dalish. They believe you right off the bat anyway. Haven't tried selling it to the Chantry.
That's a thing in the Dragon Age universe. In DAO there is Sister Justine who is a curator for the Chantry whom you can bring scrolls from the Temple of Sacred Ashes that she authenticates, since she is cautious about fake relics and artifacts.
That's a thing in the Dragon Age universe. In DAO there is Sister Justine who is a curator for the Chantry whom you can bring scrolls from the Temple of Sacred Ashes that she authenticates, since she is cautious about fake relics and artifacts.
One thing I liked about Sister Justine was that she was a total lore nerd and would have accepted anything (that she deemed authentic), regardless of content or what it said about the Chantry, as long as she could preserve the history and learn from it. She was very much a scholar in the spirit of Brother Genitivi, I think. Unfortunately, you don't really know what kind of a historian someone is going to be unless you talk to them for a bit. I don't think you can have such an involved conversation with the Sister in VR about this scroll.
So... why can't we give it to both sides?
I was just about to write the exact same thing.
But then... how are we supposed to keep Thedas shrouded in useless mystery so racists and religious fanatics can have a hayday making crap up to support their violence?
At the end of the day it doesn't really matter who you give it to since it is doesn't change anything. Given the amount of ancient elven history we turn up, I doubt the Dalish are going to be that bothered about the Red Crossing revelations, beyond the token peace offering that they do give. It seems to me that the stuff about the evanuris is way more significant.
Likewise the Chantry. Their reaction is only to be expected; they will simply use it to reinforce their propaganda about the Exalted March on the Dales. Given the reaction when Divine Leliana decides to restore the Canticle of Shartan to the Chant, it is clear the Chantry as a whole does not like anyone suggesting that Orlais annexing the Dales was contrary to their prophet's intentions. I find it amusing that Leliana has decided to restore it when WoT2 has revealed it is likely not based on the actual events anyway.
The thing is, I assume that everyone simply stuck their heads in the sand over the Solas revelations because the nobility and the majority of the Chantry are not going to be happy admitting that Fen'Harel is real and that he and not the Maker created the Veil. This is what I find so odd about DAI because what is revealed about elven history is that for the most part the Dalish got it right, with the exception of the bit about humans, but what with the history of Andraste we find around the place (and in WoT2), plus the whole history of the Titans and the evanuris, it makes the visions of Andraste and the claims about the Maker pretty much redundant. Yet there is never the opportunity to go to the Chantry (or the Dalish for that matter) with everything we found out, which are way more significant than Red Crossing.
I'd quite like there to be some character in the next game who specifically goes about preaching about the true history of the world but is denounced as a heretic, with the PC able to decide if they want to support their efforts at revealing the truth or not. Then again, if we are going to Tevinter, may be there will be a big reveal about what really went on back in early human history.
Likely there will be revelations about early human history or at least the history of the neromenian tribes who first were the first humans to encounter the elves. I am interested to find out what ancient maker worship belief like before and after the rise of old god worship. I am also interested in finding out if my suspicions about maker belief and old god worship might have coexisted during the Imperium.
After all Ancient Tevinter was a fantasy Rome counterpart which it brings to mind that the ancient Romans had actually two religions, the public state religion and a private folk religion which was practiced at only at home and they saw no contradiction in actively taking part in both.
That's a thing in the Dragon Age universe. In DAO there is Sister Justine who is a curator for the Chantry whom you can bring scrolls from the Temple of Sacred Ashes that she authenticates, since she is cautious about fake relics and artifacts.
Ah, right, thanks. It's been a while since I played DA:O.
I'm indifferent about who should get the scroll in the end. If you give it to the Dalish, it's one clan (If you can call 4 people a clan?) with another story the others won't have. If you give it to the Chantry the story can spread wider and faster, but as far as the Dalish would be concerned, it's just more Shem' lies.
In the end, it depends on which kind of character you made. If your inquisitor trusts the Chantry enough, then it's the better choice. If your Quizzy doesn't believe the Chantry will do the right thing, think that the descent clerics will be overridden by the zealots and cynical power-brokers, then the Dalish are the best choice
I gave it to the Dalish. I decided that it was best to share the information with the Dalish Elves and see what they do with it.
The Chantry has proven, time and time again, that they can and they will suppress inconvenient historical facts for their own agenda. This is also the main reason I chose to elect Leliana as Divine Victoria. She is the only Divine who actively works to undo the inconvenient information suppression like the Canticle of Shartan.
