359 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

That's not really the right kind of complicated. The Freemen are just a handful of deserters relying on their alliance with the Red Templars to have any shot at creating their own state. Taking them on as allies and antagonizing the Crown really is a poor trade.

The thing is, of course, that's a choice which is made for you. The Freeman are a bunch of psychotic anti-noble deserters working for Corypheus so there's no ambiguity to the story. I understand enemies in a fantasy RPG need to exist because, otherwise, who would you blow up but they choose to write it as nothing more than yet another arm of Corypheus' Evil League of EvilTM.

 

There's one redeemable faction member and one tragic villain (both of whom are mutually exclusive) but all of it is made perfectly clear this will all lead to Corypheus' Hell-World in Alexis' story.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is I would like them to keep the Dragon Age setting:

 

1. Messy
2. Complicated
3. Adult
4. Kind of crappy to live in.

[SgtSteel91]

Shouldn't there come a point where trying to do good and make the world a better place start having an impact?

 

Otherwise, what's the point of trying to change things during 3 games and 10+ years in lore if nothing sticks and everything is still terrible?

[thats1evildude]

1. Messy
2. Complicated
3. Adult
4. Kind of crappy to live in.

It is a pretty shitty world to live in, honestly.

Shouldn't there come a point where trying to do good and make the world a better place start having an impact?

Otherwise, what's the point of trying to change things during 3 games and 10+ years in lore if nothing sticks and everything is still terrible?

You've highlighted the danger of Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy. Which was a problem with Dragon Age 2's narrative: it was too overwhelmingly bleak.

Props to Bioware for trying to write a story where the hero can't magically fix everything. Still, after a while you wonder: what's the point in even trying?

[Willowhugger]

Shouldn't there come a point where trying to do good and make the world a better place start having an impact?

 

Otherwise, what's the point of trying to change things during 3 games and 10+ years in lore if nothing sticks and everything is still terrible?

 

Yes...and no.

 

In my essay, I talk about how the darkness is essential to making victories MEAN something. One of the bigger complaints about Leliana as Unhardened is that everything works out for her radical Martin Luther-esque reforms of the Chantry because she's just that charismatic. Martin Luther was kind of a [insert negative word of choice] but he was certainly charismatic and the results of his reforms, most of which would strike the modern world's religious as reasonable was CENTURIES OF WAR.

 

Part of what annoys me about the Briala ending is that there's no hammer falling for what is obviously a huge freaking change. Part of what makes Bhelen's reforms of the Casteless MEANINGFUL is they come with the end of Orzamaar's version of Parliament, bloodshed, and purges. It's a tough decision and it has consequences like when you encounter survivors of House Harrowmount who had their families murdered because Bhelen is a tyrant.

 

Was it worth it? I think the answer should depend on the player.

For me? Yeah, it was, but it was ugly and hard because change should be.

Even for the better.

 

Otherwise, you get this:

 

[Willowhugger]

You've highlighted the danger of Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy.

 

For me, I want to go for this:
 

Earn Your Happy Ending

 

For me, I want Thedas to be a Crapsack World, yes. One you can change but at the consequence of great bloodshed, chaos, and troubling alliances. Basically, it should be the High Fantasy Game of Thrones.

 

Except, maybe a few less examples of kicking the good guys in the nuts for no reason.

 

I admit, GOT does get a trifle silly on occasion.

 

It should still be damned dark.

 

Because it's DARK FANTASY.

[SgtSteel91]

Yes...and no.

 

In my essay, I talk about how the darkness is essential to making victories MEAN something. One of the bigger complaints about Leliana as Unhardened is that everything works out for her radical Martin Luther-esque reforms of the Chantry because she's just that charismatic. Martin Luther was kind of a [insert negative word of choice] but he was certainly charismatic and the results of his reforms, most of which would strike the modern world's religious as reasonable was CENTURIES OF WAR.

 

Trespasser at least adds some patches to Leliana's tenure what with a rebellion springing up, and prematurely ends only if she is hardened.

[BansheeOwnage]

 

But long-story short, Inquisition's tone seems like a deliberate overreaction to DA2. An intentional stepping away from the darker aspects of Thedas that made this world so compelling and interesting.

