359 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

The Circle wasn't actually out of control at the time of the Right's invocation, or at the very least, there was no open conflict within the Circle that would have forced the Templars to act. Meredith called for the Right simply because an apostate Warden decided to act against the city, and then later framed her reasoning around appeasing a city that she assumed would turn against the Circle mages by association. Basically, if some random mage wandered into the city and started wreaking havoc (which is pretty much Anders' case), she would have used it as an excuse to invoke the Right, regardless of whether or not the mages in the Circle were even connected to that apostate. 

[actionhero112]

Well, at least you make it easy 

 

By the logic here, adherence to Chantry law is irrelevant, and all that other stuff is just a red herring. Purging a Circle is perfectly justified for the simple fact that it's filled with mages, as all mages have the capacity to be bloodmages. So the only good and proper way to deal with mages is to preemptively eliminate them and remove their potential to be maleficars. After all, you can't know that 100% of the population within a Circle isn't a bloodmage, so it stands to reason that by removing them, you only have a greater chance of saving the world from their [probable] wicked bloody badness. 

 

Isn't this hyperbolic?

 

The Circle in Kirkwall had all but fallen apart, the leader proven to be a blood mage. This isn't some circle without a history in maleficarum either, you've seen evidence of corruption and abused blood magic throughout the entire game, and it has personally taken things from you. What is the easy answer here, killing one person or purposefully antagonizing an entire faction for a member of a mage group led by a blood mage?  

 

It's not this clear cut. The Kirkwall circle isn't a law abiding circle without corruption and it's templar order isn't without its share of abusers. Playing the mage templar conflict in Kirkwall off as binary is a misrepresentation. 

[KaiserShep]

Isn't this hyperbolic?

 

The Circle in Kirkwall had all but fallen apart, the leader proven to be a blood mage. This isn't some circle without a history in maleficarum either, you've seen evidence of corruption and abused blood magic throughout the entire game, and it has personally taken things from you. What is the easy answer here, killing one person or purposefully antagonizing an entire faction for a member of a mage group led by a blood mage?  

 

It's not this clear cut. The Kirkwall circle isn't a law abiding circle without corruption and it's templar order isn't without its share of abusers. Playing the mage templar conflict in Kirkwall off as binary is a misrepresentation. 

I'm responding more to the reasoning for allowing Meredith to kill Bethany, with whom Hawke does have an established history and has more reason to lean against belief that she's a maleficar, and that her being a mage is insufficient evidence to support having her executed. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

The Circle wasn't actually out of control, or at the very least, there was no open conflict within the Circle that would have forced the Templars to act. Meredith called for the Right because an apostate Warden decided to act against the city, and then later framed her reasoning around appeasing a city that would no doubt just turn against the Circle mages by association. 

Circle was out of control , circle was infested with blood mages and corruption on every level, pretty much constant threat from blood mages or abomnations we had to deal in kirkwall is pretty much telling.Meredith reason was different and it is clear she was just fishing to pull of RoA , but that doesn't change RoA wasn't justified pretty much Meredith "did right thing for wrong reasons".

 

 

 

I'm responding more to the reasoning for allowing Meredith to kill Bethany, with whom Hawke does have an established history and has more reason to lean against belief that she's a maleficar, and that her being a mage is insufficient evidence to support having her executed. 

 

The warden had established history with Jowan he was Blood mage , same story for Dorian and his father. Just because you think you know someone doesn't mean person can't be blood mage. Hawke has very little contact with Bethany for years since she was taken to the circle, so she doesn't know what she did there or even how she could have changed.

[straykat]

Narratively, it probably makes more sense to spare Bethany. At that point, Meredith has no other reason to turn on you.

[KaiserShep]

Circle was out of control , circle was infested with blood mages and corruption on every level, pretty much constant threat from blood mages or abomnations we had to deal in kirkwall is pretty much telling.Meredith reason was different and it is clear she was just fishing to pull of RoA , but that doesn't change RoA wasn't justified pretty much Meredith "did right thing for wrong reasons".

 

 

 

 

The warden had established history with Jowan he was Blood mage , same story for Dorian and his father. Just because you think you know someone doesn't mean person can't be blood mage.

 

This doesn't reconcile execution without proof to incriminate the accused. 

[straykat]

Don't mind stray. He was bitten by a viddathari elf. 

