169 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

That sounds more like a stab at the (pre-Inquisition) Chantry. Are you agreeing with me, then? 

 

No, I am in fact applying that lovely thought to the post Inquisition Chantry, regardless of leader.

 

No Divine and thus incarnation of the Chantry in this scenario is ideal, the default is by far the most tolerable but even she isn't suited for the role, the other one is a mage and the final is a possessed nutjob after image of a slightly less insane nutjob. I mean overall this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but given it was brought up.

 

.-. So no, I don't agree but I also acknowledge that no outcome is ideal.

 

Hence the Napoleon quote.

[The Baconer]

Cynicism for its own sake, then. Who should even care about that. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Cynicism for its own sake, then.

 

[In Exile]

The intolerance exists in the hearts of individual men and women, not in the teachings of the Chantry itself.

 

Well, also in the teachings, given their hierarchy on gender. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, also in the teachings, given their hierarchy on gender.

It's in Tevinter too, just inversed.

[dragonflight288]

It's in Tevinter too, just inversed.

 

And both sides have problems. 

[Daghrgenzeen]

I just got the scroll and was wondering who should get it next... My first instinct was to give to the Chantry because that appeared to the mission log screen first, but then I thought it over a bit... and then I found my way here to these Forums! (Hi, all!) I'm leaning towards giving the scroll to the Dalish now; considering my Inquisitor is one herself, it'd make sense. I guess. I don't know. These games have just proven how much I suck at making important decisions, haha.

[Gervaise]

If your Inquisitor is a Dalish then it would be odd for them to give it to the Chantry, unless they are a really subversive Dalish.   The Dalish usually regard any lore recovered as belonging collectively to the Dalish clans as a whole, so would naturally give it to the clan on the plains, who instigated the search originally, in order that it can be disseminated to the rest.   Besides you get a really interesting outcome in the form of a War Table mission that is really revealing about your advisors attitude is to the truth where the Dalish are concerned.   

 

Other races might well be more inclined to suck up to the Chantry, particularly the human noble whose family have always been heavily involved with the Chantry.

 

If you do decide to give it to the Chantry sister in Val Royeaux, that is also very revealing about the Chantry's biased view of history.  

[Master Warder Z_]

that is also very revealing about the Chantry's biased view of history.

Oh please.

It's just further confirmation of what they have said for centuries. The elves started it, why should the onus be on them to be open minded when it comes to a bunch of elves crossing borders and murdering citizenry in a spree of war crimes that would get them sent to the Hague in our world.

._.

I mean seriously its just a elven account of their guilt. Wooo

[Mistic]

If your Inquisitor is a Dalish then it would be odd for them to give it to the Chantry, unless they are a really subversive Dalish.   The Dalish usually regard any lore recovered as belonging collectively to the Dalish clans as a whole, so would naturally give it to the clan on the plains, who instigated the search originally, in order that it can be disseminated to the rest.   Besides you get a really interesting outcome in the form of a War Table mission that is really revealing about your advisors attitude is to the truth where the Dalish are concerned.   

 

Other races might well be more inclined to suck up to the Chantry, particularly the human noble whose family have always been heavily involved with the Chantry.

 

If you do decide to give it to the Chantry sister in Val Royeaux, that is also very revealing about the Chantry's biased view of history.  

 

True. Giving the data to the Chantry provides you with the Academic Notes, which already start spinning it as "an illustration of the prejudice and violence to which the Chantry stood in opposition at the time".

 

It conveniently neglects to mention that the Chantry is singled out in that information as the main instigator of tales and lies that are turning the border into a dangerous hot spot, that Elandrin showed a complete lack of faith in the Maker and that the elven convert was killed by humans. It was a case of deliberate blindness and manipulation in-game that, in this case, couldn't be blamed on confusing sources or centuries of changes.

 

That's not to say that the Chantry wasn't right about the elves being the ones who killed the human villagers at Red Crossing and hated that one of them converted. However, the different approach from them and the clan in the game always make me give the information to the Dalish, except with my personal Jerkquisitor.

[Master Warder Z_]

True. Giving the data to the Chantry provides you with the Academic Notes, which already start spinning it as "an illustration of the prejudice and violence to which the Chantry stood in opposition at the time".

It conveniently neglects to mention that the Chantry is singled out in that information as the main instigator of tales and lies that are turning the border into a dangerous hot spot, that Elandrin showed a complete lack of faith in the Maker and that the elven convert was killed by humans. It was a case of deliberate blindness and manipulation in-game that, in this case, couldn't be blamed on confusing sources or centuries of changes.

That's not to say that the Chantry wasn't right about the elves being the ones who killed the human villagers at Red Crossing and hated that one of them converted. However, the different approach from them and the clan in the game always make me give the information to the Dalish, except with my personal Jerkquisitor.

._. Nah bro.

It wasn't Templars crossing borders it was elven soldiers. Wasn't the Chantry invading it was elves, wasn't racist humans, it was stinky mud grubbing knife ears who brought their pile of twigs to the inferno.

Crud there is nothing, nothing at all even indicating Chantry involvement at all in the scenario... Beyond the murder of clergy.

._.

Nice Headcanon though

[Heimdall]

It conveniently neglects to mention that the Chantry is singled out in that information as the main instigator of tales and lies that are turning the border into a dangerous hot spot, 

Did they?  Is there any indication that this was the case?  People don't need institutions and authority figures to be prejudiced bigots.

[Mistic]

Did they?  Is there any indication that this was the case?  People don't need institutions and authority figures to be prejudiced bigots.

