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[giveamanafish...]

I honestly giggled at how the broodmother in Origins was presented, Although the visuals were pretty creepy, the dwarf reciting that verse made me laugh. [Different tastes I suppose: a thought].

[AedanStarfang]

His Tevinter origins are all but irrelevant.

 

People also tend to forget Corypheus is a Darkspawn as well as a Tevinter because he doesn't self-identify as a Darkspawn but the Architect certainly does. Honestly, I was hoping Corypheus would use his powers to summon an army of Darkspawn and grant them free will and souls because--well, that would have been AWESOME.

 

Yea I feel like they missed out on a good opportunity there, he could've used the Darkspawn as a last resort type of thing like if he can't become a God, rule Thedas then no one can.

[GoldenGail3]

Yes. It's going to high fantasy. So the elder scrolls it is! It's a Dark Fantasy and hopefully will remain that way. Look; if the bloody elder scrolls goes shite, I'm gonna be mad. At Besthuda. But if it's better then DA4 in terms of crappiness (look, DA4 will either be DAO Tevinter styled or shite like DA2. Or be like ME, so..... Yeah, I don't have a lot of faith in Bioware at the current moment. However, Besthuda. don't do mess up. Please don't. )

[ShadowLordXII]

I'd actually brought this "downplay of darkness" up in another topic months ago.

 

It's certainly disappointing to see Dragon Age shift more and more away from the dark and uncomfortable roots that were established in Origins. Though I'd argue that Origins was more of a reconstruction than a deconstruction of fantasy just with a heavy and somber emphasis on mystery, grit, harsh unfairness, cruelty and generally dark stuff. However, there's still an option for a relatively happy ending depending on player choice. There's also an option for a bittersweet ending or a downer ending where the Warden dies.

 

In spite of everything and even some missteps and flaws, Origins was balanced despite being a darker game. And that worked for the story and immersion that it was going for.

 

In DA2, the reason that this game failed was because it was rushed thanks to EA's usual business motto (running good game developers into the dirt for profit) and thus, a lot of stuff had to get stripped. A side effect of this was that a lot of Da2's good ideas didn't have proper time to be refined so that they could be executed and portrayed in a meaningful way.

 

Instead, the dramatic tale that was meant to be Hawke's story turns out into a flanderized going into Act 3. Most of the drama comes across as contrived and robs the player of agency to naturally respond to their circumstances. The mage-templar conflict which could have been great turns out to be a dark-vs-dark madhouse without any room for player investment and yet, we're expected and forced to choose between both sides as if it matters. It doesn't. Kirkwall is screwed regardless.

 

If the idea had been given more time and thought with less agency removed from players, Hawke's story would have been an epic tragedy worthy of greek plays. But one can dream right?

 

What does all of that have to do with Inquisition?

 

I'll elaborate in my upcoming review and as I'd said in my previous topic: http://forum.bioware...and-embrace-it/

 

But long-story short, Inquisition's tone seems like a deliberate overreaction to DA2. An intentional stepping away from the darker aspects of Thedas that made this world so compelling and interesting.

 

There's a lot of things that make this obvious, but whats most noteworthy is that the Inquisitor himself has no option to partake in the darker sides of humanity and is restricted to being neutral at worst. As opposed to DA2 or Origins where your Warden/Hawke could be an evil and selfish murderer who could kill their own companions or even the innocent including at least two instances of deliberate child-endangerment and/or murder. In fact, the Warden could even get themselves killed due to noble leanings or suicidal thoughts depending on their mindset during the Ultimate Sacrifice.

 

Some argue that the morality system in Origins was silly. But at least it was something. When you have an idea with potential, you don't just abandon it because you didn't get it quite on the mark the first time. You take it to the drawing board, fix what was broken, improve what worked and then try again. I mean, isn't assigning a morality to your character one of the major aspects of playing an Role-Playing Game?

[KaiserShep]

I honestly giggled at how the broodmother in Origins was presented, Although the visuals were pretty creepy, the dwarf reciting that verse made me laugh. [Different tastes I suppose: a thought].

 

The first thing I thought when I heard Hespith's lines was how well her voice seemed to carry, like she was speaking over a PA system.

[Willowhugger]

Ten Ways Dragon Age: Inquisition could have been improved

1. Bad consequences for moral and political choices: I would have removed the option for Gaspard and Fereldan to have peace. Help the elves and Fereldan will suffer. Help Fereldan and the elves will suffer. Help Celene and the peace will grow as well as the end of war--but the elves will suffer. You could do it with the Divine too. A hardened Leliana would be able to make her reforms while an unhardened Leliana will fail to make meaningful change. If this is hard to carry over, don't make more than a few changes which need to be consequential.