 

By viddathari elf, do you mean the writing the series has been reduced to?

 

Then I agree Damn elves.

[TheKomandorShepard]

This doesn't reconcile execution without proof to incriminate the accused. 

Once again , yes it does that is whole point RoA is to exterminate circle (that Bethany was part of) that was deemed as lost cause not search if someone is guilty or not.

[actionhero112]

I'm responding more to the reasoning for allowing Meredith to kill Bethany, with whom Hawke does have an established history and has more reason to lean against belief that she's a maleficar, and that her being a mage is insufficient evidence to support having her executed. 

 

Doesn't this depend on the Hawke you played though, and what rivalry and relationships you've had throughout the game? It's a brutal route, but I have played a F!Hawke that leaned towards Templars and resented her sister enough to let that decision be made. Bethany has spent quite a long time with the Circle at this point, under a mage that you've just been shocked to find out is a Blood Mage. 

[Andraste_Reborn]

**Mod edit**

 

Could you perhaps consider not using a word used to demean the intellectually disabled to insult people with?

 

(I mean, you could also consider not insulting people just because they like a character you don't like, but this is the BSN. I do not expect miracles.)

[ShadowLordXII]

Wow , so much pro-mage propaganda. In first place chantry didn't taught Mages to fear themselves all chantry teaches on that matter are dangers that come with being mage. (dangers that are real not chantry just come up with)

 

Then funniest part is that you blame chantry for more blood magic , madness and chaos despite that Tevinter was always full of those things long before chantry even existed and chantry methodology prevented a lot of disastesr and never lead to disaster on world-scale in contrast to Tevinter that does that a lot.

 

Wrong. I'm merely pointing out what the Chantry methods led to.

 

And I never said that there is no basis for fear of mages. In fact, I said that there is warrant for healthy fear and caution. The Chantry merely went the wrong way and fed the wrong wolf (Two wolves tale reference for the win!) which per labeling theory and self-fulfilled prophecy (real world valid phenomenon by the way) ended up with the opposite of what the Chantry wanted to prevent.

 

The Chantry directly fed the very things that they feared from mages through their practices and methods. Pay attention to the games and you'll see this from Origins through to Inquisition. I mean remember Kirkwall? Remember how Jowan turned to blood magic out of fear of being lobotomized? Remember what drove Anders to start a war because of his utter helplessness and despair with the situation? Inquisition in fact spends a lot of time pointing out that the Chantry needs to adjust its methods to keep from repeating past mistakes and the new Divine will do just that. For instance, Vivienne largely stays the course and focuses power around herself; Cassandra makes moderate changes (yay! Another moderate like me!); and Leliana abolishes the Circles altogether among other radical changes 

 

What happened in Tevinter doesn't excuse self-defeating propaganda and self-destruction. Tevinter was an extreme and the Chantry is another extreme, neither one is more valid than the other since BOTH "mage mindsets" have led to a lot of disaster and death. Even your proposed "mage extermination" is just another extreme asking to go horribly wrong.

 

Magic is a natural part of the world and people need to accept it. They also need to deal with in a way that doesn't burn down the house.

 

The Chantry's actions are akin to a child kicking a dog because it might bite him. That child should not be surprised when the dog is provoked to bite and takes a limb for lunch. 

[straykat]

Doesn't this depend on the Hawke you played though, and what rivalry and relationships you've had throughout the game? It's a brutal route, but I have played a F!Hawke that leaned towards Templars and resented her sister enough to let that decision be made. Bethany has spent quite a long time with the Circle at this point, under a mage that you've just been shocked to find out is a Blood Mage. 

 

What did she resent her for? Serious question. I mean, like what specifics?

[KaiserShep]

Doesn't this depend on the Hawke you played though, and what rivalry and relationships you've had throughout the game? It's a brutal route, but I have played a F!Hawke that leaned towards Templars and resented her sister enough to let that decision be made. Bethany has spent quite a long time with the Circle at this point, under a mage that you've just been shocked to find out is a Blood Mage. 

 

I'm hard pressed to think of a good angle to establish a Hawke that is somehow resentful of Bethany, or at least enough that allowing her to die would be a logical conclusion of that. I guess you'd really have to go pro-Templar everything and really work toward opposing everything she may stand for, whether it be mage-related or otherwise, but still, it's a stretch.

[rapscallioness]

I mean if you have powers above that of other people, you are innately more dangerous than them. 

