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[BansheeOwnage]

Champions has just as many plot holes regarding the templars, including but not limited to how they could miss a demon taking them over, the whole red lyrium bit, all of their officers being comically an corruptly evil, etc. And I can't agree that the Fade feels any more personal. It's a cool concept, but it's as alien as the bad future. I think both quests are underwhelming. 

To be fair, it would be pretty hard to spot Envy. If my superior officer started acting strangely, that probably wouldn't be my first suspicion as to why, even if I grew up in Thedas. And while I found the "in your head" sequence enjoyable, I do agree they could have done more with it. It didn't live up to its potential.

[Arshei]

Barris>Fiona.

Envy boss fight>Alexius boss fight.

Envy's invasion feels more personal than Inquisitor being pulled into bad future by accident.

IHW full of plot holes.

Templars helping to fight Envy>mages doing nothing (except whining).

Better horror elements in CotJ.

And as you said, time travel is bad and anyone who likes it should feel bad.

 

- You can't just kill Fiona, the only grey warden who survived the taint and the mother of Alistair for a random templar.

- The fight is more interesting with the ugly demon, but with Alexius we have more drama *Plus Dorian*

- You don't fell personal the fact that if you didn't could close the breach the world would be destroyed?, the mission basically tells you are the only hope of the fuc**** universe!

- It is, but I still don't understand why the templars followed blindly a madman, why they drink red lyrium?, they are only puppets for everyone?, you don't need intelligence to be a templar?, and why exactly a Lord Seeker would allow an envy demon to take his form?, he was always evil?

- Between the mages there are children, there are all the mages from the circle, they are not warriors, they are people, no one of them never asked to be a warrior like the templars did, if you choose to save the Chargers but you let the stupid mages be slaves of the Imperium... such a great Inquisitior.

- Yep, there are horror elements, and in this future you can see how would be the world if the veil didn't exist, the same thing Solas want to do now.

- If you side with the mages you have Samson as an enemy and a personal mission for Cullen ♥, not the ugly Calpernia, ugh those teeths

 

Fight an envy demon feels like the life of a nerd crying because he can't be popular.

[thats1evildude]

- You can't just kill Fiona, the only grey warden who survived the taint and the mother of Alistair for a random templar

I can and I did.

The Templars drank the red lyrium because they were lied to by their superiors. They had no reason to believe their commanders would turn them into monsters at the behest of an ancient darkspawn boogeyman.

Anyways, I don't need to see a theoretical dark future to know the stakes.

[Arshei]

I can and I did.

The Templars drank the red lyrium because they were lied to by their superiors. They had no reason to believe their commanders would turn them into monsters at the behest of an ancient darkspawn boogeyman.

Anyways, I don't need to see a theoretical dark future to know the stakes.

 

Is a requirement be naive to became a templar?

-----

To see who is better you just need to watch them dance

Mages -1 vs Templar - 0

[thats1evildude]

And now you've resorted to silliness in the face of my undeniable logic.

[Helmetto]

Not going to quote everyone because I'm lazy.

 

1) Time travel isn't bad in stories, and there are some very good time travel stories. In Hushed Whispers is just not one of them.

 

2) The templars as a whole did not blindly follow their leader. In fact, a lot of those who didn't 'mysteriously vanished' in such a way that it was readily explained as 'those damn mages.' In fact, Champions of the Just is ABOUT saving those who remain, who HAVEN'T become red lyrium sucking savages.

 

3) Considering that Fiona didn't even exist until later on, and was intro'd to us in a book that a lot of Dragon Age Fans may never read, I honestly couldn't care less about Fiona. She could've been the Inky's mother for all I care. Could honestly. Care less. She holds about as much plot importance as a sandwich, and having a plot coupon in her purse doesn't make her more important.

 

4) The only people I felt bad for were the people who didn't even want the stupid war in the first place, because they were basically being sold as slaves and would likely have no way of getting out of that sort of agreement without, you know, dying. See also: Tranquil.

 

I'm not going to say that Champions of the Just is the best thing since sliced bread, but of the two, Champions of the Just was just better executed than In Hushed Whispers

[Melbella]

And the personal aspect comes from Envy wanting to be YOU, to take your identity and become the Herald. Take away the Fade Rifts and IHW could theoretically be completed by anyone.

