359 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

From what I've gather they see the answer to the mage templar conflict as the complete destruction of one party. 

 

Who knows how many lives that might or might not save in future conflict. No more abominations, no more maleficarum. No more conflict between mages and templars.

 

Who's to say whether that's the right or wrong answer. America dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan in WWII rather than engage further in the conflict. People around the world right now are engaging in hostile action where they kill other people for what they feel is right.

 

We want the world to be binary, to be a clear right and wrong. But it's not and it's that's true for Dragon Age as well. It depends on your perspective. Their perspective isn't wrong because it differs from yours, it just differs from yours. 

 

Seems like a very Qunari like that stance. Did you side with them too? They're the only ones close to thinking that way. Not the Chantry (though I wouldn't doubt some Templars would be happier as Qunari).

[ShadowLordXII]

I don't need to belive in that, those were just facts and statistics and they are on my side.

 

No they are not.

 

But since you won't listen to me or pay attention to facts in-game, I'm done wasting my time.

[actionhero112]

Seems like a very Qunari like that stance. Did you side with them too? They're the only ones close to thinking that way. Not the Chantry (though I wouldn't doubt some Templars would be happier as Qunari).

 

Who I side with is dependent on what kind of character I am playing. 

[straykat]

Who I side with is dependent on what kind of character I am playing. 

 

The kind that would kill Bethany, I mean. The kind that would villainize (or attempt to wipe out) the other side. Sounds like Arvaaard (the Qunari.. not the poster here.. but maybe that too).

[TheKomandorShepard]

No they are not.

 

But since you won't listen to me or pay attention to facts in-game, I'm done wasting my time.

Yes they are , that you refuse to belive in it like Luke Skywalker when Vader told him truth isn't my problem.

 

Actually you are one who doesn't pay attetion to facts that are given in the game (in favor of things you prefer to see), to not search far you claims about Jowan motivation for turning into blood mage was wrong and i gave real reason.

[kimgoold]

I'll just be glad when the Realism everyone wants in armour is universally applied, I hate the white washed disney universe we currently have. In DAO the CE origins seemed more honest of a medieval/feudal society and attitudes to me; The scum bag noble coming to claim his "rights" with the bride and killing anyone and everyone without any outcry from the society and religion at large. Infact the victims facing executions for defending themselves and loved ones. Life was short, cheap and very nasty.

[ShadowLordXII]

I'll just be glad when the Realism everyone wants in armour is universally applied, I hate the white washed disney universe we currently have. In DAO the CE origins seemed more honest of a medieval/feudal society and attitudes to me; The scum bag noble coming to claim his "rights" with the bride and killing anyone and everyone without any outcry from the society and religion at large. In fact the victims facing executions for defending themselves and loved ones. Life was short, cheap and very nasty.

 

Killing Vaughen was worth it. That rapist jerk ruined my City Elf's wedding.

 

And jokes on him, the City Elf can become bann of the Alienage after offing not one, but two cruel and evil arls. (technically Vaughen wasn't an arl, but he was the arl's son and heir, so close enough. Not to mention the possibility that Vaughen hired Antivan Crows to kill his father)

 

Origins was dark, but it wasn't nowhere near as hopelessly dark as ASOIAF. Origins is closer to a reconstruction tale than it is a deconstruction.

[Auztin]

To me,it is played out differently between games because playable character is in a different position & different role.The Warden was essentially a soldier/recruiter.Hawke was a city hero/criminal.The Inquisitor is a hero/politician.

[Willowhugger]

Wrong , of course on your part. In first place number of mages hate and fear themselves is tiny, were saw about 2 examples in series and one of them hates himself because of what he did in past rather than chantry telling him that.Majority of blood mages and corrupt mages have very little to do with low-self esteem caused by chantry and went for blood magic because typical human weakness or vices.

 

Actually you are wrong , Jowan became blood mage because he was envious of mage warden (or not warden) talent, he tells that you in Redcliffe.Anders went nuts because he was stupid enough to let himself to become possessed not because of chantry. Chantry in fact prevents much more blood magic and magical disasters than it causes , pretty much perfectly shown in magi origin when two students discusses temptation of blood magic and one of studens shows some interest in it, another studed used as argument against it templars and punishment for it.