 

 When you have an idea with potential, you don't just abandon it because you didn't get it quite on the mark the first time. You take it to the drawing board, fix what was broken, improve what worked and then try again. I mean, isn't assigning a morality to your character one of the major aspects of playing an Role-Playing Game?

 

Bioware has a bad habit of overcompensating, heavily, in reaction to its previous games, instead of taking an idea and improving and fine-tuning it. They like to nuke things instead, and/or go in the complete opposite direction as what didn't work. There are countless examples, and I made a post with some once. Doubt I can find it again, though.

[Willowhugger]

Bioware has a bad habit of overcompensating, heavily, in reaction to its previous games, instead of taking an idea and improving and fine-tuning it. They like to nuke things instead, and/or go in the complete opposite direction as what didn't work. There are countless examples, and I made a post with some once. Doubt I can find it again, though.

Well the way AAA game design works, it's very rare for anyone to maintain as much artistic control as to guarantee a consistent vision for a story and mood. It's something I feel isn't going to change for the better with the disappearance of David Gaider into an alternate dimension from which we'll never hear from again.

Or, you know, until he gets his next job in gaming.

[Gileadan]

It seems to me that whoever designed the surroundings tried to venture into dark fantasy territory once in a while, but the actual playable-content designers did nothing with it. For example, there's this cave in the Western Approach that has a corpse with red lyrium spikes on a table, cut open and likely experimented on. It is a non-interactable object. A background prop. Your companions don't react to it. I would have loved to have a conversation over it like with Mordin in the krogan hospital in ME2, maybe in an attempt to understand red lyrium better. Maybe have someone in your inquisition who, like Dr. Vahlen in XCOM, occasionally goes "But think what we could do if we understood this better...". But no, the corpse is just a backgound prop, easily overlooked because of how far zoomed out the camera is.

Likewise, when I entered that shack in Redcliffe and someone on my team said "aw, poor tranquils", I was looking in the wrong direction and had to turn around before I got the meaning. Even when they tried to put in some dark streaks, they didn't do it overly well.

Overall, Inquisition feels to me like a conscious attempt was made to make if feel clean and neutral. Even the "emotion wheel" resulted in mostly neutral responses. I tried to play an angry inquisitor, and it took me until the last 20 minutes of Trespasser before I got there. Before, what I got was neutral with a sprinkle of grumpy.

I also got the impression that as soon as Gaider was away, the franchise departed from its at least somewhat grounded approach to fantasy and went straight for "zomfg epic!!" with the Descent and Trespasser. Not my preference, but different strokes for different people.

[BansheeOwnage]

Except Shepard doesn't die. And since EDI is essentially the Normandy and the Normandy is still operational, it's very possible that she still survives in some form.

 

It also makes no sense that the Crucible can't distinguish between synthetic/organic hybrids and actual synthetics. Especially when the peoples building the Crucible have multiple devices and technologies at hand that specifically identify Reapers.

 

There's more to it than that, but that would be off-topic.

Ah... brings back memories. And you're right on all counts, plus as far as we know, Shepard isn't Reaper tech either. I personally love how there was a War Asset (Interferometric Array, I believe) that could locate every individual reaper in the entire galaxy... and yet, the Crucible "will not discriminate"

 

Anyway, enough off-topic from me. I just had to comment - because nostalgia

[Willowhugger]

Ah... brings back memories. And you're right on all counts, plus as far as we know, Shepard isn't Reaper tech either. I personally love how there was a War Asset (Interferometric Array, I believe) that could locate every individual reaper in the entire galaxy... and yet, the Crucible "will not discriminate"
 
Anyway, enough off-topic from me. I just had to comment - because nostalgia

I'll bow out because I have no desire to discuss how Space Magic Boomsticks work.

[Abyss108]

I don't think the game is less dark, its just less in-your-face edgy for the sake of being edgy.

[Willowhugger]

I don't think the game is less dark, its just less in-your-face edgy for the sake of being edgy.

But I like in your face edgy and blood on everything, especially the dog!

[thats1evildude]

It's still a world rife with war, disease, oppression and monsters. The loveliness of the environments and the heroism of the PC don't make those things disappear.

[MattH]

Very good points OP.

A lot of the interesting storylines in DA:I happen in codexs and background props, which is really, really sad.

[Illegitimus]

Yes...and no.