2. Blood Magic: The whole argument that Blood Magic should be "special" doesn't make a lot of sense when magic is considered a filthy disgusting activity by itself. Blood magic should be an option if you're willing to do whatever it takes to save the world from Corypheus. It could also lead to some fun conversations with Cassandra and Vivienne and others about how it's a tool nothing more. I mean, you can ANIMATE THE DEAD WITH DEMONS and this is better than Blood Magic?

3. Show the crappy side of Orlais: I would have liked to have visited the Alienage which Celene burned in TME. I would have liked to have seen the mass poverty and talked with some of the peasants who have to deal with the fact they're slaves to the local nobility. Really, I felt the Great Game was sanitized too as everyone made really obvious foul-ups you can blackmail them over. It seemed like Disney France versus the harsher side which gave us the French Revolution.

4. Side with the Freemen of the Dales: I was really confused by this, honestly, as I saw no reason why I wouldn't support a Peasant State which would be inhabited by the locals who have been used and abused by the nobility. Siding with them over the Orlaisians could have been a very interesting storyline, especially if the country turns against you as a result.

5. No way to run an evil Inquisition: Leliana is the darkest part of the Inquisition, which I think is a mistake personally, as I would have loved to have a torture chamber as a potential option in Skyhold and other stuff which is terrible. I also would have appreciated the option for maybe doing some other policies which should have been fun. Maybe War Board missions where you do wicked things to increase your power and weaken your enemies.

Maybe sentence Fiona to become Tranquil, stuff like that.

6. No way to keep the Enslaved Grey Wardens: It would have been a good choice to potentially let the Grey Wardens keep their enslaved spirit-controlled members as weapons or even continue the process so the Inquisition has access to them instead. Having your own branch of the warriors would be a really good weapon against Corypheus and the Red Templars.

7. Make Corypheus Multifaceted: Have Corypheus give a serious explanation for why he should be allowed to triumph. Have him point out what a terrible world Thedas is and how with him as God, he can remake it with a paradise afterlife, peace, and so on. Maybe show in the Fade what his version of Tevinter would be like and mention his horrific suffering as a Darkspawn. Maybe even have an option of siding with him even if it's a non-canon option.

More people like Calpernia and options for understanding them.

8. Betray Morrigan Option: Have Solas tell you about the fact the Well of Souls will make you enslaved to Mythal and then make the choice of either betraying Morrigan or taking on the burden yourself.

9. Corypheus attacks Skyhold: This is something which was direly missing, IMHO, and I think we should have had as the big finale. It would have been awesome to have something similar to the original attack with how much in the way of improvements and how many alliances you've made.

10. More Chances to betray your followers: Things like the Urn of Sacred Ashes would be nice. I think obvious ones would be to turn Cole into a Demon in your service. Having Cullen addicted to the Lyrium and be controlled that way.

[Ashagar]

You do find out a bit about Corypheus if you recruit the templars though.

 

For one thing he apparently deeply and honestly respected Calperinia and regretted what he would have do after she drank from while hoping that someday she would understand. He also lamented on how modern Tevinter wastes and ignores peoples talents simply because of their origins and implies it would have never happened in Ancient Tevinter.

 

It also becomes apparent that he doesn't really believe that the maker doesn't exist but that he doesn't consider him a god worthy of worship because he doesn't answer the prayers of the people and so he will give the people a god that will answer their prayers.

 

 

[KaiserShep]

You do find out a bit about Corypheus if you recruit the templars though.

 

For one thing he apparently deeply and honestly respected Calperinia and regretted what he would have do after she drank from while hoping that someday she would understand. He also lamented on how modern Tevinter wastes and ignores peoples talents simply because of their origins and implies it would have never happened in Ancient Tevinter.

 

It also becomes apparent that he doesn't really believe that the maker doesn't exist but that he doesn't consider him a god worthy of worship because he doesn't answer the prayers of the people and so he will give the people a god that will answer their prayers.

 

The big problem lies in the fact that this isn't something you can find out unless you do Champions of the Just. More insight into the mind of the enemy should not be tied inextricably to a mutually exclusive quest. 

[ShadowLordXII]

Ten Ways Dragon Age: Inquisition could have been improved

snip

 

My only contention would be number 1.

 

Electing Gaspard as emperor and causing a war between Ferelden and Orlais should be enough of a bad consequence. Also why should the elves always suffer? Both Gaspard and Celene could care less for elves, Briala was the one trying to improve conditions for elves in Orlais. If either Gaspard or Celene become ruler, elves would still continue with their terrible lot regardless. If war breaks out, everyone suffers regardless so how would elves suffer more than anyone else? How does helping elves make things worst for Ferelden?