 

Tevinter is just a consequence of mages freedom and by that mages having much more opportunities to abuse and/or indulge illegal activites and act upon their desires. My solution isn't going to go wrong , of course as long properly carried what requires proper system , because you need to kill mage only once to that mage not being threat anymore.

 

Not rly ,people don't have to accept anything if they can control/contain it.

 

Chantry actions are rather like actions of smart and responsible person that keeps dangerous animal or object contained so it doesn't hurt people.

 

 

The problem with so much of the Chantry's propaganda against mages is it depends on the idea Tevinter is objectively worse than Orlais or Fereldan. Our encounters with Dorian are showing that, while Tevinter is a cruddy place to live for some, it doesn't seem that objectively worse than life as a City Elf for most people which is done to people by humans to elves rather than anyone with mages. If mages are going to rise to the top of the food chain in a system, what happens without mages?

Then the top of the food chain is dominated by warriors.

There's a monster who will always abuse, control, and mutilate the weak because it is Always Chaotic Evil and can't be trusted with power.

 

And this monster is not a mage.

It is a human,

[Willowhugger]

Cole inhabits the body of a mage who starved to death in the White Spire. Bull grew up with the Qun and was so shaken by what he's seen on Seheron that he willingly went and got himself re-educated to try and move past it. Varric is from Kirkwall. Solas is from a time when civil war and slavery were commonplace.

 

In what way is Sera the only one from a hell hole?

 

Cole is a Compassion Spirit who barely reacts like he's ever been human and you have to dig to get to that story.

Bull also touts how much he LOVES the Qun and treats re-education like treatment for PTSD.

 

Varric is made the Viscount of Kirkwall because it's so awesome.

 

Solas wants to return to that time period toot sweet.

[fhs33721]

Cole is a Compassion Spirit who barely reacts like he's ever been human and you have to dig to get to that story.

If by "you have to dig to get that story" you mean "do his companion quest" then yes, you "have to dig".

[TheKomandorShepard]

The problem with so much of the Chantry's propaganda against mages is it depends on the idea Tevinter is objectively worse than Orlais or Fereldan. Our encounters with Dorian are showing that, while Tevinter is a cruddy place to live for some, it doesn't seem that objectively worse than life as a City Elf for most people which is done to people by humans to elves rather than anyone with mages. If mages are going to rise to the top of the food chain in a system, what happens without mages?

Then the top of the food chain is dominated by warriors.

There's a monster who will always abuse, control, and mutilate the weak because it is Always Chaotic Evil and can't be trusted with power.

 

And this monster is not a mage.

It is a human,

 

Tevinter is worse for majority of people than Orlais and especially Ferelden. Aside from slavery even Orlesian nobles don't go for such pointless things like killing children at their parties for kicks. City elves despite their lives may suck still can leave , when slaves in Tevinter can't plus nobles outside tevinter won't use you as battery or cover you in lyrium tattoos. So even Orlais doesn't match tevinter in its cruelty. And that aside from fact that Tevinter is responsible for almost every world-threatening disaster.

[MattH]

To me,it is played out differently between games because playable character is in a different position & different role.The Warden was essentially a soldier/recruiter.Hawke was a city hero/criminal.The Inquisitor is a hero/politician.

A voice of reason. What are you doing here?

[straykat]

The Inquisitior is no politician. That's exactly what this game lacks. Being crowned a messiah figure within the first hour and just waving your dick around is not how politics generally work. And simply picking sides only for the sake of the "Breach" plot, isn't really how I expected the mage/templar war to get resolved either. People argued over that here for 2 or 3 years, and that's what it amounted to?

 

It's got about as much as depth as some daydream from a highschool kid, who wished he could rule the world. It's made even more ridiculous because of the extra races. These people wouldn't know anything and the only reason they do is because they're controlled by human players. None of them having a charming quality "outsider" like Sigrun, or Merrill, or Sten, or Oghren. They have to be unique snowflakes..with all the qualities to be masters of the universe.. residing over things that don't matter to them one bit... which just further shows how hand wavey and fluffy the whole story is.

