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[Willowhugger]

Is Dragon Age moving away from Dark Fantasy essay link
 

I wrote the above essay today because I was pondering the tonal differences between Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, and Dragon Age: Inquisition. I couldn't help but notice the game had shifted seriously from dark and edgy fantasy (remember how DA:O advertised itself as Dark Fantasy--much to The Escapist's Yahtzee's ribbing?). It seems like much of the moral ambiguity was tossed out of the game even though it's still very much in place of the novels. Worse, it seems the games are less consequentialist as well. There's no "bad" choices since all of them more or less lead to the same place too.

There's no Harrowmount ruins Orzammar or Lady Isolde commits suicide.

 

It kind of undermines any real sense of being a hero since you get a gold star just for showing up.

 

Not to mention Corypheus is just Skeletor without the humor or gravitas. Even Meredith and the Darkspawn had more nuance (after all, the latter got expanded on in Awakening).

 

What do you think?

[The Baconer]

I feel like they just didn't take advantage of the events going on (two separate wars at the same time, red Lyrium spreading like a cancer across the earth), there's no politicking, and there's no sense of struggle after Haven. 

 

But let's be real tho, the Darkspawn aren't really nuanced. They're not people and they never will be. 

[Willowhugger]

Eh, the Architect made me think there's something worth saving there.

 

However, the feeling I got was they massively toned down all of the racism and corruption and brutality in the system.  It's weird when Sera is the only one acting like she grew up in a hellhole.

 

Which I think contributed to a lot of people's dislike.

We see the pretty of Orlais and not the burned-out Elven Alienages.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Pretty much choices leading to the same outcome are caused by import system and bioware (or should i say da team , because ME team was able to handle import much better) being unable to handle it , thus they cut off branches.They should just abandon import and go with canon then they could focus on outcome of choices being different , and they wouldn't have pump time and resources on import. 

 

As for darkness i would argue that dao was both dark and light (how dark and how light it would get depended on how you played) , as there were quite a lot moments where you had options that were good like dalish and Connor quests , also you could play strongly heroic character and game could end on mostly positive note while playing straight hero.

 

Also i would like to note that as Da 2 and even more so Dai cuts ability to play as bad guy in other world villain protagonist, at worst you end lighter anti-hero in Inquisition.

[Willowhugger]

Pretty much choices leading to the same outcome are caused by import system and bioware (or should i say da team , because ME team was able to handle import much better) being unable to handle it , thus they cut off branches.They should just abandon import and go with canon then they could focus on outcome of choices being different , and they wouldn't have pump time and resources on import. 

 

As for darkness i would argue that dao was both dark and light (how dark and how light it would get depended on how you played) , as there were quite a lot moments where you had options that were good like dalish and Connor quests , also you could play strongly heroic character and game could end on mostly positive note while playing straight hero.

 

Also i would like to note that as Da 2 and even more so Dai cuts ability to play as bad guy in other world villain protagonist, at worst you end lighter anti-hero in Inquisition.

 

I confess, I felt kind of constrained to be the Paragon Shepard in Dragon Age: Inquisition. I felt the original game did a nice job of making Paragon Warden to be a OPTION of play but not something which was necessarily supported. You were encouraged to be ruthless and do things which weren't always on the right like sleep with Morrigan to make her demon god baby, accept help from Flemeth, and put Bhelen on the throne were things most Lawful Good PCs still did. Still, in Inquisition, there was rarely a choice to do ruthless politicking or the necessary evil as you're Fantasy Jesus.

 

Having Celene murdered was the closest thing I could come to that and the only person who reacted with horror was Sera of all people.

 

I don't mind cutting off the branches to an extent but I'd like some consequences on a personal level if not a massive geopolitical one.

[Illegitimus]

For a start a single game is not a basis to evaluate the trend of the whole line.  Dragon Age II was actually darker than Origins in the sense that ultimately the protagonist isn't really a hero and all the sides are utterly contemptible.  That in Inquisition you don't have much of a chance to be a really bad guy is kind of counterbalanced by the fact that ultimately you turn out to be a pawn of the real villain responsible for everything who is going to go on to try to kill everyone.  And the next game is going to be set in Tevinter.  Now if you believe that by the end of the game Tevinter will have given up chattel slavery and blood magic, I have some lovely real estate in the Anderfells to sell you.  

[The Baconer]

Eh, the Architect made me think there's something worth saving there.

 

Exactly, it's not the Darkspawn who are nuanced, it's the ancient Magister coming to terms with being a monster. The Darkspawn themselves are just walking cancer, there's nothing to save. 