 

The argument is not whether all mages are good or bad. They exist on a diverse morality spectrum like every other group. The argument is that a bad mage is much more threatening than a bad individual without magical ability. A magical child who throws a tantrum can bring down an entire region, while a nonmagical child can never reach such destruction. 

When you compound that with issues like demonic possession and the corruptive qualities of blood magic (not that it is innately bad either) mages are more dangerous than other people just by virtue of being mages. 

 

Noo, I think the real argument here is whether, or not, someone deserves to be killed/murdered not because of something they have done, but rather because of something they Might do. It's saying it's alright to actually kill somebody that hasn't even done anything wrong. Let's just chase down every Robe we see, run em up and swing 'em from a tree why don't we?

 

Kill 'em! Because they Might do some shite.

 

That's crazy. That kind of thinking is a far greater threat to the world.

[actionhero112]

What did she resent her for? Serious question. I mean, like what specifics?

Well I roleplayed that my Hawke resented Bethany for receiving all the attention from her mage father. Later as she grew up, she resented Bethany for her powers which was tinged with a bit of jealously, as well as the lengths their family had to go to to avoid templar attention. 

 

This is why my Hawke joined with the army, to get away from her family and her tagalong brother Carver fell in behind her. 

 

Then when they arrive at Kirkwall, that resentment was further reinforced by the responsibility thrust upon her as the new acting head of the Hawke family. This compounded with her relationship with Fenris created an impossible schism between the two sisters. 

 

I mean it's just how my F!Hawke thought about her sister. But it's a factor of why she made that ultimate choice. 

[straykat]

I'm hard pressed to think of a good angle to establish a Hawke that is somehow resentful of Bethany, or at least enough that allowing her to die would be a logical conclusion of that. I guess you'd really have to go pro-Templar everything and really work toward opposing everything she may stand for, whether it be mage-related or otherwise, but still, it's a stretch.

 

I might be bad for my choice of words (apparently), but I'm with you here. I don't get it. She's practically geared to be anything but endearing on some level.

 

i mean, i don't think you have to love her, but resentment... leading to execution? It's just comical. Not exactly dark to me. It's hard to take seriously.

[straykat]

Well I roleplayed that my Hawke resented Bethany for receiving all the attention from her mage father. Later as she grew up, she resented Bethany for her powers which was tinged with a bit of jealously, as well as the lengths their family had to go to to avoid templar attention. 

 

This is why my Hawke joined with the army, to get away from her family and her tagalong brother Carver fell in behind her. 

 

Then when they arrive at Kirkwall, that resentment was further reinforced by the responsibility thrust upon her as the new acting head of the Hawke family. This compounded with her relationship with Fenris created an impossible schism between the two sisters. 

 

I mean it's just how my F!Hawke thought about her sister. But it's a factor of why she made that ultimate choice. 

 

Well, I'm trying to understand that.

 

Was she a warrior?

 

One of mine was a rogue.. I almost have to thank Bethany with how I roleplay it. She wouldn't be nearly as tricky and inclined to subterfuge, if not for the Apostate family. Maybe a warrior is different.

[actionhero112]

Noo, I think the real argument here is whether, or not, someone deserves to be killed/murdered not because of something they have done, but rather because of something they Might do. It's saying it's alright to actually kill somebody that hasn't even done anything wrong. Let's just chase down every Robe we see, run em up and swing 'em from a tree why don't we?

 

Kill 'em! Because they Might do some shite.

 

That's crazy. That kind of thinking is a far greater threat to the world.

 

We do that all the time in Dragon Age. It's not a world where evidence is easily obtained, sometimes decisions must be made on scant evidence and your gut, especially those on the battlefield. We cannot always arrange a sitdown, or parley between parties. 

 

In our society, of course this is wrong. But Thedas and the Free Marshes is not of our society. Bringing in those qualities defeats the purpose of roleplaying, I am not playing myself. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Wrong. I'm merely pointing out what the Chantry methods led to.

 

And I never said that there is no basis for fear of mages. In fact, I said that there is warrant for healthy fear and caution. The Chantry merely went the wrong way and fed the wrong wolf (Two wolves tale reference for the win!) which per labeling theory and self-fulfilled prophecy (real world valid phenomenon by the way) ended up with the opposite of what the Chantry wanted to prevent.