 

My point is that you need to be careful here or you'll end up going into ME3 Destroy territory. Where an arbitrary negative consequence was nonsensically tacked on just for the sake of "drama".

 

One idea that the core game did get right was that using blackmail or diplomacy to put Briala in power would be the only rational way to have any improvement for the elves. I say keep that in, but go further in letting the player determine if reforms will occur diplomatically or through intrigue/force.

[Willowhugger]

My only contention would be number 1.
 
Electing Gaspard as emperor and causing a war between Ferelden and Orlais should be enough of a bad consequence. Also why should the elves always suffer? Both Gaspard and Celene could care less for elves, Briala was the one trying to improve conditions for elves in Orlais. If either Gaspard or Celene become ruler, elves would still continue with their terrible lot regardless. If war breaks out, everyone suffers regardless so how would elves suffer more than anyone else? How does helping elves make things worst for Ferelden?

No, I wasn't saying both of them would be hard on elves. The War with Fereldan would be the consequence of Gaspard.
 

 

My point is that you need to be careful here or you'll end up going into ME3 Destroy territory. Where an arbitrary negative consequence was nonsensically tacked on just for the sake of "drama".

 

It makes perfect sense for Edi, the Geth, and Shepard to all die in Destroy because they're Reapertech.

That's never mentioned, though, as a reason.

[Aren]

Sometime choices lead to the same outcome simply because at Bioware they are too afraid to tell to the players that their choices had x effect that could be not a positive one but a negative one.
See how they poorly handled Harrowmont, Connor and the demon, Redclieffe ,the DR ecc
.

[Willowhugger]

Sometime choices lead to the same outcome simply because at Bioware they are too afraid to tell to the players that their choices had x effect that could be not a positive one but a negative one.
See how they poorly handled Harrowant, Connor and the demon, Redcloeffe ,the DR ecc
.

 

How was Harrowmount poorly handled?

[The Baconer]

Why would the fate of Ferelden and the fate of "the elves" be linked? 

[Willowhugger]

Why would the fate of Ferelden and the fate of "the elves" be linked? 

 

Uh, Gaspard wants war with Fereldan and has nothing against elves per say. He's even willing to employ elves in the Orlasian military if they're willing to fight for the Empire, which is a traditional route for marginalized parties to gain respect (albeit it doesn't always work) as well as higher position in society. Celene, however, wants to overcompensate for her perceived elven bias by being twice as hard on the elves as Gaspard--hence why she destroyed an elven city. She doesn't want war with the Fereldans.

 

Side with Gaspard: Fereldan is invaded, Elven lot improves. Albeit marginally.

 

Side with Celene: Fereldan has peace, Elves continue to get screwed.

 

Side with Briala: Fereldan is invaded, Elven lot very much improves, Possible Civil War and more deaths as Gaspard looks weak

Or hell, maybe Briala will get her own nation with the Inquisitions help but Orlais now hates the Inquisition.

[Aren]

How was Harrowmount poorly handled?

Because he was dead in one of the outcome and the death of an importan figure like the king of Orzamar can't be just epilogue rumors.

[Nefla]

So its not horrifying or disturbing as long as you don't know the people its happening to? I'd have say that's horrifying but it is rather human sadly and part of what allowed regimes in real life to kill hundreds, thousands or even millions of people. As Stalin stated one death is a tragedy but a million is a statistic.

It's sad but true. How often do we hear about a tragedy in some distant country where hundreds of people die and yet we just can't care about them the same way we care about seeing our mother or our husband or child die in our arms and those are real people. In a video game they're clusters of pixels that the game hasn't put the effort into making me care about or see as more than a statistic. They stay clusters of pixels and background decoration and cannon fodder until the devs breathe life into them and in DA:I they never did. And again the situations are so outlandish that there is an extra disconnect. We have nothing in reality to compare it to. The red lyrium monsters and walking corpses are as much suffering people to me as the goombas I squish in a Mario game. Very unreal and unsympathetic. If you want to make an outlandish creature sympathetic, you have to develop them a little and make us see them as a person (like Tamlen).

[ShadowLordXII]

It makes perfect sense for Edi, the Geth, and Shepard to all die in Destroy because they're Reapertech.

That's never mentioned, though, as a reason.

 

Except Shepard doesn't die. And since EDI is essentially the Normandy and the Normandy is still operational, it's very possible that she still survives in some form.

 

It also makes no sense that the Crucible can't distinguish between synthetic/organic hybrids and actual synthetics. Especially when the peoples building the Crucible have multiple devices and technologies at hand that specifically identify Reapers.

