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Why is Dragon Age moving away from Dark Fantasy? [An essay]


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#76
Gervaise

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That whole thing about Leliana having been tortured continuously didn't ring true when you see how quickly she recovers.   If she had truly been hung by her hands for weeks on end, she should not have been capable of holding a bow, much less firing one.   Then she single handed holds off the Venatori while Dorian does his thing; it was very stirring stuff but totally ridiculous.

 

The problem I have is that the hints given in the epilogue to the main game that suggest that any changes you make in the regimes are only holding up because of your relation to the ruler/Divine are totally ignored in Trespasser.    Solas suggests the reason he is saving the life of an Inquisitor he doesn't like is because chaos is going to result if they die.   Then the Inquisition is even cut down to size under the Divine or disbanded altogether but apparently it has nil impact on the general scheme of things.   

 

For example, if you put Briala in power in the main game, the only hold over the nobles is now gone, so presumably there should be a massive backlash against both Briala and the elves.    Assume this is why they are all rushing off to join Solas, except that this occurs regardless of who is in power.     If Briala maintains her position regardless, with the backing of Divine Leliana and a truncated Inquisition, why are the elves leaving?    Then again, why would Gaspard be stupid enough to reverse the reforms because surely the Inquisitor will tell everyone about the super power elf "god".    Mind you I couldn't really understand why everyone was insisting on cutting the Inquisition down to size once Solas had revealed himself.   If the Inquisition was needed to counter Corypheus, surely it is still needed to counter Solas, who is Corypheus with nobs on?

 

I also felt that we should have seen more of what the elves suffer in DAI to realise why people like Briala are acting as they do.    There was one reference to Celene putting down the elven uprising and a few bits of minor prejudice, including insulting names, but nothing like as bad as the City elf origin to make you realise why life for elves is so awful.   I think they should have ensured players learned what Celene did to Briala's parents and every other servant in her household to achieve the position she did.    If you hadn't read Masked Empire Celene seemed no worse than a bit of a snob who was rather distant from everyone, not a totally ruthless noble who sacrificed her servants in order to advance herself.

 

It was also confusing in Trespasser as to which elves Solas thinks he is saving.    Playing an elf myself, I naturally assumed he meant just the ancient elves like Solas since he said I was going to die along with everyone else.    Still it was hard to see how he is meant to be saving them since they were not under threat any more than they have been for the last several thousand years.    So is he saving the modern elves too?    That would at least provide a bit of moral greyness to his actions since from an elven perspective things haven't improved a lot in the last  several thousands years and have likely only got worse as a result of his actions.

 

Unlike Origins where I feel they made a dark world where actions could be perceived as morally ambiguous but you are the one who decides; now I feel they are trying to artificially portray something as being either way, when clearly it isn't.    Solas is a case in point; I still struggle to understand why I would want to redeem someone who has just clearly told me he intends on going through with an action that will result in the destruction of all life in Thedas apart from his select few.


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#77
Lebanese Dude

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This is yet another case where people have subjective definitions of what something is to suit their intended purpose. If you don't like DAI that's fine, but don't delude yourself into thinking the game is a happy fun fest. The entire story is dark and tragic from beginning to end.

Dragon Age is dark enough and it deals with themes that often supersede basic human "darkness".

If there aren't any quests about pedophilia, it's because they're too busy making less basic themes such as overprotective father who joined the dark side to save son from darkspawn taint after his wife was brutally murdered, only to eventually keep him around as a emaciated vegetable creature just to keep him alive if you ever get to the point of having failed to save the world. One example of many. I'm also pretty sure you have one involving homophobia (Dorians father attempting to mind control using blood magic), mental conditioning (Iron Bull losing Chargers), fear and betrayal (high priest in temple of secrets), trauma (Leliana), among many others.

Considering the overall setting turned out to be much more high fantasy than we were led to believe, it would be wise to refrain from comparing it to a game like Witcher which is relatively low in comparison and which also has a storyline much smaller in scope.
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#78
Dabrikishaw

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Dragon Age was never Dark Fantasy though.  Even Origins was really High Fantasy, you just mistook it for Dark because of all the in your face rape.


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#79
KaiserShep

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I think all the dark shades of brown and fleshy sacks everywhere makes Dragon Age: Origins seem darker than it really is. 