 

The Chantry directly fed the very things that they feared from mages through their practices and methods. Pay attention to the games and you'll see this from Origins through to Inquisition. I mean remember Kirkwall? Remember how Jowan turned to blood magic out of fear of being lobotomized? Remember what drove Anders to start a war because of his utter helplessness and despair with the situation? Inquisition in fact spends a lot of time pointing out that the Chantry needs to adjust its methods to keep from repeating past mistakes and the new Divine will do just that. For instance, Vivienne largely stays the course and focuses power around herself; Cassandra makes moderate changes (yay! Another moderate like me!); and Leliana abolishes the Circles altogether among other radical changes 

 

What happened in Tevinter doesn't excuse self-defeating propaganda and self-destruction. Tevinter was an extreme and the Chantry is another extreme, neither one is more valid than the other since BOTH "mage mindsets" have led to a lot of disaster and death. Even your proposed "mage extermination" is just another extreme asking to go horribly wrong.

 

Magic is a natural part of the world and people need to accept it. They also need to deal with in a way that doesn't burn down the house.

 

The Chantry's actions are akin to a child kicking a dog because it might bite him. That child should not be surprised when the dog is provoked to bite and takes a limb for lunch. 

 

Wrong , of course on your part. In first place number of mages hate and fear themselves is tiny, were saw about 2 examples in series and one of them hates himself because of what he did in past rather than chantry telling him that.Majority of blood mages and corrupt mages have very little to do with low-self esteem caused by chantry and went for blood magic because typical human weakness or vices.

 

Actually you are wrong , Jowan became blood mage because he was envious of mage warden (or not warden) talent, he tells that you in Redcliffe.Anders went nuts because he was stupid enough to let himself to become possessed not because of chantry. Chantry in fact prevents much more blood magic and magical disasters than it causes , pretty much perfectly shown in magi origin when two students discusses temptation of blood magic and one of studens shows some interest in it, another studed used as argument against it templars and punishment for it.

 

Tevinter is just a consequence of mages freedom and by that mages having much more opportunities to abuse and/or indulge illegal activites and act upon their desires. My solution isn't going to go wrong , of course as long properly carried what requires proper system , because you need to kill mage only once to that mage not being threat anymore.

 

Not rly ,people don't have to accept anything if they can control/contain it.

 

Chantry actions are rather like actions of smart and responsible person that keeps dangerous animal or object contained so it doesn't hurt people.

[KaiserShep]

I honestly forgot why Jowan does anything. I wasn't sure that anyone in-game even cared either. 

[rapscallioness]

We do that all the time in Dragon Age. It's not a world where evidence is easily obtained, sometimes decisions must be made on scant evidence and your gut, especially those on the battlefield. We cannot always arrange a sitdown, or parley between parties. 

 

In our society, of course this is wrong. But Thedas and the Free Marshes is not of our society. Bringing in those qualities defeats the purpose of roleplaying, I am not playing myself. 

 

You were saying the argument is about whether, or not, mages are more dangerous because they are mages. Another poster was making the argument that it is okay to kill mages because they are mages. That was enough reason to kill them.

 

That's what I was talking about. Not your resent Bethany rp.

 

edit: and I think that is wrong in Thedas, too.

[straykat]

That's what I was talking about. Not your resent Bethany rp.

 

To be fair, I pressed the issue.

[actionhero112]

You were saying the argument is about whether, or not, mages are more dangerous because they are mages. Another poster was making the argument that it is okay to kill mages because they are mages. That was enough reason to kill them.

 

That's what I was talking about. Not your resent Bethany rp.

From what I've gather they see the answer to the mage templar conflict as the complete destruction of one party. 

 

Who knows how many lives that might or might not save in future conflict. No more abominations, no more maleficarum. No more conflict between mages and templars.

 

Who's to say whether that's the right or wrong answer. America dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan in WWII rather than engage further in the conflict. People around the world right now are engaging in hostile action where they kill other people for what they feel is right.

 

We want the world to be binary, to be a clear right and wrong. But it's not and it's that's true for Dragon Age as well. It depends on your perspective. Their perspective isn't wrong because it differs from yours, it just differs from yours. 

[ShadowLordXII]

snip

 

Believe what you want. This debates going nowhere.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Believe what you want. This debates going nowhere.

I don't need to belive in that, those were just facts and statistics and they are on my side.