I like the "personal" aspect of CotJ but the quest format (timed) sucks. Also, Envy's plan is terrible because as soon as he tries and fails to close a rift (or refuses to do so) everyone, especially Solas, will know he's not really the Herald.

[Arshei]

And now you've resorted to silliness in the face of my undeniable logic.

 

Meredith, is that you?

[thats1evildude]

Envy's plan is terrible because as soon as he tries and fails to close a rift (or refuses to do so) everyone, especially Solas, will know he's not really the Herald.

Sort of irrelevant, since without the Herald, the Elder One's victory is inevitable. And he could do considerable damage while the ruse lasts.

[Knight of Dane]

- You can't just kill Fiona, the only grey warden who survived the taint and the mother of Alistair for a random templar.

 

You absolutely can. Bioware has gone nowhere with her character after repeatedly trying to show her off as competent and failing.

 

- The fight is more interesting with the ugly demon, but with Alexius we have more drama *Plus Dorian*

 

You get Dorian anyway. And no there is no drama, because we know it's a future that won't happen. That is why time travel is a writing sin. If Bioware actually cared for the dramatic effect, the time traveling detail would have been hidden until the end of the redcliffe castle story for a reveal.

 

- You don't fell personal the fact that if you didn't could close the breach the world would be destroyed?, the mission basically tells you are the only hope of the fuc**** universe!

 

That is not exclusive to the mage branch of the story. It's the same central focus of the Envy demon trying to possess you.

 

- It is, but I still don't understand why the templars followed blindly a madman, why they drink red lyrium?, they are only puppets for everyone?, you don't need intelligence to be a templar?, and why exactly a Lord Seeker would allow an envy demon to take his form?, he was always evil?

 

They tell you that in the story.

1) Templars often get new lyrium apparently this is a concept throughout history from Barris' words. Why question a practice with thousands of years behind it?

2) How mad do you think Lucius appeared to begin with? Their purpose was gone and the mages had gone rogue, what was their other options?

3) They are soldiers, as you are told from the story Lucius infected the leaders first and killed those that questioned his plan. When all leaders say "do" the pawns will follow.

4) What intelligence? All that was known was that a specific lyrium idol had crazed out Meredith. Besides, as Barris tells you some took it first and "proved" that it was harmless.

5) Lucius allowed the Envy demon to impersonate him so he could manage both the Templars and the Order of Fiery Promise.

 

- Between the mages there are children, there are all the mages from the circle, they are not warriors, they are people, no one of them never asked to be a warrior like the templars did, if you choose to save the Chargers but you let the stupid mages be slaves of the Imperium... such a great Inquisitior.

 

Fair point, and the reason why I most often do the mage mission. That does not make it a better mission in terms of enjoyability or its plot swiss cheese proof.

 

- Yep, there are horror elements, and in this future you can see how would be the world if the veil didn't exist, the same thing Solas want to do now.

 

No, if that was the world Solas was restoring why would he be fighting Corypheus with the Inqusiition to close it? Obviously the world the future shows is not the one Solas' intends to remake.

 

- If you side with the mages you have Samson as an enemy and a personal mission for Cullen ♥, not the ugly Calpernia, ugh those teeths

 

Opinion. I find Calpernia a much more compelling rival because you can influence her to turn away instead of just fighting her. She is her own character while Samson is just a vegetable on steroids.

[The Baconer]

2) How mad do you think Lucius appeared to begin with? Their purpose was gone and the mages had gone rogue, what was their other options?

 

They could have always done their jobs, what with all the demons running about (and all the action in the Hinterlands). Leaving the commoners out to dry and heading for middle-of-nowhere-Ferelden doesn't seem sane, or advisable, or worth consideration.

[Arshei]

You absolutely can. Bioware has gone nowhere with her character after repeatedly trying to show her off as competent and failing.

 

 

You get Dorian anyway. And no there is no drama, because we know it's a future that won't happen. That is why time travel is a writing sin. If Bioware actually cared for the dramatic effect, the time traveling detail would have been hidden until the end of the redcliffe castle story for a reveal.