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#80
AlanC9

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That whole thing about Leliana having been tortured continuously didn't ring true when you see how quickly she recovers.   If she had truly been hung by her hands for weeks on end, she should not have been capable of holding a bow, much less firing one.   .


Wait a second. Isn't it a plot point that she mysteriously regenerates?

#81
Qun00

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In addition, the Player Character can't really engage in morally questionable actions (not that you can't do some scummy stuff, like during the ball or in Sera's personal quest). Now, don't take that as "I wish you could do dark or evil things like in DA:O", because I think most of the "dark" choices in Origins are just childish nonsense. But... "Inquisition" has a lot of connotations in real life, but there's none of that 'flavor' to be found in-game. To be honest, I don't even know why our organization could be called an "Inquisition".


As I understand it, the judgement trials are meant to justify that namesake.

#82
In Exile

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Eh, the Architect made me think there's something worth saving there.

They're rape abominations. Their existence poisons the land in a way antithetical to everything we recognize as life, to reproduce they have to twist and mutate women into monstrosities, and their free will seems to - with one single exception in the entire history of the series - simply give them a more creative outlet to inflict pain and suffering. Just what exactly is worth saving? 


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#83
KaiserShep

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They're rape abominations. Their existence poisons the land in a way antithetical to everything we recognize as life, to reproduce they have to twist and mutate women into monstrosities, and their free will seems to - with one single exception in the entire history of the series - simply give them a more creative outlet to inflict pain and suffering. Just what exactly is worth saving? 

 

Pretty much. They're like, thermonuclear leper demons, even if some of them wouldn't intend to be. It's why I always kill the Messenger in Awakening. It doesn't matter what he wants to do, because he's just another thing that sickens the land and everything on it. 



#84
giveamanafish...

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Yes...and no.

 

In my essay, I talk about how the darkness is essential to making victories MEAN something. One of the bigger complaints about Leliana as Unhardened is that everything works out for her radical Martin Luther-esque reforms of the Chantry because she's just that charismatic. Martin Luther was kind of a [insert negative word of choice] but he was certainly charismatic and the results of his reforms, most of which would strike the modern world's religious as reasonable was CENTURIES OF WAR.

 

....snip

 

Your comparison of how the story treats an unhardened Leilana's path as the Divine versus the history of the Reformation and Martin Luther seems simplistic and seems to reflect a selective reading of the story and of history.

 

Was Martin Luther operating in a structure where most of the central figures of the Roman Catholic church had already died?  In DAI the explosion at the conclave killed most of the Chantry leadership, including the Divine. Whoever becomes Divine by the end of DAI basically has the opportunity to rebuild the Chantry so as to protect her own ideals and interests -- though that path is not w/o its pitfalls and strife, if I recall correctly.

 

Leilana is not creating a new church or laying the intellectual seeds for a new church to compete with a powerful existing order as was the case of the Reformation. She is rebuilding the old one, using her diverse contacts with the secular power structure in both Orlais and Ferelden. She is also drawing on the support of the Inquisition both in it's political strength and its reputation. She can also point to her own part in the Inquisition and its central role in destroying a existential threat to Thedas as well as in ending a mage-templar war, which tho not stretching to centuries, did kill a few people.

 

-----------------------------------------

Why is it that people only react positively to 'Dark Fantasy' if the story material fits their own preconceptions about human nature and society? Never mind that most of that knowledge is itself based on fictional works.


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#85
Arshei

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You Witcher fans seem to be into some real sick ****.

 

I am not a Witcher fan, can't you admit Witcher 3 is better than Dragon age in everything?

Graphics, History, Characters, Mission, etc.

 

As I said before, the only thing that Dragon Age does right is that they allow you to play the character you want, but always ugly. Witcher 3 force you to play the worst character in a videogame, an old pervert grumpy ugly father.



#86
Kabraxal

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I am not a Witcher fan, can't you admit Witcher 3 is better than Dragon age in everything?

Graphics, History, Characters, Mission, etc.

 

As I said before, the only thing that Dragon Age does right is that they allow you to play the character you want, but always ugly. Witcher 3 force you to play the worst character in a videogame, an old pervert grumpy ugly father.

