Well that is rather over blowing the chantry... They are a human centeric organization in a world dominated by humans though and they are anti-qunari though seems a rather sane and moral choice unless you support oppressive fantasy counterpart 1984ish distopian societies complete with thought police ,ministries of love and truth and destroying peoples minds that sends death squads across thadas to try to keep the locals more primitive.
I don't think it's overblowing the Chantry. The Chantry denies any non-humans from entering into religious service, but wants to spread the word of the Maker to all races. Their words say one thing, but the Chantry's actions indicate the Maker only loves humans.
I know Bioware has said they will never touch upon whether the Maker exists, but I do wish they would--and that it was just a bunch of BS--like all of the other race's religions/beliefs.
I'm not sure why you think that southern Thedosian culture would be irreparably damaged by Leliana,
Because she irreparably damages Southern Thedas in three years. I don't even want to imagine what else she could do in her lifetime if given the chance.
Also, the Chantry is less than a millennium old.
Nine centuries and half if we count from the Divine age.
Since the teachings of Andraste that she is perverting to suit her needs date from further back, that is more than a millennia of traditions and culture that Leliana sets fire to.
Because she irreparably damages Southern Thedas in three years. I don't even want to imagine what else she could do in her lifetime if given the chance.
Lulz. Citation needed on actual damage caused.
Nine centuries and half if we count from the Divine age.
Since the teachings of Andraste that she is perverting to suit her needs date from further back, that is more than a millennia of traditions and culture that Leliana sets fire to.
Really? I'm fairly sure that Andraste never said that mages should be subservient to the Chantry, never said that only humans should be spiritual leaders, and also never said that priests should be celibate.
I don't think it's overblowing the Chantry. The Chantry denies any non-humans from entering into religious service, but wants to spread the word of the Maker to all races. Their words say one thing, but the Chantry's actions indicate the Maker only loves humans.
I know Bioware has said they will never touch upon whether the Maker exists, but I do wish they would--and that it was just a bunch of BS--like all of the other race's religions/beliefs.
Do people just forget Brother Burkel exists or something?
Or that Evangeline used to be a elf? That'd be a elven knight captain.
.-.
The supposed 'intolerance' was non existent. Elves, Dwarves, whatever, all have a place.
I don't think it's overblowing the Chantry. The Chantry denies any non-humans from entering into religious service, but wants to spread the word of the Maker to all races. Their words say one thing, but the Chantry's actions indicate the Maker only loves humans.
I know Bioware has said they will never touch upon whether the Maker exists, but I do wish they would--and that it was just a bunch of BS--like all of the other race's religions/beliefs.
There are elven and dwarven brothers and sisters and there are elves and dwarves in the Templars, so yes they do allow non-humans to enter religious service but they don't permit them or men for that matter to become ordained priests or at well at least the southern chantry doesn't.
We don't know what the Tevinter chantry has the same restrictions though as we know they allow other things that the southern chantry doesn't permit like men and mages to become priests and permitting said priests to be married. For all we know the northern chantry permits elves and dwarves to be ordained priests and the current black divine or a past divine could have been a elf for all we know. I could certainly picture the Tevinter doing that just to rub it in the face of the southern chantry.
The intolerance is where they aren't allowed to be revered mothers.
WOT never said it was forbidden, nor that has it ever been said that it was, only that it hasn't occurred. You also have a lack of men in the priesthood, don't hear them griping.
So this disjointed argument falls apart at the seams.
There has never been one but there is nothing in place saying there cannot be. Unless if their a dude.
WOT never said it was forbidden, nor that has it ever been said that it was, only that it hasn't occurred. You also have a lack of men in the priesthood, don't hear them griping.
So this disjointed argument falls apart at the seams.
There has never been one but there is nothing in place saying there cannot be. Unless if their a dude.
Which WoT? Because Mother Giselle confirms that it's forbidden in Inquisition.
Because she irreparably damages Southern Thedas in three years. I don't even want to imagine what else she could do in her lifetime if given the chance.
I'm going to quote Xil here - "Um, what?"
Nine centuries and half if we count from the Divine age.
Since the teachings of Andraste that she is perverting to suit her needs date from further back, that is more than a millennia of traditions and culture that Leliana sets fire to.
Except that we know for a fact that these beliefs were not in a state of suspended animation for a millennium before the dastardly Leliana appeared. For one - and given the topic of the thread, most apropos - the Canticle of Shartan was specifically removed to suit the purposes of the Chantry during the Orlesian-Dales war. If anything, she truly embodying the tradition of the Chantry and Andrastianism by hypocritically revising major tenets of the religion, including sacred doctrine, solely in the name of political expediency and her own personal beliefs.
WOT never said it was forbidden, nor that has it ever been said that it was, only that it hasn't occurred. You also have a lack of men in the priesthood, don't hear them griping.
So this disjointed argument falls apart at the seams.
There has never been one but there is nothing in place saying there cannot be. Unless if their a dude.
I'm not sure I follow. You've cited a blatant example of sexism as an argument against the Chantry being intolerant?
What is the point? We've both been here for years, we already know what would happen.
I would enumerate each and every example of everything Leliana has done wrong and explain the why. First in practical terms by proving how it would bring untold suffering to the people and then I would point how it's also wrong on principle alone.
And then you would disagree. Both because you have proven impervious to wisdow in the past and because you and I plain and simply do not want the same thing. You have never liked the Chantry, you have always hated what is supposed to stand for. So, when Leliana does her best to obliterate it, of course you're happy. All the more power to you, enjoy your playthrough.
So, tell you what, rather than doing all of that again, let's go back to my original post.
Sure, she will utterly reduce the culture into an unrecognizable mix of whatever suits her personal beliefs and is useful to her goals but you know, I romanced her and she will be doing what I want.