 

 

That is not exclusive to the mage branch of the story. It's the same central focus of the Envy demon trying to possess you.

 

 

They tell you that in the story.

1) Templars often get new lyrium apparently this is a concept throughout history from Barris' words. Why question a practice with thousands of years behind it?

2) How mad do you think Lucius appeared to begin with? Their purpose was gone and the mages had gone rogue, what was their other options?

3) They are soldiers, as you are told from the story Lucius infected the leaders first and killed those that questioned his plan. When all leaders say "do" the pawns will follow.

4) What intelligence? All that was known was that a specific lyrium idol had crazed out Meredith. Besides, as Barris tells you some took it first and "proved" that it was harmless.

5) Lucius allowed the Envy demon to impersonate him so he could manage both the Templars and the Order of Fiery Promise.

 

 

Fair point, and the reason why I most often do the mage mission. That does not make it a better mission in terms of enjoyability or its plot swiss cheese proof.

 

 

No, if that was the world Solas was restoring why would he be fighting Corypheus with the Inqusiition to close it? Obviously the world the future shows is not the one Solas' intends to remake.

 

 

Opinion. I find Calpernia a much more compelling rival because you can influence her to turn away instead of just fighting her. She is her own character while Samson is just a vegetable on steroids.

 

[thats1evildude]

They could have always done their jobs, what with all the demons running about (and all the action in the Hinterlands). Leaving the commoners out to dry and heading for middle-of-nowhere-Ferelden doesn't seem sane, or advisable, or worth consideration.

Not everyone did agree with the decision. Even while you're out at Therinfal, some question why they're out in this dump.

But consider there were only four options in front of each templar when the Lord Seeker ordered them to gather at Therinfal:

1) Do what your superiors tell you and go to the fortress.
2) Go join the Inquisition, whom the Chantry has denounced as heretics.
3) Go join the crazies out in the Hinterlands. I hope you enjoy killing refugees.
4) Run away. Have fun dealing with that lyrium addiction on your own.

Given those options, is it any wonder so many followed orders and marched out to Therinfal?

[In Exile]

That's not a plot hole. Envy is a skilled doppelganger and it had help from both the Lord Seeker and Knight-Captain Denam. That was very well-explained. Besides, it fits in with how the Templars have lost their way.

And the personal aspect comes from Envy wanting to be YOU, to take your identity and become the Herald. Take away the Fade Rifts and IHW could theoretically be completed by anyone.

Templars are supposed to snuff out demons. Sure, other templars were - for entirely insane reasons - on its side, but that's something that makes the Fionna mess look like good writing. That's not really helping the case here. The time magic is "explained", but the explanation is dumb. It's much the same with the templar's mindless following of orders and their general inability to realize that their entire leadership has gone coo-coo for cocopuffs. 

 

I don't see how Envy wanting to BE you is any more personal than Alexius wanting to KILL you. The Fade sequence is a neat concept that ultimately didn't pay off too much for me, and I actually prefer the introduction of Cole in In Your Heart Shall Burn, who I think gives a far better send off to Rodrick. And I prefer the way it portrays the impending threat of Corypheus. 

[In Exile]

The Templars drank the red lyrium because they were lied to by their superiors. They had no reason to believe their commanders would turn them into monsters at the behest of an ancient darkspawn boogeyman

 

We thoughtlessly follow the orders of our superiors and imbibe mysterious substances while we watch them beat priests in public is no better than we allied with the obviously evil Tevinters for no apparent gain as a silly justification for the plot. 

[In Exile]

Not everyone did agree with the decision. Even while you're out at Therinfal, some question why they're out in this dump.

But consider there were only four options in front of each templar when the Lord Seeker ordered them to gather at Therinfal:

1) Do what your superiors tell you and go to the fortress.
2) Go join the Inquisition, whom the Chantry has denounced as heretics.
3) Go join the crazies out in the Hinterlands. I hope you enjoy killing refugees.
4) Run away. Have fun dealing with that lyrium addiction on your own.

Given those options, is it any wonder so many followed orders and marched out to Therinfal?

 

Yes, absolutely. 