Why admit something that isn't true?  I found TW3's handling of supposed mature themes to be far too blunt and shallow.  It practically is "Religion bad!", "Politics is scummy!" and "Everyone sucks!".  Not very deep or nuanced, whereas how DA handled religion/faith, magic and the fear it creates, politics, and sexuality to extremely deft and handled with enough grace that you don't feel like you are being hit in the head.  

 

And for history and world design... DA stomps TW3.  TW3 was a stock fantasy setting with very little integration of lore and history into the world.  You had to be told something happened in most places because the design fails to convey it by itself.  In Inquisition, simply walking through the Hissing Wastes or even The Hinterlands bestows a sense that the world has a real, living history.  

Characters... outside of Ciri, Lambert, and Triss, I didn't care for the rather stereotypical dark fantasy characters.  Yen was beyond annoying, Geralt is boring beyond belief, and the villains were even more shallow than Corypheus.  And the lack of meaningful interactions doesn't help this matter.  CDRP can do it... the drinking scene with the witchers proves they have some ability to write some really good character interactions but for some reason, decided not to write scenes that felt like real people interacting outside of the main thrust of the story.  These people have lives and personalities supposedly... let's see it!  That's where Bioware has always shone. 

 

I'll give you graphics though.  TW3 is damn pretty. But missions... I found them about equal.  TW3 had some good side content, though just as much filler as DA:I.  But DA:I's filler fed back into the lore in little and surprising ways that enriched the experience.  

 

This isn't saying TW3 is a horrible game... but I find it a decidely average to passable fantasy experience that relies far too heavily on the tired and often shallow tropes of dark fantasy to be anything more than an intriguing one off experience.  Granted, it is far better than its predecessors, but still... they have a world that can be so much more than the typical dark fantasy cliche. I'd wish they'd use it.  


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#87
The Baconer

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I think all the dark shades of brown and fleshy sacks everywhere makes Dragon Age: Origins seem darker than it really is. 

 

Don't forget the brown teeth, for maximum grit. 



#88
Illegitimus

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That whole thing about Leliana having been tortured continuously didn't ring true when you see how quickly she recovers.  

 

I'm not seeing the problem when high-level characters routinely perform superhuman feats.



#89
Arshei

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Why admit something that isn't true?  I found TW3's handling of supposed mature themes to be far too blunt and shallow.  It practically is "Religion bad!", "Politics is scummy!" and "Everyone sucks!".  Not very deep or nuanced, whereas how DA handled religion/faith, magic and the fear it creates, politics, and sexuality to extremely deft and handled with enough grace that you don't feel like you are being hit in the head.  

 

And for history and world design... DA stomps TW3.  TW3 was a stock fantasy setting with very little integration of lore and history into the world.  You had to be told something happened in most places because the design fails to convey it by itself.  In Inquisition, simply walking through the Hissing Wastes or even The Hinterlands bestows a sense that the world has a real, living history.  

Characters... outside of Ciri, Lambert, and Triss, I didn't care for the rather stereotypical dark fantasy characters.  Yen was beyond annoying, Geralt is boring beyond belief, and the villains were even more shallow than Corypheus.  And the lack of meaningful interactions doesn't help this matter.  CDRP can do it... the drinking scene with the witchers proves they have some ability to write some really good character interactions but for some reason, decided not to write scenes that felt like real people interacting outside of the main thrust of the story.  These people have lives and personalities supposedly... let's see it!  That's where Bioware has always shone. 

 

I'll give you graphics though.  TW3 is damn pretty. But missions... I found them about equal.  TW3 had some good side content, though just as much filler as DA:I.  But DA:I's filler fed back into the lore in little and surprising ways that enriched the experience.  

 

This isn't saying TW3 is a horrible game... but I find it a decidely average to passable fantasy experience that relies far too heavily on the tired and often shallow tropes of dark fantasy to be anything more than an intriguing one off experience.  Granted, it is far better than its predecessors, but still... they have a world that can be so much more than the typical dark fantasy cliche. I'd wish they'd use it.  