[Willowhugger]

Tevinter is worse for majority of people than Orlais and especially Ferelden. Aside from slavery even Orlesian nobles don't go for such pointless things like killing children at their parties for kicks. City elves despite their lives may suck still can leave , when slaves in Tevinter can't plus nobles outside tevinter won't use you as battery or cover you in lyrium tattoos. So even Orlais doesn't match tevinter in its cruelty. And that aside from fact that Tevinter is responsible for almost every world-threatening disaster.

 

Actually, we have signs slavery is no different from Serfdom as practiced in Orlais. Serfs and peasants have no rights compared to the chevaliers in Tevinter and that just means the word is different--they practice slavery in Orlais for all intents and purposes. Also, blood magic is officially proscribed in Tevinter and they don't do any of those silly For the Evulz things you're describing. Blood magic is just a weapon they utilize, which is understandable given the Qunari and Orlaisian threat.

 

Also, Orlais practices apartheid on its elven population, treating them like animals where it's even worse than in Ferelda while Tevinter treats elves no different from humans.

 

As for Tevinter being responsible for every world threatening disaster, the fact the Taint predate the Tevinter Empire mean that they're not responsible for them. Dumat just manipulated the magisters into doing it. They're also not responsible for the Fall of Arlathan.

 

In short, if it's a choice between Orlais and Tevinter, maybe you should consider Tevinter as the better candidate.

[Willowhugger]

If by "you have to dig to get that story" you mean "do his companion quest" then yes, you "have to dig".

 

Yeah, it's annoying as hell that Cole's horrific mind-numbing NIGHTMARISH backstory from Asunder is glossed over. He doesn't hate Templars, he doesn't act like a serial killer, and he doesn't do anything really terrible in the game as the broken individual he is. It's like if you had, say, Bane from Batman in your party and he didn't murder anyone or use Venom.

 

The Cole from the books would be euthanizing people left and right instead of making playful whimsical puzzles.

 

A lot of the really DARK DARK stuff from the novels was glossed over like The Masked Empire's twists on Briala and Celene's relation and Asunder's treatment of the mages.

Hell, they don't even touch on the cure for Tranquility.
 

[Dabrikishaw]

Never thought I'd find anyone here defending TheKomandorShepard's impossible mage genocide ideas.

 

Not that I have a problem with him about it, I just can't get behind something that's currently impossible to do.

[Willowhugger]

Never thought I'd find anyone here defending TheKomandorShepard's impossible mage genocide ideas.

 

Not that I have a problem with him about it, I just can't get behind something that's currently impossible to do.

 

I perfectly understand his views. Mages are the future and Muggles are the past. The Muggles know it is their destiny to be enslaved and eventually destroyed so they fight back.

 

FOOLS!

 

 

But did anyone else feel Mages were kind of white-washed in this game? One of the things which made the Templar point of view ambiguous was that they were RIGHT that mages ARE dangerous. They have the potential of being possessed by demons and plunging the world into utter madness as well as chaos. I mean, yes, it was kind of directly similar to how Psykers are treated in Warhammer 40K but that's not a bad place to get your ideas from.

 

Here, magic seemed like it was just...well. magic.

 

The mages are never shown as inherently dangerous and potentially risking people save for the fact they can throw ice at people. Where's the Abominations NOT caused by the Fade Rifts?

 

Where's the children who enslave and kill their families due to making a pact with Demons?

Where's the Demon Orphanage from the Alienage?

[Willowhugger]

Narratively, it probably makes more sense to spare Bethany. At that point, Meredith has no other reason to turn on you.

 

Evil Hawke kills Bethany so she can be Viscount.

 

Evil Hawke kills Bethany because she's sick of her sanctimonious prattling.

Evil Hawke betrays Fenris to slavery because, honestly, she wants that mansion.

Evil Hawke helps Anders blow up the Chantry because, why not?

 

Evil Hawke massacres the elves of the dalish because they're pointy ears and she wants that Eluvian for herself.

 

Really, people keep assuming he's their friend when it's all about the Sovereigns.

 

 

Best Evil Hawke?

Blood Mage Evil Fem Hawke who kills Bethany and sides with the Templars to rule with Sebastian who she manipulated into being her consort to take over Starkhaven

 

She also was with Fenris solely to .sell him into slavery.