 

There's more to it than that, but that would be off-topic.

 

How was Harrowmount poorly handled?

 

Because nothing in-game suggests that Bhelen will be a better king than Harrowmont.

 

In-game, he's seen as a backstabbing, manipulative, power-hungry, ambitious, ruthless and selfish jerk who had a hand in the death of his older brother; the exile of the second older brother and I wouldn't be surprised if he poisoned his own father.

 

He doesn't even display any more political capability or potential as a leader than Harrowmont. Yet, he was supposed to be the right choice because...drama?

 

It was a clear attempt to hammer in the "noble choice isn't always the right one" angle and it didn't work. A lot of folk saw right through this agenda and if you want more explanation, I'll just leave this link for your consideration: http://forum.bioware...-aeducan-sucks/

 

Uh, Gaspard wants war with Fereldan and has nothing against elves per say. He's even willing to employ elves in the Orlasian military if they're willing to fight for the Empire, which is a traditional route for marginalized parties to gain respect (albeit it doesn't always work) as well as higher position in society. Celene, however, wants to overcompensate for her perceived elven bias by being twice as hard on the elves as Gaspard--hence why she destroyed an elven city. She doesn't want war with the Fereldans.

 

Side with Gaspard: Fereldan is invaded, Elven lot improves. Albeit marginally.

 

Side with Celene: Fereldan has peace, Elves continue to get screwed.

 

Side with Briala: Fereldan is invaded, Elven lot very much improves, Possible Civil War and more deaths as Gaspard looks weak

Or hell, maybe Briala will get her own nation with the Inquisitions help but Orlais now hates the Inquisition.

 

Okay, now I have a clearer picture of what you meant. Works for me.

[sniper_arrow]

Ten Ways Dragon Age: Inquisition could have been improved

1. Bad consequences for moral and political choices: I would have removed the option for Gaspard and Fereldan to have peace. Help the elves and Fereldan will suffer. Help Fereldan and the elves will suffer. Help Celene and the peace will grow as well as the end of war--but the elves will suffer. You could do it with the Divine too. A hardened Leliana would be able to make her reforms while an unhardened Leliana will fail to make meaningful change. If this is hard to carry over, don't make more than a few changes which need to be consequential.

2. Blood Magic: The whole argument that Blood Magic should be "special" doesn't make a lot of sense when magic is considered a filthy disgusting activity by itself. Blood magic should be an option if you're willing to do whatever it takes to save the world from Corypheus. It could also lead to some fun conversations with Cassandra and Vivienne and others about how it's a tool nothing more. I mean, you can ANIMATE THE DEAD WITH DEMONS and this is better than Blood Magic?

3. Show the crappy side of Orlais: I would have liked to have visited the Alienage which Celene burned in TME. I would have liked to have seen the mass poverty and talked with some of the peasants who have to deal with the fact they're slaves to the local nobility. Really, I felt the Great Game was sanitized too as everyone made really obvious foul-ups you can blackmail them over. It seemed like Disney France versus the harsher side which gave us the French Revolution.

4. Side with the Freemen of the Dales: I was really confused by this, honestly, as I saw no reason why I wouldn't support a Peasant State which would be inhabited by the locals who have been used and abused by the nobility. Siding with them over the Orlaisians could have been a very interesting storyline, especially if the country turns against you as a result.

5. No way to run an evil Inquisition: Leliana is the darkest part of the Inquisition, which I think is a mistake personally, as I would have loved to have a torture chamber as a potential option in Skyhold and other stuff which is terrible. I also would have appreciated the option for maybe doing some other policies which should have been fun. Maybe War Board missions where you do wicked things to increase your power and weaken your enemies.

Maybe sentence Fiona to become Tranquil, stuff like that.

6. No way to keep the Enslaved Grey Wardens: It would have been a good choice to potentially let the Grey Wardens keep their enslaved spirit-controlled members as weapons or even continue the process so the Inquisition has access to them instead. Having your own branch of the warriors would be a really good weapon against Corypheus and the Red Templars.

7. Make Corypheus Multifaceted: Have Corypheus give a serious explanation for why he should be allowed to triumph. Have him point out what a terrible world Thedas is and how with him as God, he can remake it with a paradise afterlife, peace, and so on. Maybe show in the Fade what his version of Tevinter would be like and mention his horrific suffering as a Darkspawn. Maybe even have an option of siding with him even if it's a non-canon option.

More people like Calpernia and options for understanding them.

8. Betray Morrigan Option: Have Solas tell you about the fact the Well of Souls will make you enslaved to Mythal and then make the choice of either betraying Morrigan or taking on the burden yourself.