 

Mmmm... "the religion is bad", In DA the religion is pretty much the cause of why the mages are like prisoners, there is a lot of sexism in the chantry (you are man?, templar, you are a woman?, sister, and the head of the chantry only can be a woman)

Well.. the politic is scummy, but beside the fact that it is, the game consider the politic boring because of Geralt.

Everyone sucks... well.. explain me who isn't an hypocrite in the game?, I can't find someone who don't suck, characters I love like Cassandra, Morrigan, Cullen, Alistair, Anders, they all are hypocrites sadly.

 

About the history and world design... There are 8 books of the Witcher, all of them connected to the game, sadly, the books of Dragon Age are... Well, how exactly "the silent grove" happens if I killed Alistair in the landsmeet?

I am not saying that there are no "lore breaking" in Witcher 3, you can romance Triss or not help anyone, things that the real Geralt never would do.

 

Well... the second part... I don't know what to say... if you consider the Crones, the Mirror man, Radovid, the Wild Hunt bad villains compared to Cory...

 

About the side quest... This part is pretty subjective for everyone, if you like to take 30 mins of your life taking druffy to the farm again, or collect the fragments, or give a potion to the wife of some random villager is your likes, I prefer this kind of secondary mission:

giphy.gif

The only interesting secondary missions DA:I have are related to the main quest or the companion/romance, in Witcher 3 the 80% of the secondary mission are different (I am talking about the side quest, not the contracts I find them all the same)


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#90
In Exile

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Mmmm... "the religion is bad", In DA the religion is pretty much the cause of why the mages are like prisoners, there is a lot of sexism in the chantry (you are man?, templar, you are a woman?, sister, and the head of the chantry only can be a woman)

Well.. the politic is scummy, but beside the fact that it is, the game consider the politic boring because of Geralt.

Everyone sucks... well.. explain me who isn't an hypocrite in the game?, I can't find someone who don't suck, characters I love like Cassandra, Morrigan, Cullen, Alistair, Anders, they all are hypocrites sadly.

 

About the history and world design... There are 8 books of the Witcher, all of them connected to the game, sadly, the books of Dragon Age are... Well, how exactly "the silent grove" happens if I killed Alistair in the landsmeet?

I am not saying that there are no "lore breaking" in Witcher 3, you can romance Triss or not help anyone, things that the real Geralt never would do.

 

Well... the second part... I don't know what to say... if you consider the Crones, the Mirror man, Radovid, the Wild Hunt bad villains compared to Cory...

 

About the side quest... This part is pretty subjective for everyone, if you like to take 30 mins of your life taking druffy to the farm again, or collect the fragments, or give a potion to the wife of some random villager is your likes, I prefer this kind of secondary mission:

giphy.gif

The only interesting secondary missions DA:I have are related to the main quest or the companion/romance, in Witcher 3 the 80% of the secondary mission are different (I am talking about the side quest, not the contracts I find them all the same)

 

But this isn't just a side mission. You rightly point out this is like a companion quest. Well, just what do does TW3 not have? Companions. Where do you think those resources go? What else doesn't TW3 have? Multiple VO for protagonists, and gender choice. Where do you think all the resources that go into cut scenes for those varied builds and gender go? Those types of quests. 

 

Ignoring the huge benefit that CDPR has in paying their team in zloty and pulling in profits in USD/EURO (a difference you should actually see soon with Bioware given the rapid fall of the Canadian dollar, actually), they also allocate resources in other places. 

 

TW3 does have a lot of amazing side quests. But the resource spread is totally different too. 


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#91
GoldenGail3

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Why was the Witchers brought into this conversion? *sighs*

#92
sjsharp2011

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Said Ancient Magister has abandoned his Tevinter identity and self-identifies as a Darkspawn now. He's also probably forgotten he ever was one. Furthermore, he's spending a lot of his time attempting to awaken the Darkspawn. People forget the fact the Architect's whole shebang is making the Darkspawn into a race with free will and individuality.

 

His Tevinter origins are all but irrelevant.

 

People also tend to forget Corypheus is a Darkspawn as well as a Tevinter because he doesn't self-identify as a Darkspawn but the Architect certainly does. Honestly, I was hoping Corypheus would use his powers to summon an army of Darkspawn and grant them free will and souls because--well, that would have been AWESOME.

 

 

On this I agree.