 

 

However, the feeling I got was they massively toned down all of the racism and corruption and brutality in the system.  It's weird when Sera is the only one acting like she grew up in a hellhole.

 

Which I think contributed to a lot of people's dislike.

We see the pretty of Orlais and not the burned-out Elven Alienages.

 

I actually think the corruption and brutality of the system is made quite apparent in the profligate a-holes we're forced to deal with. Though, not soo much with the racism. 

 

What seems to be missing is the devastation, the everyman's perspective and struggles. You can get little hints of it here and there, especially in the Hinterlands and the Emerald Graves, but even then it's marred by certain design choices that make it seem so... static, impersonal. The lack of cutscenes when questing around these areas and interacting with people doesn't help; even basic dialogue feels distant in this regard, with the camera being constantly pulled-back. Groups like the Freeman, and the rogue mages and Templars populating the Hinterlands are reduced to always-chaotic-evil mooks, which is an absolute waste. 

 

In addition, the Player Character can't really engage in morally questionable actions (not that you can't do some scummy stuff, like during the ball or in Sera's personal quest). Now, don't take that as "I wish you could do dark or evil things like in DA:O", because I think most of the "dark" choices in Origins are just childish nonsense. But... "Inquisition" has a lot of connotations in real life, but there's none of that 'flavor' to be found in-game. To be honest, I don't even know why our organization could be called an "Inquisition". 

[Willowhugger]

 

Exactly, it's not the Darkspawn who are nuanced, it's the ancient Magister coming to terms with being a monster. The Darkspawn themselves are just walking cancer, there's nothing to save. 

 

Said Ancient Magister has abandoned his Tevinter identity and self-identifies as a Darkspawn now. He's also probably forgotten he ever was one. Furthermore, he's spending a lot of his time attempting to awaken the Darkspawn. People forget the fact the Architect's whole shebang is making the Darkspawn into a race with free will and individuality.

 

His Tevinter origins are all but irrelevant.

 

People also tend to forget Corypheus is a Darkspawn as well as a Tevinter because he doesn't self-identify as a Darkspawn but the Architect certainly does. Honestly, I was hoping Corypheus would use his powers to summon an army of Darkspawn and grant them free will and souls because--well, that would have been AWESOME.

 

 

In addition, the Player Character can't really engage in morally questionable actions (not that you can't do some scummy stuff, like during the ball or in Sera's personal quest). Now, don't take that as "I wish you could do dark or evil things like in DA:O", because I think most of the "dark" choices in Origins are just childish nonsense. But... "Inquisition" has a lot of connotations in real life, but there's none of that 'flavor' to be found in-game. To be honest, I don't even know why our organization could be called an "Inquisition".

 

On this I agree.

 

I think DA takes some "influence" from the Warhammer Fantasy RPG (which is not an insult--every fantasy game takes something from Tolkien--DA also takes stuff from Martin). However, the Inquisition isn't depicted as an organization which has a ruthless side like the Warhammer Fantasy Inquisitors.

 

There's no torture chamber option in the basement or a, "Do I kill the kid possessed by the demon."

 

You'd think we'd have more Abominations to deal with, really.

[Arshei]

I noticed that when I played Witcher 3.

How W3 manage the realism of the world is awesome, there is rape, pedophile, abuse, homophobia, untolerance, everything!

Feel so real, unlike Dragon Age, that feels like they censured the game for children.

 

I would like to express why they did that but If I do im going to get a ban, the people here is pretty sensitive.

[BSpud]

How W3 manage the realism of the world is awesome, there is rape, pedophile, abuse, homophobia, untolerance, everything!

 

You Witcher fans seem to be into some real sick ****.

[Willowhugger]

I don't necessarily want Dragon Age to shy away from its welcoming attitudes towards trans, homosexuals, bisexuals, and other people who have enjoyed the setting representing them--quite the opposite. I do, however, want them to still have the place be utterly crappy in other ways. In Thedas, they'll kill you for not worshiping the right god or torture you until you do. In Thedas, they'll murder every single nonhuman they can lay their hands on because things are bad. In Thedas, they'll have a bunch of guys murder your family and steal everything you own before laughing it up because, well, they're nobles and you can't do a damned thing about it. You may also have to stab a child in the throat because it's possessed and if you free her, then she might be killed by her parents to save her soul. Thedas is an AWFUL place and that's where the draw comes from trying to make it better.
 
That's how I like it, at least.
 

You Witcher fans seem to be into some real sick ****.