 

Why?

It amused her.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Actually, we have signs slavery is no different from Serfdom as practiced in Orlais. Serfs and peasants have no rights compared to the chevaliers in Tevinter and that just means the word is different--they practice slavery in Orlais for all intents and purposes. Also, blood magic is officially proscribed in Tevinter and they don't do any of those silly For the Evulz things you're describing. Blood magic is just a weapon they utilize, which is understandable given the Qunari and Orlaisian threat.

 

Also, Orlais practices apartheid on its elven population, treating them like animals where it's even worse than in Ferelda while Tevinter treats elves no different from humans.

 

As for Tevinter being responsible for every world threatening disaster, the fact the Taint predate the Tevinter Empire mean that they're not responsible for them. Dumat just manipulated the magisters into doing it. They're also not responsible for the Fall of Arlathan.

 

In short, if it's a choice between Orlais and Tevinter, maybe you should consider Tevinter as the better candidate.

 

It is different because people are allowed to do what they want in contrast to being possession.Chivaliers get away with things because they have special privileges not because others don't have rights. Blood magic "prohibition" in tevinter is laughable at best, that "law" is probably only carried to take out rivals , pretty much people that were in tevinter confirmed that blood mages openly preform blood magic and sacrifices at their parties and yes they do Fenris was witness.

 

What means nothing because Tevinter treats humans as crap as well , only exception are mages wait not even mages, only noble mages.

 

It doesn't not matter whether taint existed before they went to the black city what matters is that they were one who brought it to Thedas and started blights in process. Their power hunger fueled it and magic allowed to act upon that causing blights.

 

Lets see

Tevinter:Slavery , impossibility of advancement on social ladder unless you are mage , Blood magic , puppy kicking nobility , abomnations and experiments on people.

Orlais: Ahole but mostly not sadistic nobles, possibility of advancment on social ladder and there is no danger of me being enslaved.

 

I think i would prefer holiday in Orlais.

[Willowhugger]

It is different because people are allowed to do what they want in contrast to being possession.Chivaliers get away with things because they have special privileges not because others don't have rights. Blood magic "prohibition" in tevinter is laughable at best, that "law" is probably only carried to take out rivals , pretty much people that were in tevinter confirmed that blood mages openly preform blood magic and sacrifices at their parties and yes they do Fenris was witness.

 

What means nothing because Tevinter treats humans as crap as well , only exception are mages wait not even mages, only noble mages.

 

It doesn't not matter whether taint existed before they went to the black city what matters is that they were one who brought it to Thedas and started blights in process. Their power hunger fueled it and magic allowed to act upon that causing blights.

 

Lets see

Tevinter:Slavery , impossibility of advancement on social ladder unless you are mage , Blood magic , puppy kicking nobility , abomnations and experiments on people.

Orlais: Ahole but mostly not sadistic nobles, possibility of advancment on social ladder and there is no danger of me being enslaved.

 

I think i would prefer holiday in Orlais.

 

1. Lack of Rights vs. Privileges are two sides of the same coin. You can say a Chevalier has special privileges or you can say a serf has no right to complain. Same difference.

 

2. We've seen Tevinter parties in the comics and while Fenris was witness to some pretty gruesome stuff, the Tevinter parties by and large DON'T have that sort of craziness. Any more than, presumed Vaughn and his men "party" with the local elves was normal in Fereldan for noblemen. Danarius was an awful mage even by Tevinter standards.

 

3. Tevinter seems to have the highest technology and living standard in Thedas.

 

4. It's also the only reason the Blights have been defeated and since the Taint existed in the Deep Roads beforehand. It was only a matter of time before the Old Gods were tainted anyway. Indeed, it's very likely Dumat was already tainted since HE ARRANGED for the Black City ritual.

 

5. You can't advance in Orlais as there's no opportunity for social advancement in a hereditary military dictatorship. Ser Michel is an imposter who had to lie about his parentage to pass himself off as a chevalier. He also, I remind you, engaged in race-based murder as part of his initiation.

 

Either way, this kind of darkness is what I wanted from the portrayal of the lands and everything seemed softpedaled.

I wouldn't have MINDED Tevinter as the Red Wizards of Thay from Forgotten Realms (remember them from Baldur's Gate?) and it being Fantasy Mordor.