9. Corypheus attacks Skyhold: This is something which was direly missing, IMHO, and I think we should have had as the big finale. It would have been awesome to have something similar to the original attack with how much in the way of improvements and how many alliances you've made.

10. More Chances to betray your followers: Things like the Urn of Sacred Ashes would be nice. I think obvious ones would be to turn Cole into a Demon in your service. Having Cullen addicted to the Lyrium and be controlled that way.

 

Regarding #1:

 

I would like to add by making Vivienne Divine, the clerics who voted for her will be assassinated.

 

At this pointed, this would motivated me to write fan fiction, but I don't have the time to do so.  

[Willowhugger]

Regarding #1:

 

I would like to add by making Vivienne Divine, the clerics who voted for her will be assassinated.

 

At this pointed, this would motivated me to write fan fiction, but I don't have the time to do so.  

 

That will be awkward as Vivienne as Divine seems like it would result in the clerics who voted against her being assassinated.

[Aren]

It's a good example actually.

The Brood Mother in Dragon Age: Origins is terrifying and sad.
The Brood Mother in Dragon Age: Awakening is silly.

The difference?

Hespith.

To me is the opposite.
The Mother of DAA was awesome she has several cutscenes dedicated to her and you can grasp in part her personality and her anger towards the Architect who transformed her into that creature.
I didn't felt anything for the one in DAO.

[Willowhugger]

To me is the opposite.
The Mother of DAA was awesome she has several cutscenes dedicated to her and you can grasp in part her personality and her anger towards the Architect who transformed her into that creature.
I didn't felt anything for the one in DAO.

 

I sympathize for whatever poor Dwarf Maid became the Broodmother.

I can't sympathize with Rita Repulsa disliking she's been removed from the Borg Collective.

[thats1evildude]

I quite like hammy villains, so The Mother was a delightful antagonist for me.

As for the Freemen, they were only pawns of Corypheus. Their cause lost any legitimacy when they started attacking helpless refugees.

And besides, aiding them would have greatly complicated any alliance with the Orlesian monarchy.

[The Baconer]

Uh, Gaspard wants war with Fereldan and has nothing against elves per say. He's even willing to employ elves in the Orlasian military if they're willing to fight for the Empire, which is a traditional route for marginalized parties to gain respect (albeit it doesn't always work) as well as higher position in society. Celene, however, wants to overcompensate for her perceived elven bias by being twice as hard on the elves as Gaspard--hence why she destroyed an elven city. She doesn't want war with the Fereldans.

 

Side with Gaspard: Fereldan is invaded, Elven lot improves. Albeit marginally.

 

Side with Celene: Fereldan has peace, Elves continue to get screwed.

 

Side with Briala: Fereldan is invaded, Elven lot very much improves, Possible Civil War and more deaths as Gaspard looks weak

Or hell, maybe Briala will get her own nation with the Inquisitions help but Orlais now hates the Inquisition.

 

Celene doesn't even have an interest in being "tough on Elves" beyond squashing the rebellion in Halamshiral. Gaspard has no interest in elves beyond the capacity in which they might be useful to him... which is pretty much the same regard every other noble holds of them. Whatever improvement they could carve out by dying in Ferelden wouldn't even manifest in Gaspard's lifetime. 

[Willowhugger]

I quite like hammy villains, so The Mother was a delightful antagonist for me.

As for the Freemen, they were only pawns of Corypheus. Their cause lost any legitimacy when they started attacking helpless refugees.

And besides, aiding them would have greatly complicated any alliance with the Orlesian monarchy.

 

That's the thing, though, isn't it?

Complex is good.

 

If there's an easy solution of "kill the orc and take its stuff because it's an orc" then you've really kind of dumbed things down. I loved Dragon Age 2 because you understood and could respect the Arishok even if you hated every single thing he stood for. I even understood Meredith's position even if she was a die-hard reader of Mein Tempelgesellschaft. I don't necessarily think the games should be necessarily filled with MORE choices but I think the choices should definitely be MESSY choices.

 

There's a reason why people are still debating Loghain and Anders years later.

 

Because it was a good choice with pros and cons both sides.

 

Is there anything which really approaches that in DA:I?

[thats1evildude]

That's not really the right kind of "complicated."

The Freemen are just a group of deserters relying on their alliance with the Red Templars to have any shot at creating their own state. And they're doomed to fail; Corypheus would dispose of them the moment they cease to be useful. Taking them on as allies and antagonizing the Orlesian crown really is a poor trade.

Is there anything which really approaches that in DA:I?

Keeping/exiling the Wardens.