Game of Thrones received many accolades from feminist groups, just as many as condemnations for violence against women, for not attempting to whitewash the Medieval period and pave over the injustices of the time frame. Life is horrible the Witcherverse because Medieval Life is horrible and not pretending nobles aren't scumbags running a protection racket on farmers who can't fight back is a pretty good idea to me as a historian. One of the reasons I had trouble with Hawke's story was because it forced you to be a friend to the nobility and one yourself versus preferring to see yourself as a peasant.

Geralt is a hero in the Witcherverse because he works AGAINST evil both supernatural and otherwise. When the only evils in Thedas are supernatural, it feels less like a authentic world and more like Care Bears with swords.

Do I want Thedas to be the Continent? No. No I don't. They're different worlds with different social values.

I do, however, want it to be more Origins and less Fluffy Shiny Happyquisition Land.

[Al Foley]

[Willowhugger]

.

 

*Solas eye roll*

Inquisition too bright and happy.

DA should be dark and edgy.

[Al Foley]

*sigh*.  I hate doing this...but have you played DA I?  

 

This is a game with body horror.  You have magic juice red lyrium which grows out of people.  You have corpses strewn about war torn battle fields, including one of a mother clutching a baby.  You have war, death, and destruction.  You have half eaten corpses (likely Dragon attacks) in the Emerald Graves.  You have dead rising when demons possess them. You have enough political machinations to sink a small Game of Thrones.  But nope...I guess that is not dark enough.  

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't necessarily want Dragon Age to shy away from its welcoming attitudes towards trans, homosexuals, bisexuals, and other people who have enjoyed the setting representing them--quite the opposite. I do, however, want them to still have the place be utterly crappy in other ways. In Thedas, they'll kill you for not worshiping the right god or torture you until you do. In Thedas, they'll murder every single nonhuman they can lay their hands on because things are bad. In Thedas, they'll have a bunch of guys murder your family and steal everything you own before laughing it up because, well, they're nobles and you can't do a damned thing about it. You may also have to stab a child in the throat because it's possessed and if you free her, then she might be killed by her parents to save her soul. Thedas is an AWFUL place and that's where the draw comes from trying to make it better.

 

I would argue about this , enforcing faith never thing (save for Qunari) in Thedas like homophobia (despite to at least small extent it should).Da was never as dark as Witcher ,GoT or even Pillars of eternity and was rather something between before mentioned and BG and ME. Yeah , but truth is that Dai failed to portray a lot of in-universe issues, making it rainbows just look at Leliana ending.

 

 

*sigh*.  I hate doing this...but have you played DA I?  

 

This is a game with body horror.  You have magic juice red lyrium which grows out of people.  You have corpses strewn about war torn battle fields, including one of a mother clutching a baby.  You have war, death, and destruction.  You have half eaten corpses (likely Dragon attacks) in the Emerald Graves.  You have dead rising when demons possess them. You have enough political machinations to sink a small Game of Thrones.  But nope...I guess that is not dark enough.  

Most of these things are common in high fantasy or idealistic fiction like Mass Effect or even D&D games (be it baldur's gate), just because game have some dark things doesn't mean it is dark, dai often shy away from darker issues and aspects of human nature. 

[Nefla]

*sigh*.  I hate doing this...but have you played DA I?  

 

This is a game with body horror.  You have magic juice red lyrium which grows out of people.  You have corpses strewn about war torn battle fields, including one of a mother clutching a baby.  You have war, death, and destruction.  You have half eaten corpses (likely Dragon attacks) in the Emerald Graves.  You have dead rising when demons possess them. You have enough political machinations to sink a small Game of Thrones.  But nope...I guess that is not dark enough.  

Things like the lyrium monsters and the walking corpses tend to disconnect people because they're so fantastical. You have random corpses it's true, but it's background dressing, it doesn't really resonate (especially with how far away the camera is). There needs to be a believable human element to get me invested otherwise it's just numbers and fantasy. Nameless grunts turning into nameless red lyrium monsters I don't care about, I don't believe it because the game didn't bother to make it real for me, it's just a cartoon. The plight of the casteless dwarves or city elves in DA:O on the other hand, I was given a glimpse into that world and that suffering and I cared. I cared a lot more about Tamlen from DA:O's Dalish origin being slowly corrupted and turning into a shriek than I ever would about a nameless mook with red lyrium sticking out of him. For me, these things have to be given care and impact, they have to be built up, I have to know the person suffering on some level otherwise it's just a cheap cartoon.

[BSpud]

*sigh*.  I hate doing this...but have you played DA I?  