But it and Orlais were given the whitewash treatment.

[TheKomandorShepard]

1. Lack of Rights vs. Privileges are two sides of the same coin. You can say a Chevalier has special privileges or you can say a serf has no right to complain. Same difference.

 

2. We've seen Tevinter parties in the comics and while Fenris was witness to some pretty gruesome stuff, the Tevinter parties by and large DON'T have that sort of craziness. Any more than, presumed Vaughn and his men "party" with the local elves was normal in Fereldan for noblemen. Danarius was an awful mage even by Tevinter standards.

 

3. Tevinter seems to have the highest technology and living standard in Thedas.

 

4. It's also the only reason the Blights have been defeated and since the Taint existed in the Deep Roads beforehand. It was only a matter of time before the Old Gods were tainted anyway. Indeed, it's very likely Dumat was already tainted since HE ARRANGED for the Black City ritual.

 

5. You can't advance in Orlais as there's no opportunity for social advancement in a hereditary military dictatorship. Ser Michel is an imposter who had to lie about his parentage to pass himself off as a chevalier. He also, I remind you, engaged in race-based murder as part of his initiation.

 

Either way, this kind of darkness is what I wanted from the portrayal of the lands and everything seemed softpedaled.

I wouldn't have MINDED Tevinter as the Red Wizards of Thay from Forgotten Realms (remember them from Baldur's Gate?) and it being Fantasy Mordor.

But it and Orlais were given the whitewash treatment.

 

1.Not the same because i have rights (for example i can have family,own house or chose my job) just chevaliers have immunitet so he would be able beat the **** out of me if he wants.

 

2.On what exactly you base your information? Party fenris was talking about wasn't random thug party of Vaughan only party that senators were involved in what is pretty much telling.

 

3.Nope Qunari/dwarves have , and high-tevinter standards pretty much are restriced as in most of Thedas reserved for nobles.

 

4, If i recall there is no evidence that blight was on deep roads before magisters went to the black city , first record of darkspawn come from times of first blight. Also false Tevinter didn't participate in every blight nor that would matter because it is only extinguishing fire they have started.

 

5.Once again false, you can advance to nobility it is hard but possible.

 

Well , Orlais sucks but it ain't as bad as Tevinter.

[Kallas_br123]

The Inquisitior is no politician. That's exactly what this game lacks. Being crowned a messiah figure within the first hour and just waving your dick around is not how politics generally work. And simply picking sides only for the sake of the "Breach" plot, isn't really how I expected the mage/templar war to get resolved either. People argued over that here for 2 or 3 years, and that's what it amounted to?

 

It's got about as much as depth as some daydream from a highschool kid, who wished he could rule the world. It's made even more ridiculous because of the extra races. These people wouldn't know anything and the only reason they do is because they're controlled by human players. None of them having a charming quality "outsider" like Sigrun, or Merrill, or Sten, or Oghren. They have to be unique snowflakes..with all the qualities to be masters of the universe.. residing over things that don't matter to them one bit... which just further shows how hand wavey and fluffy the whole story is.

true

[KaiserShep]

Evil Hawke kills Bethany so she can be Viscount.
 
Evil Hawke kills Bethany because she's sick of her sanctimonious prattling.
Evil Hawke betrays Fenris to slavery because, honestly, she wants that mansion.
Evil Hawke helps Anders blow up the Chantry because, why not?
 
Evil Hawke massacres the elves of the dalish because they're pointy ears and she wants that Eluvian for herself.
 
Really, people keep assuming he's their friend when it's all about the Sovereigns.
 

 
Best Evil Hawke?
Blood Mage Evil Fem Hawke who kills Bethany and sides with the Templars to rule with Sebastian who she manipulated into being her consort to take over Starkhaven
 
She also was with Fenris solely to .sell him into slavery.
 
Why?
It amused her.

Edge so sharp, it cuts through time and space XD

[AFA]

Those who want the darkness back should be pretty pleased. After the success of Skyrim, BW tried their best to clone that. With the success of the Witcher, I imagine BW will try to ape that. Hopefully we get just enough darkness, sex, blood, and grime to get us back to Origins.