 

Indeed. My point wasn't that the Chantry did it, but that they only take from the information what interests them. Which is a pretty normal thing to do, and it wouldn't matter too much if it was only one detail... but those few lines contained several blatant cases of it.

 

Since the matter at hand is to whom that information should be given centuries later, I'm not sure those who are already manipulating it the moment you give it to them are better than those who at least use it to try to make amends.

[Gervaise]

As I say, the Chantry's reaction is pretty much what I would expect of them but the really disappointing reaction is that of your advisors, particularly if you are a Dalish Inquisitor.  They all seem to regard the peace offering as more trouble than it is worth and Leliana (a potential future Divine) even suggests lying to the village to get them to accept it.   As a Dalish, I was incensed and deeply offended at their reaction but opt for Cullen in the end because when he says, I suppose we can march it in if I really want him to, I think "Yes I damn well do."   The whole point is that regardless of who was to blame in the past, the modern Dalish wish to make a peace offering and no one seems to want to respect that and ensure it is handed over in the spirit in which it is given.

 

A similar thing happens in JoH regarding an important aspect of elven history, although in that instance good old Cullen does think the truth matters, unlike Leliana who once again favours a cover up.

[Master Warder Z_]

are better than those who at least use it to try to make amends.

 

What about those who frigging told the truth for centuries and only crackpot elves thought otherwise? 

 

Call it bias if you want, the Chantry told 90% of the story as it was.

The whole point is that regardless of who was to blame in the past, the modern Dalish wish to make a peace offering 

 

It comes far too late for either side, I understand their position. That war is over and no mourning halla is going to magically revive those centuries dead from its violence, nor is the 'spirit' of those who ancestors killed them offering sympathy going to change one thing. 

[vbibbi]

Let's be honest, it's a little silly that we don't have the option to make copies of the tale and disseminate it to both parties or through the Inquisition. The game doesn't demonstrate the quasi-heretical nature of the Inquisition that well, but sharing this kind of information with the public, like sharing Ameridan's identity, would be in line with some Inquisitors' actions. Especially when we become close allies with the next Divine and possibly folded into the Chantry.

 

I'm sure having the original document would give more credence to the recipient, but if people want to believe the history they will, regardless of if it's a secondary source or not. And if they don't want to believe, they would claim the source is a fake even if it's not.

 

It would have been nice to at least have an option, if we had befriended the Dalish clan and performed some favorable war table missions towards the Chantry that we could reveal the document to both parties at once so they could both share in the knowledge at the same time.

[Mistic]

What about those who frigging told the truth for centuries and only crackpot elves thought otherwise? 

 

Call it bias if you want, the Chantry told 90% of the story as it was.

 

Then look at it from this point of view: giving it to the Chantry won't stop it from not telling the remaining 10% and won't change the Dalish' minds, while the opposite won't change the Chantry's mind but will force the Dalish to acknowledge a greater percentage of truth. It's a net gain, even if it's only to tell the Dalish: "the ones who started it where a bunch of your beloved Emerald Knights, signed by the cowards themselves who weren't honest enough to own it up and instead let the name of a good man be sullied and a war started so they wouldn't look like morons in front of their people".

[Dean_the_Young]

It's only a net gain if the Dalish actually share the complete and unvarnished text with anyone.

 

Do we have any proof that the Dalish tribe is sharing the text with other tribes, let alone humans?

[Mistic]

It's only a net gain if the Dalish actually share the complete and unvarnished text with anyone.

 

Do we have any proof that the Dalish tribe is sharing the text with other tribes, let alone humans?

 

Why is it only a net gain if they share the text? A single tribe being more aware of the truth is still more than zero  Still, it's a good point, although the same can be applied to the Chantry: the Academic Notes end in wondering if perhaps the story could be publishable, nothing else.

 

Given that, contrary to the issue about Ameridan, the ending of this quest isn't adressed in the DA Keep (correct me if I'm mistaken), I guess it won't matter. If given to the Chantry, the book will never be published, and if given to the Dalish, the whole clan will die as per Bioware tradition. If the halla was sent, someone will eat it. Only a copy will be kept in a former Inquisition library until a historian finds it centuries later. By that time it will be a historical curiosity and no one will care too much.

 

Or something like that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why is it only a net gain if they share the text? A single tribe being more aware of the truth is still more than zero  Still, it's a good point, although the same can be applied to the Chantry: the Academic Notes end in wondering if perhaps the story could be publishable, nothing else.

 

More than zero, but less than if the Chantry publishes it. Net gain is compared to alternatives, after all.

 

The Academic Notes don't really cast doubt on the Chantry spreading the truth- merely that it might be accompanied by biased analysis. Not only is this hardly unique to the chantry (see- Dalish equivocation of guilt), but it's far more publication than... whatever the Dalish will supposedly do.

 

 

Given that, contrary to the issue about Ameridan, the ending of this quest isn't adressed in the DA Keep (correct me if I'm mistaken), I guess it won't matter. If given to the Chantry, the book will never be published, and if given to the Dalish, the whole clan will die as per Bioware tradition. If the halla was sent, someone will eat it. Only a copy will be kept in a former Inquisition library until a historian finds it centuries later. By that time it will be a historical curiosity and no one will care too much.

 

Or something like that.

 

 

Don't forget the third option.

 

C: Numerous Dalish won't accept it.

 

Either because they don't hear about it because of fragmentation, don't believe it because of ideology, or don't understand it because hard copies aren't passed around.