I give it to the Dalish for two reasons. It was written by a Dalish elf, so giving it to them feels like giving them back their own property. I don't like the idea of selling an important historical document.
*SPOILERS*... sort of.... you should have played this one by now.
Do the events found in the scroll change your view of the Dalish, the Chantry, or the Dales?
http://dragonage.wik...ath_of_Elandrin
I always assumed it was something along these lines. It's usually the way of world altering religious wars. A new religion moves in, sets up shop, criers on every corner bringing tensions to a boiling point, the disaffected begin to convert, and then... someone does something stupid. With a victim to point to, the zealots can now turn a religious movement into a full scale holy war. To the victor goes the spoils and the defeated (should they survive) tell the tales of how their people were wronged.
I'm indifferent about who should get the scroll in the end. If you give it to the Dalish, it's one clan (If you can call 4 people a clan?) with another story the others won't have. If you give it to the Chantry the story can spread wider and faster, but as far as the Dalish would be concerned, it's just more Shem' lies.
I saved my game after getting it, then gave it to the Chantry, reloaded my game and gave it to the Dalish to compare the reactions.
The Dalish take it, acknowledge their fault in the Red Crossing and try to make amends and send a mourning halla to Red Crossing and it's up to the Inquisitor to make sure it's accepted, the single most sacred animal of the Dalish.
The Chantry hierarchy whitewashes the human fault out of it and paints it all as the Dalish's.
Both sides have dirty laundery in that tragic affair, but I found the Dalish to be more honest about it.
I gave it to the Dalish. I decided that it was best to share the information with the Dalish Elves and see what they do with it.
The Chantry has proven, time and time again, that they can and they will suppress inconvenient historical facts for their own agenda. This is also the main reason I chose to elect Leliana as Divine Victoria. She is the only Divine who actively works to undo the inconvenient information suppression like the Canticle of Shartan.
The Dissonant Verses have many verses that were stripped from the Chant. Like the Canticle of Maferath as well. And Sister Petrine in Denerim in Origins outright tells us she's constantly on the lookout for fakes as well.
The Chantry hierarchy whitewashes the human fault out of it and paints it all as the Dalish's.
Both sides have dirty laundery in that tragic affair, but I found the Dalish to be more honest about it.
I'm prefacing this with - never having given it to the Chantry - that I have no idea what they actually say or do. But I can't see the human fault.
Orlais may well be incredibly culpable for the war - we have no idea - but there's no "human fault" in the scenario here. We have a extraterritorial and unsanctioned incursion by an armed band of the Dales most elite troops. That's - by itself - a total act of war. The villagers attacking them is not their fault, any more than it would be the fault of any local group in resisting - with deadly force - what looks to be a military incursion into their sovereign territory.
That doesn't mean the incident was the flashpoint for the war, that Orlais didn't invade afterwards on flimsy justification, or that Orlais - as a nation - was a victim at all in the entire war. It just means that - for the limited purpose of Red Crossing - the fault lies entirely with the small band of zealous militants who ignored their own laws and the laws of a foreign nation to exact extrajudicial vengeance on their own deserter, and massacred an entire town in the process.
I'm sorry but you seem to have missed out the first part of the story. Elandrin, the Emerald Knight, fell in love with a human girl from Red Crossing. He wanted her to come away with him or at least marry him. She confided in one of the Chantry priestesses and she spread rumours of an abduction (the priestess presumably suggested that Elandrin was going to kidnap the girl and have his wicked way with her). Hunters were sent out to keep watch for him. Siona's sister was wandering in the woods near the village (which one must assume was likewise very near the border between the two realms) and crossed the path of the hunters who killed her. Elandrin (probably on his way for a meeting with his love) found her body and took it back to the others. After mourning her death with his companions, he returned to see his love and she explained to him that the Chantry sister would only believe his sincerity if he swore himself to the Maker. He was going to agree to this but events conspired against them and tragedy ensued.