 

I think DA takes some "influence" from the Warhammer Fantasy RPG (which is not an insult--every fantasy game takes something from Tolkien--DA also takes stuff from Martin). However, the Inquisition isn't depicted as an organization which has a ruthless side like the Warhammer Fantasy Inquisitors.

 

There's no torture chamber option in the basement or a, "Do I kill the kid possessed by the demon."

 

You'd think we'd have more Abominations to deal with, really.

Indeed I'm surprised he didn't go all Archdemony and try to get the darkspawn to assist him in keeping the Inquisitoin busy especially after Adamant when you take the Grey wardens from him.



#93
diaspora2k5

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I'm not going to lie, that side-story with the implications about Orson's dead wife in Fire Emblem Sacred Stones was really really dark.

 

edit: to this day, I'm not sure if Corypheus even knew what darkspawn were.



#94
Willowhugger

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People want to compare things.

 

The Witcher 3, honestly, was inferior to AOK in my opinion because it had a lot of the same problems I had with DI with its one-note one-dimensional main villain. I also wasn't too fond of the dramatically simplified politics which consisted of, "Crazy King should be killed. Evil Fantasy Nazi Empire should be allowed to conquer Fantasy Poland because everyone will be happy then."

 

But yes, Dragon Age: Origins was dark fantasy and felt like it had a lot more interactions and a lot more moral ambiguity. It also felt like the storytelling was deeper and had stronger themes as well as a great deal more grit.

 

Ditto Dragon Age 2.

 

I think dialing down the long patches of traveling to focus more on interacting with people in the game was a symptom rather than a cause but showed the game was more interested in set design than being able to get into the meat. I also think it was more interested in loftier ideals than the meat and potatoes of the world. Which is a shame because Varric and Sera were great characters for analyzing that.



#95
Guitar-Hero

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I never considered DA to be high, low, dark, light or what ever type of fantasy its just fantasy for me, like the notion of games being divided into genres so its easier for people to know what to expect from it. Its' not a "real" RPG because of blah, its not dark and **** because of mature whatever. Heres what i hear when people talk trivialize like this " it didn't make me feel". My love for W3 is no secret, but i dont love it because its mature or dark or whatever but because it made me feel, like the bloody baron quest i wanted to knock him on his ass when i found out what he was, or when G finally finds C it was heart-wrenching to watch and it made me think of the kind of father i want to be.

 

Experience is the operative word, is it a good experience or a bad experience.


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#96
Arshei

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But this isn't just a side mission. You rightly point out this is like a companion quest. Well, just what do does TW3 not have? Companions. Where do you think those resources go? What else doesn't TW3 have? Multiple VO for protagonists, and gender choice. Where do you think all the resources that go into cut scenes for those varied builds and gender go? Those types of quests. 

 

Ignoring the huge benefit that CDPR has in paying their team in zloty and pulling in profits in USD/EURO (a difference you should actually see soon with Bioware given the rapid fall of the Canadian dollar, actually), they also allocate resources in other places. 

 

TW3 does have a lot of amazing side quests. But the resource spread is totally different too. 

 

True enough about the differences in what they used their money, I totally forgot the game had a lot of romances and 4 voice actors.

 

But at least Witcher 3 cost just 47 dollars with the expansion, in DA:I they even sold us the ending of the game for 10 dollars.


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#97
diaspora2k5

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True enough about the differences in what they used their money, I totally forgot the game had a lot of romances.

 

But at least Witcher 3 cost just 47 dollars with the expansion, in DA:I they even sold us the ending of the game for 10 dollars.

No, they didn't.



#98
Arshei

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No, they didn't.

 

True, it is US$9,99. Ma fault.



#99
Al Foley

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I could go for the sarcastic "Wait Doom Upon the World was sold as DLC, who knew?"  

 

But instead I will just echo the sentiment.  No they didn't.  Trespasser was not the ending to DA I. 



#100
Arshei

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I could go for the sarcastic "Wait Doom Upon the World was sold as DLC, who knew?"  

 

But instead I will just echo the sentiment.  No they didn't.  Trespasser was not the ending to DA I. 

 

Well.. the title of the game is "Dragon age INQUISITION", what happens if the DLC?, you decide what happens with the Inquisitoin, Checkmate non-andrastians!