 

This is a game with body horror.  You have magic juice red lyrium which grows out of people.  You have corpses strewn about war torn battle fields, including one of a mother clutching a baby.  You have war, death, and destruction.  You have half eaten corpses (likely Dragon attacks) in the Emerald Graves.  You have dead rising when demons possess them. You have enough political machinations to sink a small Game of Thrones.  But nope...I guess that is not dark enough.  

 

BUT MUH DEMON T1TTIES

[Al Foley]

BUT MUH DEMON T1TTIES

I was going to go with 'muh broodmothers but thought it a bit on the nose.'.  

[Ashagar]

Things like the lyrium monsters and the walking corpses tend to disconnect people because they're so fantastical. You have random corpses it's true, but it's background dressing, it doesn't really resonate. There needs to be a believable human element to get me invested otherwise it's just numbers and fantasy. Nameless grunts turning into nameless red lyrium monsters I don't care about, I don't believe it because the game didn't bother to make it real for me, it's just a cartoon. The plight of the casteless dwarves or city elves in DA:O on the other hand, I was given a glimpse into that world and that suffering and I cared. I cared a lot more about Tamlen from DA:O's Dalish origin being slowly corrupted and turning into a shriek than I ever would about a nameless mook with red lyrium sticking out of him. For me, these things have to be given care and impact, they have to be built up, I have to know the person suffering on some level otherwise it's just a cheap cartoon.

 

So its not horrifying or disturbing as long as you don't know the people its happening to? I'd have say that's horrifying but it is rather human sadly and part of what allowed regimes in real life to kill hundreds, thousands or even millions of people. As Stalin stated one death is a tragedy but a million is a statistic.

[Willowhugger]

*sigh*.  I hate doing this...but have you played DA I?  

 

This is a game with body horror.  You have magic juice red lyrium which grows out of people.  You have corpses strewn about war torn battle fields, including one of a mother clutching a baby.  You have war, death, and destruction.  You have half eaten corpses (likely Dragon attacks) in the Emerald Graves.  You have dead rising when demons possess them. You have enough political machinations to sink a small Game of Thrones.  But nope...I guess that is not dark enough.  

 

All of which is handled in a clinical and detached fashion. You don't know any of the Red Templars. Hell, you may hate the Red Templars because you're a Mageneto type like myself. All of this stuff is very basic high fantasy stuff. DISNEY has had hordes of zombies and ghouls in the past. None of this has the same sort of impact as the Tower's corruption when you're a mage, the massacre of the Couslands when they're your parents, or the slaughter of the Elven Alienage when you're a City Elf.

 

Also, DA:I all "magical" evil versus the kinds of ones we encounter in the real world.

 

Hell, there's the problem with things like the Freemen of the Dale are just treated as Orcs. We don't get any real sense of who they are, why they're doing stuff, or how.

 

So its not horrifying or disturbing as long as you don't know the people its happening to? I'd have say that's horrifying but it is rather human sadly and part of what allowed regimes in real life to kill hundreds, thousands or even millions of people. As Stalin stated one death is a tragedy but a million is a statistic.

 

Given it's all fictional people, it's not so much horrifying as a case of bad storytelling.

 

A vampire isn't scary.

Vampire Lucy who was your friend 2 days ago and is now eating a baby is scary.

[MileyChicken]

BUT MUH DEMON T1TTIES

JOE ZEE SWEETHART Y U NO PUT OUT? ITZ DA FLAG

[Willowhugger]

It's a good example actually.

 

The Brood Mother in Dragon Age: Origins is terrifying and sad.

The Brood Mother in Dragon Age: Awakening is silly.

The difference?

Hespith.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's a good example actually.

 

The Brood Mother in Dragon Age: Origins is terrifying and sad.

The Brood Mother in Dragon Age: Awakening is silly.

The difference?

Hespith.

 

Well , it helps also that BroodMother from base game didn't act like Rita from Power Rangers.

[Willowhugger]

Well , it helps also that BroodMother from base game didn't act like Rita from Power Rangers.

 

Awakening Broodmother and Corypheus get married!

They will disrupt the School Dance at Skyhold!

BWHAHAHAH!

[Ashagar]

Well , it helps also that BroodMother from base game didn't act like Rita from Power Rangers.

 

What happens when you cross the zerg queen with Rita... yep that about sums up the brood mother from awakening though I admittedly am firmly in the camp of monsters gore and ghosts are not scary, its the build up  that is scary because nothing they can throw at you is going to be remotely as disturbing or scary as what your mind will come up with.

 

Its why I generally view the three spookiest areas of the series as being the orphanage, the haunted manor and the haunted chateau.