Can you please explain to me how the humans weren't at least partly to blame for what occurred, first in spreading rumours about the intentions of the "uncivilised elf", second in having hunters try and ambush Elandrin , thirdly in killing Sonia' sister and later for murdering Elandrin and throwing his body in the river.
where did you get the part about rumors and other things related to humans? I don't recall any of that from the quest lore which is mostly from the view point of Eladrin's fellow emerald knights views instead of any human or his own. Is it from one of the books?
where did you get the part about rumors and other things related to humans? I don't recall any of that from the quest lore which is mostly from the view point of Eladrin's fellow emerald knights views instead of any human or his own. Is it from one of the books?
http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales
http://dragonage.wik...ch_of_the_Dales
http://dragonage.wik...ath_of_Elandrin
http://dragonage.wik...ll_of_the_Dales
I have to say, I've always been rather befuddled as to how the death of Siona's sister by the humans doesn't seem to matter for the arguments. Whether as a "first punch thrown" or as a catalyst for ensuing events or whatever. Red Crossing is constantly touted as a "See!? Elves did it first! Its their fault and they deserve their fate!" but I see it more as a straw that broke the camel's back. There was the undisputed murder of Siona's sister by humans, coupled with "losing" her brother to the humans and their one god, which led to a thing, which led to another thing, which finally led to a full scale war. And before all that, there was doubtlessly plenty of border skirmishes and conflicts between humans and elves. Humans killed elves unjustly. Elves killed humans unjustly. Plenty of previous casus bellis there. Wars have been declared for less. When you have an imperialist expansionist empire with a one-true-god complex and an isolationist kingdom of heathen non-humans that also kinda stands in the way of expansion, there's gonna be conflict and it won't really matter who really "started" it.
Sigh....I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say anymore....
EDIT: its impossible to blame a single factor when there were so many factors. And a one-sided blame does not belong in this. Not just the humans. Not just the elves. Both.
Modifié par Vit246, 28 janvier 2016 - 08:29 .
If a black man kills a white police officer's brother, does that excuse the officer at all when he then shoots a young black man that looks like he has a gun because of the hostility that event created? No, nor do we think his racial hostility is in any way justified.I have to say, I've always been rather befuddled as to how the death of Siona's sister by the humans doesn't seem to matter for the arguments. Whether as a "first punch thrown" or as a catalyst for ensuing events or whatever. Red Crossing is constantly touted as a "See!? Elves did it first! Its their fault and they deserve their fate!" but I see it more as a straw that broke the camel's back. There was the undisputed murder of Siona's sister by humans, coupled with "losing" her brother to the humans and their one god, which led to a thing, which led to another thing, which finally led to a full scale war. And before all that, there was doubtlessly plenty of border skirmishes and conflicts between humans and elves. Humans killed elves unjustly. Elves killed humans unjustly. Plenty of previous casus bellis there. Wars have been declared for less. When you have an imperialist expansionist empire with a one-true-god complex and an isolationist kingdom of heathen non-humans that also kinda stands in the way of expansion, there's gonna be conflict and it won't really matter who really started it.
Sigh....I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say anymore....
If a black man kills a white police officer's brother, does that excuse the officer at all when he then shoots a young black man that looks like he has a gun because of the hostility that event created? No, nor do we think his racial hostility is in any way justified.
(A controversial example maybe, but I want to make clear that what happened to Siona's sister does not excuse her later actions)
Siona's sister's death explains why she made her mistake, but it doesn't make it the humans' fault that she shot a solitary unarmed woman holding a letter despite having backup from a full squad of heavily armed Emerald Knights behind her.
Now, I will agree that these events are the culmination of decades of border tension with events like Siona's sister's murder happening on both sides, but that doesn't mean Siona and her squad's attempt to stop her brother from leaving the Dales aren't at fault for starting the blaze forthright.
The blaze was started by the murder of Siona's sister.
The blaze was started by the murder of Siona's sister.
One could say the blaze started in the Second Blight when the Dales refused to come to the aid of Orlais.
Or with the disappearance of Ameridan.
Or Maferath's betrayal and the deaths of Andraste and Shartan.
Or Tevinter enslaving the elves to begin with.
Go back far enough, you'll find someone "who started it first"
What matters is "What do you do about it now?" Red Crossing was both humans and elves frakking it up for everyone. And until they both shoulder their equal share of the burden, they're going to just go on hating each other because someone's ancestor wronged someone else's ancestor.
What matters is "What do you do about it now?" Red Crossing was both humans and elves frakking it up for everyone. And until they both shoulder their equal share of the burden, they're going to just go on hating each other because someone's ancestor wronged someone else's ancestor.
Well, the elves are far more willing than the humans, not to mention that the humans have inflicted far, far more injustices on the elves in the meantime. The balance sheet isn't even remotely equal.
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