 

In my essay, I talk about how the darkness is essential to making victories MEAN something. One of the bigger complaints about Leliana as Unhardened is that everything works out for her radical Martin Luther-esque reforms of the Chantry because she's just that charismatic. Martin Luther was kind of a [insert negative word of choice] but he was certainly charismatic and the results of his reforms, most of which would strike the modern world's religious as reasonable was CENTURIES OF WAR.

 

Part of what annoys me about the Briala ending is that there's no hammer falling for what is obviously a huge freaking change. 

 

 

I just checked out the Briala ending.  These words struck me: "Even as an alliance of nobles considers open rebellion".   I would assume that there is blood coming with that epilog.  

[Witch Cocktor]

I don't know, I think the world of Dragon Age is depressing as ****?

[Tidus]

What I worry about is the DA series will take the same turn as Final Fantasy and we will end up using swords against guns. IMHO FF12 was the last FF game to make sense. DA:I remains a dark fantasy and I hope DA:4 will continue the dark fantasy route but, with a different story line-no more mage/Templar problems since we already know they hate each other beyond contempt.

[Willowhugger]

One area they really dialed down is we've got no "Connors" in DA:I. Well, Connor himself but there's no demon-possessed cities and so on emerging because no one is able to take the various magical children and train them. There's also few horrible flesh-covered hellholes like the other abomination places.

You'd think we'd be seeing a lot more of these with the war and lack of Templars to do demon hunting.

Which undermines the Templars' cause.

[KaiserShep]

Because nothing in-game suggests that Bhelen will be a better king than Harrowmont.

 

In-game, he's seen as a backstabbing, manipulative, power-hungry, ambitious, ruthless and selfish jerk who had a hand in the death of his older brother; the exile of the second older brother and I wouldn't be surprised if he poisoned his own father.

 

You do get a hint from the crier that Bhelen is not so concerned about honoring the dwarven caste system as other nobles are. 

[Willowhugger]

The difference between Dragon Age: Inquisition and Dragon Age: Origins really, to me, is based on the fact the world seems much more full of "dungeons" than full of people to interact with. The best part of Inquisition was, for me, the Masked Ball because that was a primarily social engagement but it seemed much-much smaller than the vast territories like the Hinterlands and the various battlefields which inhabitants were scarce. It's hard to do human stories of horror, misery, sadness, and love if almost everyone you encounter is trying to kill you.

What's doubly sad is there's signs that this wasn't the way it was originally supposed to go. At one point in the development cycle, there was an advertisement about how you had a choice between saving a fortress full of your soldiers or the village of Crestwood. Cassandra would advise you to save the fortress because she's all about loyalty to her men and a Mother to them while Varric would want you to save the villagers. That's a simple but fairly direct and proper moral choice with no "right" answer. It's also one which ends in tragedy either way.

Perhaps Dragon Age 2 went a little too far in the direction of, "nothing you do matters" but I can't help think there's more of a balance to be struck here. I also feel like I did with The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings that the "missing" segments of the game in the Templars vs. Mages would have been better available to both sides rather than an either or choice. If you're going to have Mages and Templars both survive the war then why not let everyone play the whole of the content? The game treats you as having chosen the Mages anyway since Red Templars are always your foes.

I can't help think the game also, essentially, skipped over the Mage-Templar War when that was one of the easiest sources of interesting drama in the franchise. "Rocks fall, everyone dies" seems like a fairly silly ending to it all. If anything wa dying for an actual sit down and negotiation or dictating of terms like Skyrim's Legion vs. Stormcloaks at the Graybeard's then this was it. I mean, hell, we had the Landsmeet--politics is nothing new in Dragon Age. So, again, it feels like moral ambiguity and actual "authenticity" of politics takes a beating.

And yes, the Briala and Celene make-up comes off as romantic in the game but sick if you know the backstory--which I'm not sure is true in Inquisition since there's no mention of, "Celene had Briala's entire family murdered to prove she's a ruthless psychopath to Gaspard's dead wife." It's also a much better and juicier secret to blackmail someone with than the somewhat tepid secrets you get anyway.