[The Baconer]

They didn't have to leave their posts in the first place. The Templars at the Hasmal Circle were still receiving Lyrium. Heck, they could have stayed in Val Royeaux if they wanted, where both the Chantry and the locals were practically begging them to act as protection.

 

But no, we'll march for some warlord trying to stake a claim. 

[Arshei]

Not everyone did agree with the decision. Even while you're out at Therinfal, some question why they're out in this dump.

But consider there were only four options in front of each templar when the Lord Seeker ordered them to gather at Therinfal:

1) Do what your superiors tell you and go to the fortress.
2) Go join the Inquisition, whom the Chantry has denounced as heretics.
3) Go join the crazies out in the Hinterlands. I hope you enjoy killing refugees.
4) Run away. Have fun dealing with that lyrium addiction on your own.

Given those options, is it any wonder so many followed orders and marched out to Therinfal?

 

The box, THE BOX, pick the box!

[thats1evildude]

Templars cannot readily identify abominations or demons unless they are mutated horrors going on a killing rampage.

There is precedent for this: in Enemies Among Us, from Dragon Age 2. Cullen had no idea that the templar Wilmod was possessed, and they had no means of determining if Keran had been possessed either.

[Arshei]

Templars cannot readily identify abominations or demons unless they are mutated horrors going on a killing rampage.

There is precedent for this: in Enemies Among Us, from Dragon Age 2. Cullen had no idea that the templar Wilmod was possessed, and they had no means of determining if Keran had been possessed either.

 

Years of training and they only can recognize an abomination if it is a giant ugly thing screaming "Arghhh Grrr!"

[Lady Artifice]

Not everyone did agree with the decision. Even while you're out at Therinfal, some question why they're out in this dump.

But consider there were only four options in front of each templar when the Lord Seeker ordered them to gather at Therinfal:

1) Do what your superiors tell you and go to the fortress.
2) Go join the Inquisition, whom the Chantry has denounced as heretics.
3) Go join the crazies out in the Hinterlands. I hope you enjoy killing refugees.
4) Run away. Have fun dealing with that lyrium addiction on your own.

Given those options, is it any wonder so many followed orders and marched out to Therinfal?

 

I'm not saying you don't have a point, but...

 

5) Stay with the fractured Chantry that's desperately in need of your help and protection? 

[In Exile]

Templars cannot readily identify abominations or demons unless they are mutated horrors going on a killing rampage.

There is precedent for this: in Enemies Among Us, from Dragon Age 2. Cullen had no idea that the templar Wilmod was possessed, and they had no means of determining if Keran had been possessed either.

What you mean is, they're completely useless at the one job that they're supposed to be doing? Protecting Thedas from mages turned abominations? 

[Arshei]

What you mean is, they're completely useless at the one job that they're supposed to be doing? Protecting Thedas from mages turned abominations? 

 

DA:O = Templars can't control the circle of Ferelden and his solution is kill everything

DA:A = Templars can't control Anders and his solution is kill The Hero of Ferelden/Queen of Ferelden/Mistress of the King/Prince consort/Commander Grey Warden/Chancellor/Noble wo/man

DA:2 = Templars can't control blood mages in Kirkwall and his solution is kill everything

DA:I = Templars are tired of not being rewarded for his obvious excellent work and start to kill everything and depending on the player they can be the army who want to destroy the world

[thats1evildude]

What you mean is, they're completely useless at the one job that they're supposed to be doing? Protecting Thedas from mages turned abominations?

I know. With how hard it can be to identify abominations, you'd think it would be more secure to keep all the mages in an enclosure where they could be watched? Maybe a tower out on a lake? Maybe a ... circular building of some kind?

[In Exile]

DA:O = Templars can't control the circle of Ferelden and his solution is kill everything

DA:2 = Templars can't control blood mages in Kirkwall and his solution is kill everything

DA:I = Templars are tired of not being rewarded for his obvious excellent work and start to kill everything and depending on the player they can be the army who can destroy the world

 

I'm just struggling with the idea that templars can't stuff out demons. In theory, that would mean that a sufficiently clever group of demons could turn a Circle into, 100% pure, abominations right under the templars noses if they're just careful enough.