Evidently, that is what happened. You may like that she did it but there is no denying the fact that Leliana, if she becomes Divine, does her best to completely alter the Chantry to something that fits her personal beliefs and is useful to her goals. One of those goals being "getting laid".
Really? I'm fairly sure that Andraste never said that mages should be subservient to the Chantry,
"Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him."
Andraste was a Ferelden who stood against the Tevinter. I distinctly remember Leliana supporting the mages who stood with Tevinter against Ferelden.
So, Leliana is basically defending the enemies of Andraste against the people of Andraste.
never said that only humans should be spiritual leaders, and also never said that priests should be celibate.
That is true but all accounts state that she claimed the Maker had turned from the world and only through her pleading did He turn His eye and only if all worshipped only Him.
By claiming that the Maker is watching and guiding, she goes against the very words of Andraste. Something that the Guardian, someone who actually knew Andraste, is quick to point out in DAO.
WOT never said it was forbidden, nor that has it ever been said that it was, only that it hasn't occurred. You also have a lack of men in the priesthood, don't hear them griping.
So this disjointed argument falls apart at the seams.
There has never been one but there is nothing in place saying there cannot be. Unless if their a dude.
It doesn't matter if elven woman can join the priesthood.
Because for their own good, they shouldn't. Why? To avoid situations such as these.
Need someone to celebrate the wedding of a nobleman? Send in the human.
A plague broke out and someone is needed to tend to the sick? Send in the elf.
Need someone to give tend to the condemned? Send in the elf.
You know, to be around dangerous human men who likely haven't see a woman in years and the only guards around are other humans.
Elves need to stick close to their communities. Throwing themselves into human-dominated areas is a bad idea.
There are elven and dwarven brothers and sisters and there are elves and dwarves in the Templars, so yes they do allow non-humans to enter religious service but they don't permit them or men for that matter to become ordained priests or at well at least the southern chantry doesn't.
We don't know what the Tevinter chantry has the same restrictions though as we know they allow other things that the southern chantry doesn't permit like men and mages to become priests and permitting said priests to be married. For all we know the northern chantry permits elves and dwarves to be ordained priests and the current black divine or a past divine could have been a elf for all we know. I could certainly picture the Tevinter doing that just to rub it in the face of the southern chantry.
The Templars were I believe said to recruit differently than the Chantry which is why elves and dwarves are allowed in them. However, considering Inquisition makes it a point that non-humans can't be priests, I'd say they either forgot about them or they were retconned out. Wouldn't be the first time things got retconned in this series.
The Templars were I believe said to recruit differently than the Chantry which is why elves and dwarves are allowed in them. However, considering Inquisition makes it a point that non-humans can't be priests, I'd say they either forgot about them or they were retconned out. Wouldn't be the first time things got retconned in this series.
Unless you want to suggest that historical and modern deacons, monks, nuns, friars, religious hermits, anchors and so forth were and aren't in religious service simply because they aren't ordained priests its likely not a recon. Also while Inquisition says nonhumans can't be priests its only talking about the southern chantry which is noted to different rules than the northern chantry which we don't really know much about.
Unless you want to suggest that historical and modern deacons, monks, nuns, friars, religious hermits, anchors and so forth were and aren't in religious service simply because they aren't ordained priests its likely not a recon. Also while Inquisition says nonhumans can't be priests its only talking about the southern chantry which is noted to different rules than the northern chantry which we don't really know much about.
I think the point is elves and dwarves are in the same position as men.
Not allowed to enter the priesthood aspect of the Chantry.
What is the point? We've both been here for years, we already know what would happen.
I would enumerate each and every example of everything Leliana has done wrong and explain the why. First in practical terms by proving how it would bring untold suffering to the people and then I would point how it's also wrong on principle alone.
And you would fail utterly to do so, primarily due to a lack of proof and the belief that Bioware would somehow make one outcome here significantly worse than others to fit your headcanon.
Evidently, that is what happened. You may like that she did it but there is no denying the fact that Leliana, if she becomes Divine, does her best to completely alter the Chantry to something that fits her personal beliefs and is useful to her goals. One of those goals being "getting laid".
This is done by all three candidates. Anyone in a position of power who doesn't do this is either in love with the status quo because it suits their beliefs and goals, or is a puppet of larger forces.
"Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him."
Andraste was a Ferelden who stood against the Tevinter. I distinctly remember Leliana supporting the mages who stood with Tevinter against Ferelden.
So, Leliana is basically defending the enemies of Andraste against the people of Andraste.
The line does not mean that mages should serve the Chantry, an institution that didn't even exist at the time. At the most, it implies that mages shouldn't be political leaders, and that's dubious, but that doesn't happen anyway in Leliana's ending, so why worry? I'd also say that your definition of "stands with" needs work; "tricked and enslaved by" is more accurate. The mage rebellion is quite happy to help against the actual enemies of Andraste.
That is true but all accounts state that she claimed the Maker had turned from the world and only through her pleading did He turn His eye and only if all worshipped only Him.
By claiming that the Maker is watching and guiding, she goes against the very words of Andraste. Something that the Guardian, someone who actually knew Andraste, is quick to point out in DAO.
Fun fact: Leliana doesn't actually alter the Chantry's doctrine on this point. Also, the Guardian is a spirit impostor and never actually knew Andraste.
We don't know what the Tevinter chantry has the same restrictions though as we know they allow other things that the southern chantry doesn't permit like men and mages to become priests and permitting said priests to be married. For all we know the northern chantry permits elves and dwarves to be ordained priests and the current black divine or a past divine could have been a elf for all we know. I could certainly picture the Tevinter doing that just to rub it in the face of the southern chantry.
Tevinter is even worse.
You have to me a mage to rise to any rank in the Black Chantry
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