Oh well, David Gaider's absence from Dragon Age makes me think that this is the end of the "real" Dragon Age and the beginning of pastiches. Probably very well written pastiches but writing teams can and do never replicate the same sort of world as the original. Assassins Creed 1, for example, is different from the Ezio Trilogy, is different from the Kenway Trilogy and so on.

[Willowhugger]

You do get a hint from the crier that Bhelen is not so concerned about honoring the dwarven caste system as other nobles are.

It's actually very apparent in the Casteless Dwarf Origin.

Ironically, unspoiled, my Lawful Good Cousland chose Bhelen anyway. Why? Because conversations with the Tapsters Senator (or whatever you call Dwarven Nobles in the Council), more or less confirmed that Bhelen and Harrowmont are both scumbags. I trusted his judgement so I just decided to go with the one I'd already talked to and who promised all of the aid I needed. Also, the one who is the lawful heir by tradition.

You have to make a conscious effort to believe Harrowmont's story as Bhelen is on his best behavior during your conversations with him. The only reason you'd believe Harrowmont is a better king than Bhelen is you buy his story about being the heir named by Bhelen's father and assume there's a "Good vs. Evil" option which is not actually there very often in RL but was something Bioware games conditioned you to expect.

 

Obviously, though, 90% of Dwarven Nobles are going to choose Harrowmont unless they're possessed of godlike forgiveness.

[KaiserShep]

It's actually very apparent in the Casteless Dwarf Origin.

Ironically, unspoiled, my Lawful Good Cousland chose Bhelen anyway. Why? Because conversations with the Tapsters Senator (or whatever you call Dwarven Nobles in the Council), more or less confirmed that Bhelen and Harrowmont are both scumbags. I trusted his judgement so I just decided to go with the one I'd already talked to and who promised all of the aid I needed. Also, the one who is the lawful heir by tradition.

You have to make a conscious effort to believe Harrowmont's story as Bhelen is on his best behavior during your conversations with him. The only reason you'd believe Harrowmont is a better king than Bhelen is you buy his story about being the heir named by Bhelen's father and assume there's a "Good vs. Evil" option which is not actually there very often in RL but was something Bioware games conditioned you to expect.

 

Obviously, though, 90% of Dwarven Nobles are going to choose Harrowmont unless they're possessed of godlike forgiveness.

 

Yeah I forgot about that guy in Tapsters. So I basically fast-tracked my way to helping Bhelen ascend to the throne, even when I discovered that the documents Gavorn gave the Warden to prove Harrowmont was bamboozling the nobles were forgeries in the Shaperate. My Warden didn't really care who was the lawful heir at that point, because dwarven government is sh** and deserves an iron fist to hammer it all into submission, plus I just need someone to provide troops to combat the Blight. It was nice to see that Bhelen kept it up and started wiping out all the Harrowmonts, as indicated by the quest Last of his Line in DA2. 

[Willowhugger]

Hell, I like that they clarified Bhelen isn't even that reform-minded.

 

He opens up the Casteless to serving in the Deep Roads and fighting the Darkspawn.

Limited rights for personal benefit but a huge step up.
 

[Obsidian Gryphon]

It seems to me that whoever designed the surroundings tried to venture into dark fantasy territory once in a while, but the actual playable-content designers did nothing with it. For example, there's this cave in the Western Approach that has a corpse with red lyrium spikes on a table, cut open and likely experimented on. It is a non-interactable object. A background prop. Your companions don't react to it. I would have loved to have a conversation over it like with Mordin in the krogan hospital in ME2, maybe in an attempt to understand red lyrium better. Maybe have someone in your inquisition who, like Dr. Vahlen in XCOM, occasionally goes "But think what we could do if we understood this better...". But no, the corpse is just a backgound prop, easily overlooked because of how far zoomed out the camera is.

 

I was thinking the same thing too. I noted that the corpses that are dressed have very clean pressed clothes. Just ironed (imo) and that they died because someone splashed blood water on them. The revered mother who was killed, defiant to the last, didn't look like she had gone through h*** for  a year. In fact, anybody alive who had supposedly suffered didn't look much different except for  Leliana whose face reflected the torture but her clothing is as pristine as the day the inquisitor last saw her.  She ought not to be moving as if nothing had affected her. None of the rescued companions should even be at their full strength. All you see are funny lights in their eyes, hair and funny buzz in their voices....yes. I've suffered.